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saltytri
04-09-2017, 05:46 AM
Over on the Luthier's Forum, Michael N. posted some good information on his use of UV to cure Tru-Oil and other varnish finishes. This advice got me going on putting together a UV cabinet. It turns out that a 30 gallon garbage can is an easy way to make a suitable enclosure. It's the right size for ukes up to the baritone and has the additional advantage of good internal reflectivity without having to add reflective material. The tubes are 24" BL350 fluorescents that are readily available on line but probably won't be found at your local hardware store. Ready-made fixtures that incorporate ballasts are available but it's less expensive to buy the end sockets (called "tombstones") and ballasts separately and just screw them to the walls of the can. This also lets the ballasts be mounted on the exterior to keep heat on the outside. I found ballasts that drive two bulbs and that also saved some money. Without ventilation, the internal temperature stabilized at 88F, which seemed a little warm so a quiet, low-volume muffin fan was added along with holes at the bottom of the can to allow air to be drawn. A filter was added to keep dust out. It plugs into an inexpensive mechanical timer so that I can leave it unattended.

So far, I've found that it cures both Tru-Oil and poly. As Michael says, it really does speed up the finishing process. Here is the link to his comments:

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49036&hilit=michael+uv


And, please hold your fire about "garbage can ukuleles." :)


https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2885/33802664031_46173a7bd5_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3934/33547522460_2cbaf89b7c_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2851/33802666991_8d4fb79766_z.jpg

Timbuck
04-09-2017, 09:58 AM
Very nice job ...I hope that the can is fully grounded / earthed :rolleyes:

saltytri
04-09-2017, 01:06 PM
Yes, indeed, it is. I'd be shocked if it weren't. It's always good to have reminders of such things, though.

sequoia
04-09-2017, 06:20 PM
Very informative post. Actually slickest idea as I've seen in awhile.... Dumb question: Does UV work on non-synthetic finishes like shellac? I'm thinking not since that is more an evaportive thing than a curing thing.

saltytri
04-09-2017, 06:53 PM
I haven't tried it on shellac. I vaguely recall reading that UV has little or no effect on it, probably for the reason that you identified. The alcohol is gone pretty quickly.

Michael N.
04-09-2017, 08:32 PM
It might work on shellac. I've noticed that it shrinks back much faster than otherwise. That could be the elevated heat inside the cabinet rather than the UV though.

Timbuck
04-09-2017, 09:56 PM
You could grow Cannabis in that as well ;)

saltytri
04-10-2017, 03:37 AM
True, Ken, then I wouldn't get much done in the shop and whatever I did manage to get done would be crooked, upside down and inside out. ;)

jcalkin
04-10-2017, 04:53 AM
I gave up on wipe on/wipe off finishing long ago. It doesn't make sense to wipe off most of the finish just to keep it level. After trying wipe-and-leave to get a faster build I tried spraying. A cheap airbrush worked great, and it was almost magical how well it layed out. Then I got a tip to try Formby's Tung Oil Varnish, and I think I'm done with Tru Oil. After the second spray coat of Formby's it can be dry sanded to cut it back a bit to start eliminating pore dimples. When left over night it powders off without clogging the 320 grit. Tru Oil almost needs to be wet sanded to keep it from clogging the paper. Way back in gunsmithing school an instructor insisted that tung oil dried harder than any linseed oil varnish, and it seems to me that it dries harder and faster. Plus, you can find the Formby's in any hardware store.

How much money do you have invested in your trash can UV unit? It looks to me like a hot setup.

saltytri
04-10-2017, 05:56 AM
A quick tally of expenses shows about $140.

Thanks for passing on the tip about Formby's. The world of wiping varnishes is more than a little confusing, in large part because the manufacturers aren't interested in telling us what their formulations are. But the proof is in the pudding so I'll give it a try.

Michael N.
04-10-2017, 09:41 AM
I gave up on wipe on/wipe off finishing long ago. It doesn't make sense to wipe off most of the finish just to keep it level. After trying wipe-and-leave to get a faster build I tried spraying. A cheap airbrush worked great, and it was almost magical how well it layed out. Then I got a tip to try Formby's Tung Oil Varnish, and I think I'm done with Tru Oil. After the second spray coat of Formby's it can be dry sanded to cut it back a bit to start eliminating pore dimples. When left over night it powders off without clogging the 320 grit. Tru Oil almost needs to be wet sanded to keep it from clogging the paper. Way back in gunsmithing school an instructor insisted that tung oil dried harder than any linseed oil varnish, and it seems to me that it dries harder and faster. Plus, you can find the Formby's in any hardware store.
How much money do you have invested in your trash can UV unit? It looks to me like a hot setup.

I doubt it's got anything to do with the type of oil. Tung oil finish isn't necessarily the same as tung oil varnish. There's a huge difference between pure tung oil and a tung oil mixed with resin i.e. made into a varnish. Linseed is no different. Use a high resin content and that type of varnish can get very hard and brittle. It's the proportions of these things that makes the difference, that and the type of resin. Tung oil has a better reputation than linseed in wet conditions, which is why you tend to find it in marine varnishes.

saltytri
04-10-2017, 04:03 PM
It occurred to me that I shouldn't toss this UV idea out there without a warning that looking at the light is a poor move. So, I made an effort to keep the light in the garbage can by covering all places where it could be seen. Also, I keep a pair of UV-protective glasses close at hand for the times when I take the lid off to inspect the workpiece while the timer is running:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003OBZ64M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

sequoia
04-10-2017, 06:48 PM
Also, I keep a pair of UV-protective glasses close at hand for the times when I take the lid off to inspect the workpiece while the timer is running:


I love the vision of the luthier opening the UV can with sunglasses on. So science fiction. Wild hair and wearing a white lab coat. Love it.... But seriously, UV works because the big guys use it. It is a chemical physics thang that I don't completely understand. Something about cross linking polymers.... As for Formby's tung oil: I have used the stuff for years (the low gloss) on all sorts of wood and it works great. I have no idea what it is and Formby's ain't sayin. Very expensive of course for what you get. I still use it on my bridges which I don't want to be too shiny but look nice. That is the only place I use it anymore. The glossy stuff isn't as nice looking in my opinion. Really a good simple alternative that gives a nice looking and good sounding finish to an uke project. Impossible to screw up a tung oil finish and it is quick. Just don't overdo it.

jcalkin
04-11-2017, 06:20 AM
I love the vision of the luthier opening the UV can with sunglasses on. So science fiction. Wild hair and wearing a white lab coat. Love it.... But seriously, UV works because the big guys use it. It is a chemical physics thang that I don't completely understand. Something about cross linking polymers.... As for Formby's tung oil: I have used the stuff for years (the low gloss) on all sorts of wood and it works great. I have no idea what it is and Formby's ain't sayin. Very expensive of course for what you get. I still use it on my bridges which I don't want to be too shiny but look nice. That is the only place I use it anymore. The glossy stuff isn't as nice looking in my opinion. Really a good simple alternative that gives a nice looking and good sounding finish to an uke project. Impossible to screw up a tung oil finish and it is quick. Just don't overdo it.

Formby's is a bit cheaper than Tru Oil, sprays better and sands cleaner. Its as easy to screw up as any sprayed finish, but way more forgiving than nitro lacquer. I don't know what "just don't overdo it" means in this case. I don't wipe the stuff back off unless I get a runny coating, in which case I wipe it quickly with paper towels and shoot another coat. No harm done. The high gloss is beautiful, as pretty as lacquer. If I'm after a satin finish I spray Satin Min-Wax Wipe-On Poly, which gives a nice protective build after 2-3 coats and (with luck) requires no work after the last coat. If you can't spray for some reason you are stuck with applying with fingers, rags, or a brush, all of which are obsolete wastes of time.

fungusgeek
04-11-2017, 12:52 PM
I find "Formby's Tung Oil Finish" but not "Formby's Tung Oil Varnish". Are there two different products, or is "Formby's Tung Oil Finish" what is being discussed?

sequoia
04-11-2017, 07:22 PM
I find "Formby's Tung Oil Finish" but not "Formby's Tung Oil Varnish". Are there two different products, or is "Formby's Tung Oil Finish" what is being discussed?

It is called "Formby's Tung Oil Finish"... Now the knock against Formbys by finish carpenters that I've known is not that the stuff is not any good, and it is good, but how much the stuff is over priced. There are other similar tung oil finishes that do the same job at a fraction of the price but they aren't "Formby's".

Now John, what I meant by "don't over do it" is that after 4 or 5 coats you are pretty much done. It is an oil based finish and one gets to diminishing returns pretty quick. I also do not agree that applying the stuff with cloths (rags) is an absolute waste of time. I think it works just fine and will give the inexperienced finisher a perfectly acceptable finish without resorting to elaborate spraying equipment.

My problem with this finish is not so much as how it looks as how it effects the sound of the ukulele.

saltytri
04-11-2017, 08:09 PM
My problem with this finish is not so much as how it looks as how it effects the sound of the ukulele.

What's the problem?

Michael N.
04-11-2017, 11:21 PM
What's the problem?

Who knows? Oil supposedly has greater dampening. I used to apply a wipe on oil finish to lute type instruments, direct on to the spruce soundboards. I can't say I ever noticed that it was detrimental to the sound, neither did the customers who bought them. Now the interesting thing is that these are extremely low tension strings, they have very limited energy. It's like playing on elastic bands. If you can't notice it on those, when can you? If you are worried then apply a sealer coat (or two) of shellac.

As for 'tung oil finishes', it can be confusing. I think in the Formby's case it's very likely tung oil with a modern resin, perhaps a urethane. I don't know because I've never used the stuff. I'm guessing that it's not unlike the Liberon finishing oil or some types of Danish oils. The liberon obviously contains tung (I can smell it) and a type of resin - it builds too quickly to just be oil by itself. Most Danish oils are practically the same type of thing. I have a Danish oil that again obviously contains tung. In fact on the tin it states that it's a mixture of oils and resins. I can't smell linseed but there certainly is a strong smell of tung. If you've ever used pure tung oil (just the oil) the smell is obvious.
As for spraying, wiping, brushing. Whatever. They all work. Wiping and brushing has the big advantage in that they are very simple. Even a good brush at 20 will last a lifetime or even two. There's not a lot to dislike. I can brush on 12 coats of Tru oil and it takes very little time at all - a few minutes per coat. There are brush marks but they are pretty shallow, it doesn't take much to rub them out. Having said all that I tend to use shellac, which in tests I found resists scratches better - apart from the very hard oil finishes such as rockhard.

jcalkin
04-12-2017, 06:38 AM
Who knows? Oil supposedly has greater dampening. I used to apply a wipe on oil finish to lute type instruments, direct on to the spruce soundboards. I can't say I ever noticed that it was detrimental to the sound, neither did the customers who bought them. Now the interesting thing is that these are extremely low tension strings, they have very limited energy. It's like playing on elastic bands. If you can't notice it on those, when can you? If you are worried then apply a sealer coat (or two) of shellac.

As for 'tung oil finishes', it can be confusing. I think in the Formby's case it's very likely tung oil with a modern resin, perhaps a urethane. I don't know because I've never used the stuff. I'm guessing that it's not unlike the Liberon finishing oil or some types of Danish oils. The liberon obviously contains tung (I can smell it) and a type of resin - it builds too quickly to just be oil by itself. Most Danish oils are practically the same type of thing. I have a Danish oil that again obviously contains tung. In fact on the tin it states that it's a mixture of oils and resins. I can't smell linseed but there certainly is a strong smell of tung. If you've ever used pure tung oil (just the oil) the smell is obvious.
As for spraying, wiping, brushing. Whatever. They all work. Wiping and brushing has the big advantage in that they are very simple. Even a good brush at 20 will last a lifetime or even two. There's not a lot to dislike. I can brush on 12 coats of Tru oil and it takes very little time at all - a few minutes per coat. There are brush marks but they are pretty shallow, it doesn't take much to rub them out. Having said all that I tend to use shellac, which in tests I found resists scratches better - apart from the very hard oil finishes such as rockhard.

The Formby's is called a finish. Right under that it says varnish. Its nothing like a Danish oil, which never builds much above the wood, and which I haven't used on instruments for decades. I've included photos of a uke after two spray session with Formby's, trying to catch the reflection. After five sessions it should be done. A friend of mine worked for awhile in the finish room at Collings. For a significant upcharge Collings will finish their instruments in varnish. Rather than some arcane violin makers varnish, they spray on a bar top variety. I used that back in my dulcimer days, spraying it on with a blow pipe. Its very hard after curing.

Its hard for me to understand why anyone with room to spray would use any other method. The airbrush in the photo cost me less than $15 at Big Lots several years ago. Stew-Mac sells the exact same airbrush in a much nicer kit for about $25 (I just bought one). For technical sorts of work, like photo retouching, its a piece of junk. For spraying small instruments its fine. A small air compressor with a holding tank for the air can be had in the $65-$80 range. So anyone inclined to spray can get into the game for approx. $100. Spraying a neck takes less than 30 seconds, a uke body less than two minutes. I should time them to get real figures, but its a small detail.

The collection of finishing materials is stuff I'm trying for a story on uke making. There's no lacquer or quality shellac included because I have nothing new to say about them.

Michael N.
04-12-2017, 09:45 AM
Danish oil will build. . . if it contains a resin. The mistake you are making is assuming that all Danish oils are the same. They are not. Some contain a resin, others are just a mix of drying oils. Anything that contains oil and a reasonable proportion of a resin will build. There's no one single definition of 'Danish oil'. In the broader sense it simply means a wipe on finish, as opposed to a brushed on finish, which tends to contain less solvent. The actual ingredients of a wipe on finish and a 'varnish' can be exactly the same.

jcalkin
04-12-2017, 09:57 AM
Danish oil will build. . . if it contains a resin. The mistake you are making is assuming that all Danish oils are the same. They are not. Some contain a resin, others are just a mix of drying oils. Anything that contains oil and a reasonable proportion of a resin will build. There's no one single definition of 'Danish oil'. In the broader sense it simply means a wipe on finish, as opposed to a brushed on finish, which tends to contain less solvent. The actual ingredients of a wipe on finish and a 'varnish' can be exactly the same.

I get that, Michael, but anything that is wipe on/wipe off will give a very poor build. It enriches the look of the wood but offers scant protection to the surface. Without renewing the finish at some point the project will look and feel like smooth raw wood with no luster.. I've found it difficult to sell instruments with such a finish.

sequoia
04-12-2017, 07:55 PM
What's the problem?

You know that is a good question. I've used tung oil on wood and the sound was fine. I just refer to the "collective wisdom" that oil will dampen the sound. I have no evidence that this is so nor have I encountered it because I don't use the stuff anymore. Maybe it is just a prejudice and I'm not going to say that "oil" dampens a soundboard because I'm not sure that is true. Shrug. It all becomes a subjective judgement and I suspect the effect is small.

I think the bottom line of this thread should be: Tung oil is a great finish for the hobbyist/first timer/casual builder to use and can be applied a number of ways including a rag and still get a good looking, good sounding finish with a minimum of experience, cost and work. It is pretty close to fool-proof. The only other negative I can think of is that once you lay down that tung oil, you are committed to using oil from that point on. You can't really decide that after putting on a tung oil finish decide you want to try shellac or nitro or...

saltytri
04-12-2017, 08:28 PM
There is no collective wisdom that "oil" dampens sound and this is emphatically true when "oil" is used loosely to include a wide range of finishes with disparate characteristics. Formby's and Tru-Oil are wiping varnishes that harden. Given the confusion out there that sellers of finishes often don't try to dispel, some people might miss the point that products that are marketed as "tung oil" don't necessarily have much to do with tung oil. Formby's and Tru-Oil are as different from tung oil as cats are different from cattails.

Just trying to keep my thread from going off on a wild ride on the wrong bus. :)

Michael N.
04-13-2017, 12:54 AM
I have a tin of pure tung oil (that's the oil by itself, nothing else added). It would take dozens of coats to obtain any sort of build and likely the resulting finish would be on the soft side.
If you look at instructions for making your own 'Danish oil' or wiping varnish the usual advice is to buy an ordinary tin of oil varnish and thin it down with a solvent like turpentine. That can be the difference between an oil varnish and a Danish oil/wiping varnish - just the amount of solvent. The end product, when the solvent has evaporated, will be exactly the same. The difference is that the oil varnish is brushed on in a much thicker coat. The wipe on is thinner but tends to go on in a more even coat. The latter requires more applications.
Now we come on to the terminology of 'Danish oil' and other oil type finishes. It can mean virtually anything. Manufacturers use the terms as it suits them. You have to look at the small print to see whether the stuff is just a drying oil or a drying oil that also contains a resin. Don't take a blind bit of notice of the large letters on the front of the tin. Resins are hard, tend to be glossy and they build quickly. Oils are thin, flexible and relatively soft. It's fairly obvious what each component brings to the mix. In other words don't expect an oil only finish to build quickly, be very hard and very glossy. It isn't going to happen.
As for oil dampening sound. There have been tests done that show this, by Martin Schleske the violin maker. The question then becomes a matter of whether we can hear that difference. I'm not sure that we can but if you want to play it safe it's a simple matter of placing a sealer coat under the oil finish. That's what the violin makers do. I also do it on soundboards but not on the back/sides where I want the oil to pop the grain.

jcalkin
04-13-2017, 03:46 AM
You know that is a good question. I've used tung oil on wood and the sound was fine. I just refer to the "collective wisdom" that oil will dampen the sound. I have no evidence that this is so nor have I encountered it because I don't use the stuff anymore. Maybe it is just a prejudice and I'm not going to say that "oil" dampens a soundboard because I'm not sure that is true. Shrug. It all becomes a subjective judgement and I suspect the effect is small.

I think the bottom line of this thread should be: Tung oil is a great finish for the hobbyist/first timer/casual builder to use and can be applied a number of ways including a rag and still get a good looking, good sounding finish with a minimum of experience, cost and work. It is pretty close to fool-proof. The only other negative I can think of is that once you lay down that tung oil, you are committed to using oil from that point on. You can't really decide that after putting on a tung oil finish decide you want to try shellac or nitro or...

Wrong. I've sprayed nitro over my Danish oil intruments after the oil has dried well and the wood has taken a desicated, raw look. No problems involved. I don't know how much earlier in the life of Danish oil I could have done this. I don't finish with shellac, but as oil is involved in getting a build without the tampon sticking to the surface I suspect the shellac might stick to an oil finish. But again, I don't know from experience.

sequoia
04-13-2017, 09:51 PM
I really wonder sometimes how much a "finish" has to do with how an instrument sounds. I suspect much less than we like to think. The sound has a lot more to do with the soundboard thickness and the bracing than anything we slather on the outside. There for I like to put on a pretty finish on the instrument and that means shiny, shiny and that means shellac.... what was the original thread? I think I forgot.

99304

saltytri
04-14-2017, 04:12 AM
Whatever the original excuse was for the thread, it's been great to give Michael and John a reason to pass on some of what they know about finishing. :)

southcoastukes
04-20-2017, 06:32 PM
First of all David, Congratulations on your "cure cabinet". Very nifty!

I've probably spent more years in finish work and formulation than anything else; there are a lot of good observations by Michael & John - I'll add a bit to those.

Yes, Danish Oil is pretty much useless as a specific description and "Tung Oil" is very seldom simply that. I've used the pure oil before; it will build, but the soft tendencies Michael spoke of will be a big problem without totally impractical dry times between coats.

As far as shellac sticking to an oil finish, depends on what formula and again, how long it has cured. Works better the other way around.

And so most important to this thread, is that I do believe there is a (slightly) discernible difference in soundboard response when most "oil" varnishes are applied directly to a soundboard; most especially softwood. I would recommend one coat of shellac first. When we used oil varnish (made up from our own resin mix) since we did shellac first for the soundboard; at that point, though it was likely unnecessary, it was no big deal to do it to the body as well.

The plus is that this yields a very flexible, yet still very protective coating, as violin makers always aspire to.

saltytri
04-20-2017, 06:37 PM
Good point on the use of shellac as the first coat, Dirk. I aways do that, usually well before the actual finishing phase. It helps to protect the top a bit and to keep it clean.

Ken Franklin
04-24-2017, 11:05 PM
Wrong. I've sprayed nitro over my Danish oil intruments after the oil has dried well and the wood has taken a desicated, raw look. No problems involved. I don't know how much earlier in the life of Danish oil I could have done this. I don't finish with shellac, but as oil is involved in getting a build without the tampon sticking to the surface I suspect the shellac might stick to an oil finish. But again, I don't know from experience.

French polishing over oil varnish with shellac is exactly what a high end mandolin maker I know does. He says it's the traditional finish for the instrument and I saw Len Dudenbostl do the same in a a video on making mandolins.

Michael N.
04-25-2017, 01:48 AM
Just over a week ago I dug out an old bottle of pine resin varnish that I made 7 or 8 years ago. I slapped some on a bit of ebony and placed it outdoors in direct sunlight. We had a decent few days of sunshine but it's been under cloudy weather since. I've just left it there day and night. For some reason this stuff is proving to be quite a bit harder than I remembered it. Most of these violin type varnishes tend to be a bit on the soft side for us plucked instrument players. Either my memory of it is wrong or it's somehow matured in the bottle. The smell of the varnish in incredible, worth using on that basis alone!
I vowed never to make the stuff ever again (acrid fumes and it's dangerous) but I'm almost tempted. . . .

Wildestcat
04-25-2017, 10:58 PM
Having now read this together with the Luthiers Forum post, I'm thinking that leaving Tru-oil to cure in the dark in a windowless workshop may not be such a good idea?
I wasn't aware of the influence of light on curing oil finishes - I just assumed solvent evaporation given a warmish dry environment would be enough. Given what I have learned here I doubt I have been leaving my instruments long enough to cure fully before re-coating or buffing out, which may explain apparent softening of the Tru-oil finish on the back of some necks. The idea of taking bits of instrument into the house to cure in daylight isn't going to go down very well with her ladyship though!

Michael N.
04-26-2017, 12:09 AM
Tru Oil has an added chemical drier, which is why it does dry without much light. UV just speeds it up. Dry isn't necessarily fully cured though. Fully cured happens over a period of months (perhaps years) but of course diminishing returns (in terms of hardness) is going to set in just after it's touch dry. In other words it's not going to continually harden to the point that it becomes something like an extremely hard floor varnish!
Whether UV hastens this hardening process is open for debate. I, along with others, suspect that it does but I'm not sure we can state it as fact.

sequoia
04-27-2017, 06:53 PM
I think we have to define terms: There is "drying" and then there is "curing" of finish's. Drying is an evaporative process where a solvent (such as water or alcohol or whatever) evaporates and leaves behind a substance. Evaporation is a function of time and temperature and relative humidity. Curing however involves no evaporation but a chemical cross linking bond that is formed between molecules. Think epoxy or CA. And then there are finishes that are a combination of the two such as nitrocellulose which is a combination of the two. UV does not effect evaporation but it does hasten chemical cross linking and thus hardening of the finish. Therefore, an evaporative finish is not going to harden any faster with UV radiation.

However, modern finishes (I think) are a combination of evaporative finishes mixed with cross-linking finishes so they would "cure" with UV. I also think that UV is a quick fix but one could over do it and create a brittle or over cured finish. UV radiation is powerful stuff and can destroy as well as cure. Think sun burn.

Michael N.
04-27-2017, 09:58 PM
Shellac is an example of an evaporative finish. Eventually it can become impervious to it's solvent, so presumably it can also cure.
I've yet to experience or hear of one single problem with UV curing. Any problems usually come with varnishes that have added driers where the film dries from the top down. Hard on top, soft underneath can be a recipe for cracking. Unlikely with something like Tru oil which is put on in extremely thin coats. The UV is similar to the UV that you experience on a sunny day but out of direct sunlight. In other words my varnish cures just as quick outdoors (maybe a bit faster) as it does in my UV cabinet.

saltytri
04-28-2017, 04:54 AM
Very early on, I tried that. I hadn't yet figured out that oil often doesn't cure on certain woods. I put Tru-Oil on a Bolivian rosewood tenor and when it remained gummy, I put it out in the sun. Too much sun. For too long. The back cracked. Lesson learned. I fixed it and it was a great player for a long time. Eventually gave it to a kid who played the heck out it.

That's why I put a fan in my garbage can to pull out the heat.

Timbuck
04-28-2017, 05:25 AM
I'm told there is a lot of UV in sunlight ..You guys that live in sunny areas can just hang e'm from trees ;)...I'll have to get one of these http://green-qube.com/roof-qube/

saltytri
04-28-2017, 05:55 AM
"The WORLD’S ONLY grow tent for attics, lofts and basements is now here."

Nice! I wonder how many of these could be sold here in the land of "grow your own"?