Timms vs. Kiwaya

I've had two questions today about the differences between these to ukes, so I thought there might be interest in my opinions. And it happens, that because my Timms is up for sale, and I'm worried about losing it, I've been doing a lot of obsessive A/B testing of the two instruments, so I know what I'm losing.

First, neither is better than the other, and their differences aren't great. The Timms has a thicker neck. Its body is deeper, but narrower at the butt end, so in terms of physical volume, I suspect they are about the same. It doesn't have side markers. The frets are about the same; short and thin. The tuners are about the same; high quality friction. The fit and finish is perfect on both. The nut is the same width.

The action on the Timms is a bit higher than the Kiwaya, but it is very comfortable, easy to bar, etc. Because of the slightly higher action, the Timms is more forgiving of sloppy fretting, the Kiwaya can buzz if you misplace your fingers or timing. So can the Timms, of course, it just tends to do it less.

In sound, I think the Timms is louder. I can never be sure. It is brasher. In a good way. I love how it sounds. I can't compare either of them to a vintage Martin because I haven't played one of those. They are both plenty jangly and bright, but the Kiwaya has a sweeter sound. Not better, just a little sweeter. I also love how it sounds.

In the end, if they were substantially different, I'd keep both. But they are so much alike, that I can't see a reason to do that. Unless you are doing A/B testing, I doubt you would hear any difference between them. They have the same great playability, but again, slightly different. The major difference there is the neck.

So if you're wondering why I'm keeping the Kiwaya and not the Timms, I am too. It's really a coin toss between them, but for some ineffable reason I prefer the Kiwaya--maybe the neck? the body?--and I'm certain there are many who'd choose the Timms instead, and maybe for the same reason.

I'm happy to hear any disagreements, these are just my opinions and I'm no expert, and it's an interesting topic of discussion (at least to me).

Personally I would keep the Timms. Actually, I'd keep both unless you have to sell one. But you can always get Kiwaya, maybe not as easy to replace the Timms.

John

Edit: Just read that they are redundant so you don't need both. While that seems like good rationale, when one is gone it's gone. For a lot of people that logic isn't a good argument. The time you spent on your post probably doesn't support it since you are having second thoughts. And no amount of A/B will give you the answer.

Another way to look at it is that you can't choose wrong.

It's a heck of a lot easier to get another Kiwaya than it is to get another Timms...



Scooter

I have nothing to offer to help with your decision, but I agree this is an interesting topic for a post. I picked up my first Kiwaya soprano a short while ago and soon thereafter saw a listing for a Timms with extended fretboard, and wondered if I should get both and A/B them. I didn't, because there wasn't a try-before-you-buy option for the Timms, and after reading your post, I'm glad I stopped myself. The thicker neck may well have been a dealbreaker (not a fan of thick necks at all). The Kiwaya neck is pretty much perfect.

But I know what you mean about the buzz from sloppy fretting - I've played Kamakas pretty much exclusively since I began playing, and they are considerably more forgiving that my Kiwayas seem to be! Motivation to play better

There's no question here, and I didn't ask for advice, but maybe I worded it so I seemed to. I've made up my mind. I just wanted to get my thoughts down and share them while I still have both in case anyone else wanted to know the differences. Even wonderful instruments aren't right for every player.

70sSanO said:

Personally I would keep the Timms. Actually, I'd keep both unless you have to sell one. But you can always get Kiwaya, maybe not as easy to replace the Timms.

John

Edit: Just read that they are redundant so you don't need both. While that seems like good rationale, when one is gone it's gone. For a lot of people that logic isn't a good argument. The time you spent on your post probably doesn't support it since you are having second thoughts. And no amount of A/B will give you the answer.

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I'm not having second thoughts. I simply wrote this to share information. I'm having second thoughts about that, though.

I don't need two great mahogany sopranos. I like the Kiwaya better or I would be selling it. It's more comfortable for me to play. I was trying to be even handed in my appraisal of each, but I simply like playing the Kiwaya more. It feels better to me in the size and the neck. They both sound great, but I like how the Kiwaya sounds better. I had made my mind up about all that some time ago, but while I have them both, I thought I'd share my A/B evaluation, leaving my personal preference for neck, shape, size and sound out. The Kiwaya is 15-20 years older than the Timms, and its sound is more mature. In 15-20 years, the Timms may sound like that, but I'll probably be dead.

janeray1940 said:

I have nothing to offer to help with your decision, but I agree this is an interesting topic for a post. I picked up my first Kiwaya soprano a short while ago and soon thereafter saw a listing for a Timms with extended fretboard, and wondered if I should get both and A/B them. I didn't, because there wasn't a try-before-you-buy option for the Timms, and after reading your post, I'm glad I stopped myself. The thicker neck may well have been a dealbreaker (not a fan of thick necks at all). The Kiwaya neck is pretty much perfect.

But I know what you mean about the buzz from sloppy fretting - I've played Kamakas pretty much exclusively since I began playing, and they are considerably more forgiving that my Kiwayas seem to be! Motivation to play better

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Jane, yes, I think it has made me a better player. And faster than I thought it would. I love the Kiwaya neck, too. Because I crushed my thumb last year, playing thick necks hurts. I'm hoping to fund a Kamaka with this sale, or sometime in the future, so I am interested in your opinions on that. What are the necks like on them? I'm a wary of the vintage ones, because I don't know enough about them, but I think the new ones are out of reach, financially, and I have yet to see a current model used.

Ziret said:

Jane, yes, I think it has made me a better player. And faster than I thought it would. I love the Kiwaya neck, too. Because I crushed my thumb last year, playing thick necks hurts. I'm hoping to fund a Kamaka with this sale, or sometime in the future, so I am interested in your opinions on that. What are the necks like on them? I'm a wary of the vintage ones, because I don't know enough about them, but I think the new ones are out of reach, financially, and I have yet to see a current model used.

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The vintage ones I've encountered have been somewhat hit or miss, especially the early 1980s era. But anything 2000 or later might be a good bet - I'd recommend a soprano pineapple for something completely different than your other ukes! The necks are pretty similar to the Kiwaya I think - I don't feel a lot of difference between the two and I think the nut widths are the same. Kiwaya and Kamaka are the two most comfortable brands to play that I've encountered.

As for finding them used, I've actually bought three Kamakas used (Craigslist and eBay), and have sold three via the Marketplace over the years. They do come up from time to time but you're right, I haven't seen many late models for sale here lately.

janeray1940 said:

The vintage ones I've encountered have been somewhat hit or miss, especially the early 1980s era. But anything 2000 or later might be a good bet - I'd recommend a soprano pineapple for something completely different than your other ukes! The necks are pretty similar to the Kiwaya I think - I don't feel a lot of difference between the two and I think the nut widths are the same. Kiwaya and Kamaka are the two most comfortable brands to play that I've encountered.

As for finding them used, I've actually bought three Kamakas used (Craigslist and eBay), and have sold three via the Marketplace over the years. They do come up from time to time but you're right, I haven't seen many late models for sale here lately.

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OK, thanks. If I get a chance for one, I'll consult you via PM, if that's OK. And the pineapple is a good idea, something I had considered, too. It kind of depends how much patience I have.

janeray1940 said:

The thicker neck may well have been a dealbreaker (not a fan of thick necks at all). The Kiwaya neck is pretty much perfect.

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I have not played a Kiwaya so I can't directly compare, but don't let the "thicker neck" pice of the review scare you off. It is by no means a thick neck. I too am not a fan of thick necks and would never call a Timms neck thick. I have a gold label Kamaka soprano and they are very similar in shape and size.

I've owned two Timms and three Kiwayas (KTS-7, KTS-5 and KS-5). Based on my experience, I agree with your assessment that the Timms exhibit a more brash tone and the Kiwaya's a "sweeter" one. My ears prefer the Kiwaya. The Timms were absolute cannons in terms of volume. I'd say almost too loud.

You certainly can't go wrong with a Kiwaya. I had a KTS4 a few years ago and in a fit of insanity I sold it. Of the instruments that have passed through my hands, that is one I regret selling. What great playing and sounding instruments!

Ukecaster said:

My Famous FS-5 (same as Kiwaya KS-5) has a pretty standard 16mm thick neck. Most sop necks I've examined (not many, mind you) are 16-17mm thick at fingerboard/nut junction. The only exception I've seen so far is my Kamaka 50's gold label, which has the skinniest neck I've ever seen, at only 12mm, with a flat back neck, obviously hand carved. That Kamaka has pretty standard nut width at 35mm (Kiwaya is 37mm), but mongo-sized string spread at the saddle, 45mm, compared most sops 39-42mm. See spreadsheet below, on which I've been tracking various uke measurements (yes, I'm a uke geek).

View attachment 99908

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Cool that you're keeping track of all this!

janeray1940 said:

I have nothing to offer to help with your decision, but I agree this is an interesting topic for a post. I picked up my first Kiwaya soprano a short while ago and soon thereafter saw a listing for a Timms with extended fretboard, and wondered if I should get both and A/B them. I didn't, because there wasn't a try-before-you-buy option for the Timms, and after reading your post, I'm glad I stopped myself. The thicker neck may well have been a dealbreaker (not a fan of thick necks at all). The Kiwaya neck is pretty much perfect.

But I know what you mean about the buzz from sloppy fretting - I've played Kamakas pretty much exclusively since I began playing, and they are considerably more forgiving that my Kiwayas seem to be! Motivation to play better

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My Timms has an extremely thin neck, much thinner than even my KoAloha. I did have to change the setup slightly though, one string was buzzing.

I don't have a Kiwaya...yet....Next! I do have a Timms and vintage Martins. So surprised to hear a Timms described as a thicker neck, since my Timms' neck is quite thin, perhaps thinner than the Martins. I love that chart with measurements of neck thickness, so important, since it is a deciding factor for many people.