Low G on concerts (Kiwaya, Loprinzi, or vintage Martin)?

Has anyone had good (or great) results with a low g string on a mahogany concert-sized Kiwaya, Loprinzi or vintage Martin? I would love to hear your feedback or advice.

cogfasser said:

a low g string on a mahogany concert-sized Kiwaya

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Yes! I have a mahogany Kiwaya KTC-2 concert strung low G, and while it sounds great strung reentrant, I think it sounds even better with low G. I'm using a Fremont Soloist with Martin M600s, and find it perfectly balanced - it's become my go-to uke for low G.

I've only had Kiwaya/Famous Sopranos. I really want a Concert version sometime (I'm hesitant to spend that much from a Japanese supplier though).

But I would definitely would try the Fremont Soloist as the low G there; they're great on whatever they're used for.

igorthebarbarian said:

(I'm hesitant to spend that much from a Japanese supplier though).

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In case you needed an enabler... You can find Kiwayas from U.S. suppliers with good return policies. I was lucky to get my KTC-2 from HMS for a really good price; I've seen them at Elderly and Dusty Strings as well. There's also Fernandez Music, which I don't have firsthand experience with but is an authorized U.S. supplier.

I've always been curious about why people do this, so I'm hoping people here can give me some insight. I've seen some of janeray's posts in the past - small hands more comfortable on a short scale combined with playing melody in a group setting.

But a standard concert wasn't designed for that tuning and is not the best vehicle for that tuning. In janerays' case there are overiding considerations for doing it. But I'd like to get an idea of how many people fit her profile, or if there are some other reasons for going this route.

Hep' me understand, folks!

southcoastukes said:

I've always been curious about why people do this

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Because we can?

Seriously, even though it may not be the best vehicle, it works well enough, and if you like the low G sound with a smaller body instrument, why not? I have my long neck soprano strung with a low G and it's good. Yeah, the tension is a little lower than optimal, but it sounds good and is well balanced with the other strings.

Jim Hanks said:

Because we can?

Seriously, even though it may not be the best vehicle, it works well enough, and if you like the low G sound with a smaller body instrument, why not? I have my long neck soprano strung with a low G and it's good. Yeah, the tension is a little lower than optimal, but it sounds good and is well balanced with the other strings.

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Hey Jim,

Thanks much for the reply. Of course we can do anything - there are after all "Bass Ukuleles" and some people might actually enjoy the sound of them without amplification.

I guess what I'm getting at is if it's not the best vehicle, then why? Or maybe what is it about the "low G sound" (choked to some extent on that 4th string) on a small body that you like? And lastly, if this is a set-up for melody, do you find the lower tension to be a problem?

southcoastukes said:

Hey Jim,

Thanks much for the reply. Of course we can do anything - there are after all "Bass Ukuleles" and some people might actually enjoy the sound of them without amplification.

I guess what I'm getting at is if it's not the best vehicle, then why? Or maybe what is it about the "low G sound" (choked to some extent on that 4th string) on a small body that you like? And lastly, if this is a set-up for melody, do you find the lower tension to be a problem?

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What is the "best" vehicle for low G?

kkimura said:

What is the "best" vehicle for low G?

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Tenor is by far the most popular, and it meets some objective criteria as well.

First, typical resonance of a Tenor body allows for full resonance of a g note.

Second, the tensions of medium gauge strings allow for a firm tension on a 17" scale. Linear tuning is usually for melody playing and most folks playing melody aren't generally fond of lower tensions. Of course you could put heavier strings on a 15" scale to get tension back, but then again many Concerts aren't built to respond to higher tension to begin with, and heavier strings can diminish response.

Third, if you're doing this for strumming, 1st position linear chords don't sound all that great. You're better off with linear tuning to play up the neck as with a rhythm guitar. Yet with a Concert, you don't have much room to go up before things get plinky.

That's my take, at least. I'm hoping someone can show me what I'm missing.

southcoastukes said:

Hey Jim,

Thanks much for the reply. Of course we can do anything - there are after all "Bass Ukuleles" and some people might actually enjoy the sound of them without amplification.

I guess what I'm getting at is if it's not the best vehicle, then why? Or maybe what is it about the "low G sound" (choked to some extent on that 4th string) on a small body that you like? And lastly, if this is a set-up for melody, do you find the lower tension to be a problem?

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We've discussed this before. The "best vehicle" is unattainable. A low G tenor is still not the best thing possible. A baritone low G is still not ideal. There is no "best vehicle" for low G. Just like there is no perfect size for any instrument. A 36 inch spinet sounds like a garbage can when compared to a 9 foot concert grand piano. Still, they are tuned the same. The spinet is not the best vehicle. But then again, neither is the concert grand. There are actually a few bigger. Is a 9' 6" Boesendorfer optimal? Nope. Could always be better. Still the string manufacturers make the best strings they can for the instruments people are buying and playing.

Dirk, I sincerely wish you would make strings for those of us that are going to play low G on our concerts (and others who do so with their sopranos). Even though we must rely upon lesser string manufacturers, we will continue tuning our G's down an octave without your expertise. It's kind of a pity. Put your objections and disclaimers on the package and I'd buy your low G concert strings.

stevepetergal said:

... The "best vehicle" is unattainable...There is no "best vehicle" for low G.
Dirk, I sincerely wish you would make strings for those of us that are going to play low G on our concerts (and others who do so with their sopranos). Even though we must rely upon lesser string manufacturers, we will continue tuning our G's down an octave without your expertise. It's kind of a pity. Put your objections and disclaimers on the package and I'd buy your low G concert strings.

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Hello Steven,

A pleasure to talk to you in this way. However, I couldn't disagree more about the statement that a "best vehicle" is unattainable. It's simply that the traditional Concert wasn't designed for this and while some folks have come out with instruments that are "better than typical", unless I have missed it, no one seems to have come out with an instrument that can truly give uncompromised performance for this set-up with a 15" scale.

It's not that it's impossible, and that's the real reason I'm hoping for input here. We're finally getting close to putting out instruments again and one of the options (it's presently at the bottom of the list) would be a 15" scale no compromise "Melody Concert" that would allow for a Linear C tuning.

I'm just trying to get an idea of, first: "who plays this sort of thing", and second, "why?" Instrument design is more successful the more specific it is. Ukulele designs are pretty general. If we're going to do something like this, we'd want to tailor it to a much narrower profile than a typical Concert. I'm just trying to figure out what that profile is.

As far as strings, we have some in house now that are appropriate for a 15" scale if someone had an instrument that would allow for that sort of stringing. That's why we're considering building one ourselves. If you want to try a set, and let's say you're looking for the sort of tensions typical for melody playing, then give the Light Heavy Gauges a shot. With a disclaimer for the fact that Concerts are not generally designed for firmer tension and have bodies that won't allow a full resonance for the g note. Strings can't work miracles. Just can't bring myself to give even a qualified recommendation for a Linear C Soprano. It's certainly viable if you're going amplified, but we've backed off from that whole area and concentrate strictly on acoustic stringing now.

But are there legitimate reasons for doing this in the first place? That's what I'd like help with.

I like the low G on my Clara (which is concert sized) and I think it sounds great. I like that scale since some of the arrangements we play require finger stretches that are no longer easy for me to accomplish.

–Lori

Lori said:

I like the low G on my Clara (which is concert sized) and I think it sounds great. I like that scale since some of the arrangements we play require finger stretches that are no longer easy for me to accomplish.
–Lori

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Thanks for the input, Lori.

Understood you like the 15" scale. When you say "we" does that mean you're in a group play situation and everyone tunes to C?

That's the other thing I'm trying to get a handle on. Are there groups of mixed size Ukuleles playing melody in C tuning? If it's solo play why tune to C?

I don't own a tenor, and I have 2 concerts--one mahogany, one koa. One is strung low G, but not the mahogany. The 'hog is a Barron River, and the body is slightly smaller than the koa one, which is a Kelii. The Kelii has a 1/2 inch longer scale and a thicker neck. When the BR arrived, I had a low G showdown on both concerts, and it wasn't so much that the BR sounded bad (it can go either way), it just seemed better on the Kelii. I think that's mostly due to the fact that the Kelii had been low G for ages, and that influenced what I think it should sound like.

Dirk, I appreciate that you want to help, but you come off discouraging. Players can decide for themselves what sounds best. I play concert low G because I want to, and frankly, I think it sounds good. If I want massive resonance on low notes, I will play a guitar.

southcoastukes said:

Tenor is by far the most popular, and it meets some objective criteria as well.

First, typical resonance of a Tenor body allows for full resonance of a g note.

Second, the tensions of medium gauge strings allow for a firm tension on a 17" scale. Linear tuning is usually for melody playing and most folks playing melody aren't generally fond of lower tensions. Of course you could put heavier strings on a 15" scale to get tension back, but then again many Concerts aren't built to respond to higher tension to begin with, and heavier strings can diminish response.

Third, if you're doing this for strumming, 1st position linear chords don't sound all that great. You're better off with linear tuning to play up the neck as with a rhythm guitar. Yet with a Concert, you don't have much room to go up before things get plinky.

That's my take, at least. I'm hoping someone can show me what I'm missing.

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Interesting concepts, thanks.

My nephew, a budding jazz musician, told me my Eastman low G concert is a great jazz ukulele. (I need to learn how to play up the neck).

Probably for the same reason that some people enjoy the hell out of eating what I consider to be bad barbecue. LOL

mmmmmm, bbq!

southcoastukes said:

I've always been curious about why people do this, so I'm hoping people here can give me some insight. I've seen some of janeray's posts in the past - small hands more comfortable on a short scale combined with playing melody in a group setting.

But a standard concert wasn't designed for that tuning and is not the best vehicle for that tuning. In janerays' case there are overiding considerations for doing it. But I'd like to get an idea of how many people fit her profile, or if there are some other reasons for going this route.

Hep' me understand, folks!

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For me it all comes down to my preferred scale. I like concerts. I have owned a few tenors, and while I loved the sound, I just didn't enjoy the tension or distance between frets. I did tune one tenor down to Bb, and the tension was better, but I still wasn't comfortable playing it. So... back to the concert scale. I recently received a 16" Ono and I think that will be the perfect match for my linear C tuned uke.

I used to play only linear; no matter the size. I then bought a Griffin PineCone concert and spoke with Dirk about strings. It's amazing how patient Dirk is with the many questions and counter questions he fields in a day alone. I decided to try out a set of reentrants for a change and it changed my attitude towards reentrant tuning. For one, it takes runs up the fretboard to a whole new register.

I'm and old guitar player, 58 years, and still prefer linear on my instruments except for the PineCone; it'll stay reentrant. It's so much easier when playing higher lead runs. If I only had one uke (ha!); it'd be linear. I like taking off on the low G yet a reentrant G takes it in a whole different direction.

I'm looking forward to your instruments coming out Dirk. If they are anything like your strings, they'll be spectacular. I go on your site quite often, especially the tip section and learn something everytime I reread them. Perhaps it's finally sinking in.

For our instruments we are going to design for narrower, more specific purposes. I had been thinking about posting a thread on the topic of something like "in what ways do you play a 15" Linear C tuning". That's one of the designs we're looking at since there seems to be interest, but we don't want to do something so specific we'll miss the mark.

In looking back at the original question, my posting seemed to have hijacked the intent of the OP: to get feedback on specific instruments for Linear C tuning.

We're still a good bit away from doing our design, but when I saw the (related) topic come up, I jumped in and ended up taking things off track. So for now just help cogfasser out if you can. I'll come back to you'all for more questions when the time for it gets closer.