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Timbuck
07-03-2017, 10:31 PM
Has anybody tried this yet. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Titebond-5013-Liquid-Hide-Wood-Glue-8-oz-bottle-/332290730958?epid=1673963337&hash=item4d5e122bce:g:DbAAAOSwvflZWlT3
supposedly popular with some luthiers...how does it compare with "Old brown Glue"?

*EDIT* First look at the adds and it seemed like a good thing But! I've just had a look at some reviews on it and I've gone off it now :( mostly down to it's limited shelf life of a few months.
(reviews here) https://www.amazon.com/Franklin-International-5013-Titebond-8-Ounce/product-reviews/B0002YXE7K

mikeyb2
07-04-2017, 10:01 AM
Ken, I bought some earlier in the year, to glue down the fingerboard extensions on the 3 ukes I was finishing at the time. The idea being that if I ever need to remove the neck, it would be easier to heat up the glue and release the fingerboard. It has a short shelf life, so I'm trying to make use of it and last week I used it to glue in the frets on my guitar build. I, like you, read the reviews which were mixed, so I wouldn't want to use it to build an entire instrument. I'll stick with Titebond Original for that.
Having said that, I've had no problems at all so far.
One more thing, the bottle I received didn't appear to have an expiry date on it, so I don't know for sure when it expires or indeed if it has already. Mike

sequoia
07-04-2017, 06:38 PM
I love it when we start talkin' glue. Adhesives I mean. I'm still baffled. Lot of chemistry out there. But so, so important to building ukuleles... I've looked at the stuff you mention Ken and I'm tempted but always end up asking myself the same question: Why? The biggest advantage I'm lead to believe is its reversibility. Also it is "traditional". This might be great for violins which, as I understand it, are more or less designed to be taken apart periodically. Ukes on the other hand are hopefully more or less a permanent construction (we hope). Since PVA glues creates a stronger bond than "hide" (protein) glue (as I'm lead to believe), why not go for the strongest adhesive join? ... Oh and also it was forbidden on the Vegan Friendly ukes I custom built. Plus it stinks (rots) and the shelf life is very short. So why bother?

ProfChris
07-04-2017, 10:59 PM
PVA isn't 'stronger" than hot hide glue, in tests at least. If I recall properly, hot hide shears earlier than PVA but gives way later if you try to pull the joint apart. But both are strong enough so that in a well-made joint the wood will fail before the glue does.

Hot hide has an advantage for bridges in that it doesn't creep with heat. I find it good as an amateur builder because it allows be to disassemble mistakes and try again without cleaning out glue residue. And removing squeeze out is easier than with PVA. It's also good for well-fitting cracks because it can give the least visible glue line.

PVA is conveniently there in a bottle when you need it, cleans up pretty easily, and holds a bridge nicely if the owner doesn't allow overheating. It offers appreciably more open time than hot hide glue. But it goes off in the bottle over time (hide glue granules last decades).

I use both, but exclusively hot hide glue for bridges and crack repairs.

I've read that liquid hide glue is pretty much like hot hide glue when fresh, but with longer open time. But it degrades fast in the bottle.

So that's why a builder might choose hide glue over PVA. Or not. Both build good instruments.

Michael N.
07-05-2017, 12:22 AM
We know that PVA creeps, the manufacturers admit it. Hide glue is also easier to clean up. It's also better at regluing should a joint ever fail, it sticks to itself. In my experience this aspect also makes for a stronger joint because the wood has already been (effectively) glue sized. It also can take very high temperatures, much higher than PVA, which we know is thermoplastic. It's easier to reverse or rather the result of any reversal is cleaner, without the need to reveal fresh wood. It also dries more glass like, PVA is a bit more rubbery - although this aspect may not be of any consequence.
Having said all that PVA is (for the most part) 'good enough'. It's not a better glue though, for all the reasons that I have listed previously.
As for the liquid hide glue. It does have a mixed reputation. All liquid hide glues (including fish glue) contain a relatively high proportion of preservative. That's the bit that keeps them liquid at room temperature and the bit that gives them a long open time. You can always add a bit of salt to normal hide glue if you want to extend it's open time a little. You can also dispense it from a squeezy bottle should you wish. I think the preservative may render the glue a little more hygroscopic but that's not a problem providing you don't overdo that preservative.

Yankulele
07-05-2017, 06:35 AM
I used it to build a pair of bedside tables five years ago. They haven't fallen apart yet. I like it for its extended open time, and for its friendliness to finishes.
And it is reversible. I make mistakes, and these were a complicated glue up.

Nelson

Wildestcat
07-05-2017, 12:19 PM
I used it a few years ago to do major repairs on an old violin, rather than gear up for using hot hide glue. Seemed to work fine and the violin is still in one piece. I ended up throwing most of the bottle away afterwards though, because as sequoia says I couldn't see the point when Titebond original works so well. I'm not sure if there was an expiry date on the bottle - I think I worked out the likely expiry by referencing the date of manufacture code on the bottle. Details on how to decipher the code are on the Franklin website. However that's what I do to work out how old my Titebond original is, so maybe I'm getting confused. Not an unusual occurrence these days.

sequoia
07-05-2017, 06:01 PM
We know that PVA creeps, the manufacturers admit it.

I'm not sure I understand the term "creep", but I don't like the sound of it. Is this the same as shrinkage?

Some other things I don't like about PVA (Titebond):

- It drys a sickly yellow 'cause they add a yellow dye. Why add the dye? Grrrrr....
- It shrinks a lot
- Not friendly to dyes/finishes
- Might not be friendly to acoustic instrument sound. I've only heard this as anecdotal evidence but from some very knowledgeable people. I don't know. Maybe it is prejudice. Hard to sort out. I have not found this to be the case.

I could probably think of more things I don't like, but I continue to use the stuff because:

- I'm lazy and it is convenient. Gluepots? Pain the ass.
- It's cheap and I'm cheap
- It glues a join hella tight like the goddamned hammers of hell.

I've sold some ukuleles and I suspect there is a recurring nightmare that maybe even the real professional luthier's share. 3:30 in the morning: Phone rings: "Hello? The sides on my ukulele have come unglued. I'm not happy. What do I do?". Wake up screaming and then realize it was only a bad dream. I sleep better knowing I used PVA glue.

ProfChris
07-05-2017, 11:09 PM
Creep is the joint moving because the glue softens under heat and then hardens again.

Most obvious on bridges - instrument left in hot car, glue softens a little, string tension pulls the bridge a little towards the headstock, then re-hardens once it cools down.

I've read that PVA/aliphatics also move a little over time, even when cold, but I think this might need more string tension than a uke provides.