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zztush
09-24-2017, 04:10 PM
I've been teaching my friend since last October. I am teaching this F chord (see the figure below). He can almost do it, but not exactly the same shape as me. Today I taught him the shape of ring finger especially first joint. During this session, We've found that I could do this ring finger bend (bottom figure) on both hands but he could not.

https://s26.postimg.org/aq1av4fqh/combine_images.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

This move is not used in usual. I think it is not by nature and I might get this shape by guitar. Curious thing is that I can do it on both hands.

robinboyd
09-24-2017, 04:17 PM
Can he do it using the little finger on the A string? I can do it either way, but I first learnt it using my little finger because I was transitioning from a 3213 (Bb add 9) chord. Might be worth a try if he's struggling.

zztush
09-25-2017, 12:49 AM
Thank you robin! We will try it on Wednesday.

padlin
09-25-2017, 01:29 AM
I can't touch my palm like that without curling the rest, not even close.

zztush
09-25-2017, 01:39 AM
Hi, padlin!

This may be no relation to ukulele skill. I have never hard of this finger bend. And my friend almost can play F chord without this bend. I just put it up because it was bit curious for me.

janeray1940
09-25-2017, 04:31 AM
Some (most?) people don't have an independent tendon between their ring finger and their pinky (http://www.sciencemadesimple.co.uk/activity-blogs/paralysed_finger), which makes it hard (but not impossible, with practice) to bend or lift the ring finger independently. Perhaps this is what your friend is experiencing?

I've been playing that three-finger F chord for years using my pinky on C since that's how I was taught. I just tried it with the ring finger and - can't do it, not even close. Interesting!

kohanmike
09-25-2017, 09:32 AM
(and the thumb sticking way out on the other side doesn't help, either).

I learned a long time ago on guitar that proper technique to be able to form chords efficiently is to keep the thumb on the back of the neck, never over the edge like the photo. It works for me to be able to play any chord.

Louis0815
09-25-2017, 09:39 AM
the thumb sticking way out on the other side doesn't help, either.
:agree:
Move the thumb down behind the neck and all over sudden your ringfinger only needs to bend down to ~1st joint of your middle finger.

Besides that I'd like to chime in that F major can easily be played as 2010 as well, the finger on the A string is usually completely optional.

ksiegel
09-25-2017, 10:46 AM
I never really gave this a thought, but just noticed that I sometimes play the C with my ring finger, then leave it in place and add the index and middle to make the F.

It isn't a conscious thing, just something that happens when it fits the music. And it matters not where my thumb is on the back of the neck.

Curiously, I had injured the tendon on my left ring finger a few years back, and the last (First? The one nearest the nail) joint no longer bends as much as any of the other fingers. I wonder if that has any bearing on this...



-Kurt

zztush
09-25-2017, 01:01 PM
Hi, Kurt!


I never really gave this a thought, but just noticed that I sometimes ply the C with my ring finger, then leave it in place and add the index and middle to make the F.

The people, who can not play this F shape, have a problem with C (see the figure below). Their palm can not reach near neck and stay far from neck. Because their ring finger can not flex well.

https://s26.postimg.org/9gxe2xjft/combine_images2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

zztush
09-25-2017, 03:53 PM
Hi, Mike!


I learned a long time ago on guitar that proper technique to be able to form chords efficiently is to keep the thumb on the back of the neck, never over the edge like the photo. It works for me to be able to play any chord.

When we play in classical guitar style, our thumb can be located strictly behind the neck (See Segovia below).

https://s26.postimg.org/8n705399l/combine_images3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

We can play classical style with our ukulele (See John King below). The classical style leads the left hand located just next to our face. We still can play it in terms of left hand, but right hand strumming or picking is hard in such style. Hence our ukulele goes low and thumbs come over the neck like Jake Shimabukuro, James Hill and George Harrison.

https://s26.postimg.org/a8wdr4w4p/combine_images.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

janeray1940
09-25-2017, 04:13 PM
the shared tendon thing, while possibly relevant to other chord formations, is a red herring in this case.

Good point re: the chord, but to clarify, I meant it more in the context of the photos with the ring finger bending toward the palm. Oddly enough I can do that, but no amount of angling the wrist is going to get my pinky out of the way - mine bends inward toward the ring finger and won't clear the A string if I try to make this shape. Probably has more to do with my bent pinkies than the shared tendon though.

kohanmike
09-25-2017, 08:05 PM
...but right hand strumming or picking is hard in such style. Hence our ukulele goes low and thumbs come over the neck like Jake Shimabukuro, James Hill and George Harrison.

I always use a strap to avoid the problem of the uke rotating and making playing more difficult.

kitsunegarcia
09-26-2017, 09:34 AM
Some (most?) people don't have an independent tendon between their ring finger and their pinky (http://www.sciencemadesimple.co.uk/activity-blogs/paralysed_finger), which makes it hard (but not impossible, with practice) to bend or lift the ring finger independently. Perhaps this is what your friend is experiencing?

I've been playing that three-finger F chord for years using my pinky on C since that's how I was taught. I just tried it with the ring finger and - can't do it, not even close. Interesting!


My mind is blown!!! I can barely lift my ring finger off the table. :eek:

zztush
09-26-2017, 11:10 PM
Hi, kitsunegarcia!

I can not bend left pinkey without ring finger flexion (see the figure below). And my friend, whom I taught ukulele, can bend both pinkeys very well. Hence these flexibility may not mean much about ukulele skills.

https://s26.postimg.org/6y0awyv8p/combine_images9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

We had a ukulele lesson today, and he could play F (2013) very well. I really convinced that this is not the flexibility or skill of the ring finger. It is rather the angle of the wrist today.

Photo I show the difference of the angle of the wrist between me and him in the figures below. The left column shows his wrong shapes of wrist, hand and fingers. The right column shows right shapes. I use easy C G and basic F chord (2010) for comparison.

1) A is the wrong angle of the wrist. B is right one and straight. This straight wrist is seen on Jake Shimabukuro, James Hill and George Harrison too (see the photo in previous post in this thread).

2) C and D show C chord. Even such easy chord, his wrist was flexed and his ring finger does not flex well, his hand shift to headstock side. Wrist should be straight like Jake, James, George and figure D.

3) E and F show G chord. As seen on E, his wrist is flexed and his hand shift to headstock side. Wrist should be straight like photo F, and fingers (index, middle and ring) should keep right angle to strings without shifting to headstock.

https://s26.postimg.org/7mrzi94fd/all2.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/nl0p8dyn9/)

4) G shows the reason why our hand should not shift to headstock side. Ring finger and pinkey went off from the fretboard in this shape. He had a trouble changing chord on G. H shows basic finger rest position on violin and guitar. This rest position gives save intervals between each finger and strings. In this manner, finger nail should face to our face.

5) I shows wrong direction of a finger against strings. This direction is hard to control clearance to next strings. J shows right direction of a finger. This direction gives very fine control of finger tip with flexion of the fingers. Hence wrist should not flex, hand should not shift to headstock side and nail should face to our face.

6) K shows his wrong shape of F(2010). Wrist is flexed, hand shifts to headstock side and index finger can not flex well in his style. Flexed wrist prevent finger flexions seen in this photo, because wrist gives another pulley for flex finger muscles when flexed. L is right shape. Wrist is straight, finger nails face to our face.

After he's got a straight wrist, his ring finger climbed on the fret board (See the right figure below). Then we try to exercise lever (red arrow on the bottom figure) in order to see the direction of finger power by elbow. This lever is made by ring, thumb and elbow.

https://s26.postimg.org/3yko1qnxl/final2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Even he's got the right shape (right figure above), he still need a conscious power of the ring finger in right direction, because ring finger requires elbow power.

He was very happy to get F shape and enjoyed today.

kitsunegarcia
09-27-2017, 04:23 AM
Hi, kitsunegarcia!

I can not bend left pinkey without ring finger flexion (see the figure below). And my friend, whom I taught ukulele, can bend both pinkeys very well. Hence these flexibility may not mean much about ukulele skills.

.....


Even he's got the right shape (right figure above), he still need a conscious power of the ring finger in right direction, because ring finger requires elbow power.

He was very happy to get F shape and enjoyed today.

I can't bend pinkys either. :/

Thanks for this post! I dont't have a problem playing this chord either with ring or pinky finger, but i found the whole wrist flexion thing interesting. I have some interesting ukulele challenges like small hands; long term hand damage as a rock climber, mostly pulley stuff on the ring fingers of both hands and a touch of arthritis. I have crazy strong fingers/hands but terrible flexibility and nimbleness that i want to improve. I religiously put my thumb on the back of the neck due to prev guitar exp and hadn't thought much about the wrist angle.

So what i tried is put my fingers in the F chord you suggested using the ring finger first...then tried to bend my wrist in flexion to deliberately create bad posture...can't do it! My wrist is automatically straight. I can make a sl. awkward angle by bringing my elbow fwd (almost in front of uke) but wrist is still straight. Weird!

So happy for you and your student making progess!!

dinghy
09-27-2017, 07:19 AM
ahoy

learned F two fingers, can do it either way

sure to be covering ground that others have

few months ago
started doing at least 15 min of finger exercises every day
for me this has made a world of difference,
must be dozens of you tube videos on uke finger exercises

yours truly
mac

PS checked times am only doing about eight min a day finger exsercises

Louis0815
09-27-2017, 10:09 PM
:agree: once more...

The photos presented as "evidence" of course never show the full posture - but to me they look as if the ukulele neck is held way too much forward, away from the body. Which is part (if not even the root cause) of the whole "wrist bending problems".

My advice to beginners:
- Keep the ukulele in parallel to your shoulder line
- with the soundboard ~parallel to your back (as far as personal anatomy allows, if you sit upright and straight it should be ~90 degree angle to the floor)
- and the headstock approximately on shoulder height
It might feel slightly odd at first, but IMHO it helps in the long run to avoid many problems.

But after all this is only my personal advice, based on my own perception of the world - whether someone follows me or not is not my decision (nor do I care). It works for me, though.

MopMan
09-30-2017, 11:45 AM
I was taught in the classical style, as zztush indicates above, to keep my thumb directly behind the neck with my arm rotated further around the instrument. The image of Segovia he posted illustrates the classical arm posture nicely.

This posture, while it takes some getting used to, allows your fingers to come down from directly above and more easily attack the strings from the appropriate angle. In this position, no distal joint bending is required to fret the optional C with the ring finger. When sounding an F chord, my ring finger points directly down at the neckboard. It is bent quite severely at the middle joint with little to no distal joint bend. If I apply pressure, the distal joint actually bends backwards a few degrees.

103380

zztush
09-30-2017, 11:06 PM
Thank you very much for your replay and thank you very much for the effort of uploading your photo, MopMan.

I dear not to use thumb in the photo below, because I don't care much of it.

https://s25.postimg.org/5w9qp4a8v/combine_images.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I care about the flexion of the fingers (red and green arrows). My fingers (photo left) flex very much and your (photo right) index finger and ring fingers are almost straight in classical style. I flex fingers in order to fine control of finger tips and efficiency of power. I use this finger flexion on my violins and guitars too. This finger flexion is related to wrist extension (blue arrows), it is also same as violin and guitar. If we flex fingers like me (photo left), the wrist extend. If we extend fingers like your classical style(photo right), the wrist flex.

https://s25.postimg.org/g5bemqakv/hqdefault.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

John King's (photo above) right hand is just next to his face. If we hold our ukulele in his style, our fingers are flexed and wrists are extended like him even with classical style. I know your fingers may flex more than the photo above. You hold your ukulele much lower than usual in order to take a photo. Hence your fingers may extend more than usual.

Jim Yates
10-01-2017, 04:49 AM
I learned a long time ago on guitar that proper technique to be able to form chords efficiently is to keep the thumb on the back of the neck, never over the edge like the photo. It works for me to be able to play any chord.

That is the classical way of playing chords, but many folkies use their thumb to fret strings. I often do this on guitar, but not on ukulele.