Neck Has Come Up with Fluorocarbon Strings! Fremont vs Worth Brown

twokatmew

twokatmew

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I own three ukes, all purchased from Elderly, and all came stock with Aquila super nylgut strings. I replaced the strings with fluorocarbons, and each neck has come up so that the action at the 12th fret is ~3mm now.

The nut slots on the concert were higher than I'd like but certainly within spec. I picked up a torch tip cleaner on Amazon and brought the slots down, so it's much more comfortable. Baz says adjusting the saddle is easy to do, but I'm afraid I might mess it up. My biggest concern is sanding it unevenly.

The tenor has the highest action, and the intonation is affected as I move higher up the neck. What's more, the saddle is black NuBone, so if I mess it up, I don't know how I'd replace it. I'm leaning toward chickening out and taking it in for an adjustment.

Questions: Will the necks eventually relax if I fit strings with less tension? I'm thinking of swapping the Fremont Black Lines on my tenor with Worth Browns. I realize the tension difference will be minimal, but thinking I should probably try them *before* I do anything with the saddle.

Thoughts? Advice? Thank you! :)
 
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Not noticed any difference when I put fluoros on my ukes, however, I do use concert scale strings on both my concert scale ukes & my tenor scale ukes, I prefer the feel of them, compared to the high tension of regular tenor strings.

If you plan on changing the strings again, I would not mess with adjusting anything just yet.

(You could get a spare saddle to try your hand at lowering the strings.)
 
When I changed the strings on my mahogany Tokai for higher tension, it wasn't the neck that moved, the saddle was pulling up the top
 
It seems odd that the action would increase going from nylgut to fluorocarbon. My experience has been the Nylguts seem to have more tension even though they are nylon. It has also been my experience that fluorocarbons are thinner than Nylguts so I'm having a tough time understanding why you needed to work the nut, unless it was always too high even with the Nylguts.

I'm wondering the thickness of the fluorocarbon strings you got that would raise the action. It would be good to know the height before the string change. Basically the saddle/nut change has to he twice the change in action at the 12th fret. If the action went from 2.5mm to 3mm that represents a 1mm change at the saddle to get it back down. That is a huge amount for just a string change. Unless the tension is so much higher to bow the neck or lift the soundboard, but it is still a lot.

Booli has a nice write-up on strings that is worth reading. I do my own setups, saddles/nuts, and mix-n-match strings and if it were me, I go with a lighter gauge set go from there.

John
 
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If anything the fluorocarbons I've used seem to have less tension, not more. And in any case the only way string tension would be an issue would be if you actually mounted steel strings.

If things really have changed, get in touch with Elderly first. In particular what you ought to try and measure for them is the "relief". That is, if the neck has actually bent, then there will be a gap between the strings and the frets when you hold the string down at the first fret and up around the 14th or so (where the neck meets the body). On new ukes there is usually little to no relief, maybe 0.008" around the 7th fret at most. If you've seen the action increase, and the relief is up above 0.010" or so, then you have an issue. On instruments with a truss rod (most guitars) this is adjustable. But no so on most ukes. On a new instrument a warped neck ought to be covered under some type of warranty

There are other things that can go wrong to raise the action. One is having the neck move or rotate at the heel under the tension of the strings, which happens to all acoustic guitars eventually. The other is to have the belly of the soundboard raise up under the tension of the strings. But again these are not likely given the low string tension of a ukulele.
 
Thanks everyone!

Just to clear things up, I don't believe there's anything wrong with the tenor that a change in strings and a slight saddle adjustment won't fix. Both bridge and soundboard are fine, and I don't believe there's anything wrong with the neck.

I did lower the nut slots on my concert very slightly, as they were a bit higher than that of my other ukes, and I noticed it when barring the first fret. I merely mentioned this because I've read it's more difficult than adjusting the saddle, but I was feeling nervous about messing with the tenor's saddle. The nut slot adjustments went well, and I can comfortably bar the first fret now. :)
Sorry for the confusion.

After writing my OP, I tuned the tenor down to B-flat. I like both the lower tension and the sound. And while I was out today, I picked up a set of Worth Brown medium *concert* strings. These are lower tension than the Fremont Black Lines that are currently on the tenor. I haven't put them on yet, as I'm enjoying the deeper sound of the B-flat-tuned tenor. :)

I've been watching lots of YouTube videos about adjusting saddles and nuts, and I recalled Baz saying something to the effect that over time, string tension will bring the neck up requiring a saddle adjustment. That's why I thought the neck might have come up a bit. Unfortunately I can't tell you what the action was at the 12th fret (G string) when I got the uke, but I thought it was a hair under 3mm. I think I'd like to see it at 2.75mm, but I'll settle on strings before I do anything.

Thanks for all your comments! Perhaps this is a case of a uke newbie having learned enough to be dangerous. LOL :confused: :smileybounce:
 
Good on you for correcting the action at the nut yourself. It's not hard, but is an iterative process that requires patience.

as other have said, if the neck is bowed or the bridge has rotated forwards, or both happening could be the reason for the action to go higher, but this is uncommon UNLESS you are using strings with too much tension.

also, as mentioned, fluoro strings come in a very wide range of gauges and tensions, and before you pay a luthier, you can go buy 5 different sets of thinner strings in different gauges for ~$25 and try them out before you have your instrument permanently modified.

If you click the link to my FAQ page in my signature below, you can see some info directly ON that page about strings, as well as links to a few other threads where I've posted info regarding strings previously here on UU.

I'd recommend to do that, since I'm not likely to repeat that text in depth, here, and again....

However, you can lay a ruler across the fretboard, and hold the uke up to the light (or to a window) and see how big of a gap you have betw the 5th-10th fret...as ALL necks should have a very slight bow...enough for maybe 1.0mm-1.25mm of space under the ruler at the most...

This is where having a truss rod is useful, for you can adjust the bow, which can both fix the action, as well as the intonation.

Also, you can get NUBONE nuts and saddles directly from Allparts.com, Elderly, Gutar Center and direct from Graph Tech (maker of nubone and tusq) for $7-15 each depending upon which items you actually order but you have to know the THICKNESS of the saddle (2.5mm, 3mm or 3.5mm since it varies) and want to get one that fits the saddle slot not only side-to-side width, but front-to-back THICKNESS.

I would start with one no less than 7mm or 8mm tall so you have room to sand it down, as some saddle slots in ukes are deeper and if you start with a 5mm or 6mm saddle, then you will have to shim it up with cardstock, plastic strips or wooden strips.

Investing in a $8-15 pair of digital calipers well help HUGELY with all of this, and you can find these on eBay and Amazon...

like this one:
51kqQbwgrYL._SL1000_.jpg


https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Electronic-Vernier-Micrometer-Measuring/dp/B01IJA9O5E/

Digital calipers will also let you identify wayward strings by their diameters if they end up not going back into the proper envelopes after testing and removal...

you may also want to invest in a string height gauge, ~$8 on ebay which will also let you see the neck bow, as well as act as a 'fret rocker' to see if adjacent frets are all the same height....

something like one of these:

61weBvX2rXL._SL1001_.jpg


https://www.amazon.com/String-Action-Electric-Acoustic-Guitar/dp/B00NARHNCS

Good luck!

Hope this helps :)
 
Thanks Booli!

I have a string action ruler, but I just ordered a digital caliper from Amazon. Just tuning down to B-flat from C has made the tenor more comfortable to play, and it appears the action at the 12th fret has come down a tiny bit. Unfortunately Elderly no longer sells parts, so no nuts and saddles from them. Allparts is similarly lacking. I'll have to try GraphTech directly.

Your string info is very helpful. I have read your many string posts with great interest. I know that thinner strings will have less tension and more sustain, but it also depends on the density of the material, yes? When I was trying to decide on strings for the tenor, I looked at D'Addario's string gauges and tension info, and their fluorocarbon strings do indeed have more tension than their nyltech strings. (I don't know how these compare to Aquila Super Nylgut though.) It's not a lot, but the gauges of tenor Black Lines are thicker than D'Addario flurocarbons (with the exception of the C string), so the tension will be higher still, though I don't know by how much. Here's what D'Addario shows for tenor flurocarbon and nyltech strings:

Tenor_Carbon.jpg
Tenor_Nyltech.jpg

Total tension in pounds for Nyltech = 44.23, and for Carbons = 45.8.

Anyway, it does seem the higher tension of the Fremont Black Lines was the culprit in raising the action. I do find that I like B-flat tuning, so I may just keep the Fremonts tuned down, but I'll try other lower tension strings if I decide to return it to C tuning.

Thanks so much for your help! :D:D
 
As shared by Booli, I find those metal luthier rulers invaluable for setups.
I use them more so than calipers.
You just sit them on top of the 12th fret, and see where your action is at (see attachment)

In addition to measurement, you should be able to feel the overall playability.
Because all instruments are unique, sometimes the same measurement for one uke won't feel the same as on another due to differences in the bow of the neck, different dimensions, etc.

I'm a lover low action.
I like the A string (1st) to be about 1.5mm at the 12th fret and the G string to be about 2mm.
This is far lower than how most ukes come, but it feels right to me :)

And don't be too scared to sand down the saddle. As others have said, it's good to do a little bit at a time, keeping record of your progress by marking the side edge with a pencil to control how much you're shaving off.
With practice and time, it becomes a learned art. Nowadays when I wanna do a setup, I can usually go a bit crazy and sand down quite a lot without going too far, as I've grown used to estimating how much needs to be sanded down.

Saddles are a lot more easily replaceable than nuts.
In my view, nut adjustment is a bigger risk than sanding the saddle down, so I'm surprised you started with the nut but was wary about sanding the saddle.
 

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kissing said:
As shared by Booli, I find those metal luthier rulers invaluable for setups.
I use them more so than calipers.
You just sit them on top of the 12th fret, and see where your action is at (see attachment)

In addition to measurement, you should be able to feel the overall playability.
Because all instruments are unique, sometimes the same measurement for one uke won't feel the same as on another due to differences in the bow of the neck, different dimensions, etc.

I'm a lover low action.
I like the A string (1st) to be about 1.5mm at the 12th fret and the G string to be about 2mm.
This is far lower than how most ukes come, but it feels right to me :)

And don't be too scared to sand down the saddle. As others have said, it's good to do a little bit at a time, keeping record of your progress by marking the side edge with a pencil to control how much you're shaving off.
With practice and time, it becomes a learned art. Nowadays when I wanna do a setup, I can usually go a bit crazy and sand down quite a lot without going too far, as I've grown used to estimating how much needs to be sanded down.

Saddles are a lot more easily replaceable than nuts.
In my view, nut adjustment is a bigger risk than sanding the saddle down, so I'm surprised you started with the nut but was wary about sanding the saddle.
Click to expand...

OK, that brings me to another question. My guitars have lower action on the high E side of the fretboard than the low E. But my ukes have the same action across the strings. I've been watching lots of YouTube videos re uke setups, but yours is the first post I've come across where you say you like the action lower on the A side than on the G side. I suppose it comes down to personal preference, but why is this the first I'm hearing about varying the 12th fret action across strings? I assume this means you must reduce the height of the nut slots to correspond with the lower action at the saddle for each string?

I started with the nut on the concert, because it was bugging me, and the slots didn't have very far to come down. I certainly wouldn't want to start fresh with a new nut! I'm extra nervous, because the nut and saddle are black NuBone, and I haven't been able to find exact replacements so far. I couldn't possibly live with a white saddle and black nut! :eek: Of course, if I'm buying an extra just to practice on, it doesn't have to be black. :)
 
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twokatmew said:
I assume this means you must reduce the height of the nut slots to correspond with the lower action at the saddle for each string?

I'm extra nervous, because the nut and saddle are black NuBone, and I haven't been able to find exact replacements so far. I couldn't possibly live with a white saddle and black nut! :eek: Of course, if I'm buying an extra just to practice on, it doesn't have to be black. :)
Click to expand...

Don't mess with the nut once you have it adjusted at the first fret.

Go to the Graphtech site and get the item number and description, then go to Amazon and search for it. Very likely you will find one.
 
twokatmew said:
OK, that brings me to another question. My guitars have lower action on the high E side of the fretboard than the low E. But my ukes have the same action across the strings. I've been watching lots of YouTube videos re uke setups, but yours is the first post I've come across where you say you like the action lower on the A side than on the G side. I suppose it comes down to personal preference, but why is this the first I'm hearing about varying the 12th fret action across strings? I assume this means you must reduce the height of the nut slots to correspond with the lower action at the saddle for each string?

I started with the nut on the concert, because it was bugging me, and the slots didn't have very far to come down. I certainly wouldn't want to start fresh with a new nut! I'm extra nervous, because the nut and saddle are black NuBone, and I haven't been able to find exact replacements so far. I couldn't possibly live with a white saddle and black nut! :eek: Of course, if I'm buying an extra just to practice on, it doesn't have to be black. :)
Click to expand...

1. Different action at different strings.

The reason this is the case on guitars is because they are tuned linear. The bass strings are thicker and require a bit more action to vibrate better.
And it also has to do with playability. Because those strings are fatter, are at the top, and commonly used to play the bass line when picked or strummed, having the action there a bit higher helps guide the pick/hands. This is literally the case on a classical guitar that has a flat fretboard (like most ukuleles).
On an acoustic and electric guitar, the saddle height curve is more like an "arch" to assist in playability (metal strings are higher tension, so the bass-E string is harder to press down if action is too high) and also to put it in line with the RADIUSED FRETBOARD.

My String Action Ruler happens to list the typical string action at 12th fret (see attachment).
We measure at the 12th fret, simply for consistency of measurement.

On Ukulele, it is a matter of preference.
Straight from the factory, some come with relatively same action across all the strings, while some come with a slanted saddle like guitar, with slightly higher action at the 4th string. A slanting saddle is a little more versatile for when you want to tune your uke to Low-G.
Having a slightly higher action on the G string (4th) doesn't appear to adversely affect playability on ukes tuned to High-G anyway.
My typical preferred setup is always a bit higher at the G string, regardless of whether I tune re-entrant or low-G - just out of personal preference.


2. Nut slots
Generally speaking, the nut slots should be higher for the bass end strings, and lower for the treble strings.
You may have noticed this on your guitars too.
On an ukulele, again, same thing applies to as saddles.
If you're going to use low-G, then it makes sense that the nut slot is higher on the low-G string.
With me, having the nut slots follow pattern like guitar on an ukulele does not affect my playability whether I go high-G or low-G.

Another important factor to consider in this is that I like low action because it helps me play the higher fret notes (like towards fret 9 and beyond even 12).
Typically the strings you are using when you're that high up the neck are the higher pitch strings (C, E and A). Hence it doesn't matter if the 4th string (G) isn't as low as the others.


Other seasoned people may disagree with me, but this is how I setup my instruments. Have been doing so for years.
And I am very particular about my instrument's playability :)
Often I could spend hours, across several days to get the setup "just right" on a new instruments. And a few weeks or months down the track, I may tweak the setup even more to get it closer to perfection.
 

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kissing said:
1. Different action at different strings.

The reason this is the case on guitars is because they are tuned linear. The bass strings are thicker and require a bit more action to vibrate better.
And it also has to do with playability. Because those strings are fatter, are at the top, and commonly used to play the bass line when picked or strummed, having the action there a bit higher helps guide the pick/hands. This is literally the case on a classical guitar that has a flat fretboard (like most ukuleles).
On an acoustic and electric guitar, the saddle height curve is more like an "arch" to assist in playability (metal strings are higher tension, so the bass-E string is harder to press down if action is too high) and also to put it in line with the RADIUSED FRETBOARD.

My String Action Ruler happens to list the typical string action at 12th fret (see attachment).
We measure at the 12th fret, simply for consistency of measurement.

On Ukulele, it is a matter of preference.
Straight from the factory, some come with relatively same action across all the strings, while some come with a slanted saddle like guitar, with slightly higher action at the 4th string. A slanting saddle is a little more versatile for when you want to tune your uke to Low-G.
Having a slightly higher action on the G string (4th) doesn't appear to adversely affect playability on ukes tuned to High-G anyway.
My typical preferred setup is always a bit higher at the G string, regardless of whether I tune re-entrant or low-G - just out of personal preference.


2. Nut slots
Generally speaking, the nut slots should be higher for the bass end strings, and lower for the treble strings.
You may have noticed this on your guitars too.
On an ukulele, again, same thing applies to as saddles.
If you're going to use low-G, then it makes sense that the nut slot is higher on the low-G string.
With me, having the nut slots follow pattern like guitar on an ukulele does not affect my playability whether I go high-G or low-G.

Another important factor to consider in this is that I like low action because it helps me play the higher fret notes (like towards fret 9 and beyond even 12).
Typically the strings you are using when you're that high up the neck are the higher pitch strings (C, E and A). Hence it doesn't matter if the 4th string (G) isn't as low as the others.


Other seasoned people may disagree with me, but this is how I setup my instruments. Have been doing so for years.
And I am very particular about my instrument's playability :)
Often I could spend hours, across several days to get the setup "just right" on a new instruments. And a few weeks or months down the track, I may tweak the setup even more to get it closer to perfection.
Click to expand...

This really helps. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain. :D
 
It's been two days since I tuned the tenor down to Bb. 12th fret action has returned to 2.75mm, and the intonation is fine, so I don't have to mess with the set up at all. :D

Thanks so much everyone! I've learned a lot.
 
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