I am new to Ukes and have started looking. Often when I hear recorded Ukes they sound quite off and sour in tuning. I tried a bunch at different prices in a shop recently and everyone was very off in intonation up the neck. I wonder if this is endemic as I left thinking maybe I should not bother with Ukes. Can they be intonated as well as a good guitar the entire neck? Why are the saddles not compensated? Can better strings solve it?
Can Ukes be intonated properly like guitars?
- Thread starter Fregly
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Inksplosive AL
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anthonyg
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Can ukuleles have decent intonation? Yes they can.
Why don't they? Money.
Its all about accuracy of construction. Excellent intonation requires really accurate construction and the shorter the string length the more accurate the construction needs to be for excellent intonation.
Now the problem is that a buyer looks at a small ukulele and expects that it just HAS to be much cheaper than a guitar because its SOO much smaller.
So here is the problem. Ukuleles NEED to be constructed more accurately than a guitar for good intonation yet because they are cheaper than guitars hardly anyone does make them more accurately.
Shop around and try many. You'll get lucky eventually.
Why don't they? Money.
Its all about accuracy of construction. Excellent intonation requires really accurate construction and the shorter the string length the more accurate the construction needs to be for excellent intonation.
Now the problem is that a buyer looks at a small ukulele and expects that it just HAS to be much cheaper than a guitar because its SOO much smaller.
So here is the problem. Ukuleles NEED to be constructed more accurately than a guitar for good intonation yet because they are cheaper than guitars hardly anyone does make them more accurately.
Shop around and try many. You'll get lucky eventually.
EDW
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If the instrument is properly set up that should not be a problem. Some do come with compensated saddles, such as the Kiwayas. I hear videos online where the instrument is out of tune, but suspect that they need to take a little more care when tuning. You will also find plenty with great intonation.
anthonyg
Well-known member
Now of course, in the defence of ukuleles. I've heard a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of guitars with really BAD intonation as well so longer scale length is no guarantee of accurate construction and decent intonation.
The risk factors are just higher with short scale instruments and more care is required.
The risk factors are just higher with short scale instruments and more care is required.
With stringed instruments I know the ratios don't work out for perfection to a tuner up the neck in different keys..... So sweetening to get only close enough for the ear to perceive is achievable. It's just I tried 7 ukes in a row and they all were straight up bad. With shorter scale issues I never usually hear mandolins as being out.
My problem is I likely wil have to buy without auditioning as there are not any good Uke shops anywhere close, and online shopping will be it for me.
My problem is I likely wil have to buy without auditioning as there are not any good Uke shops anywhere close, and online shopping will be it for me.
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stevepetergal
Well-known member
Good questions all. Intonation can be addressed on an ukulele, in just the same ways it is on a guitar. Also, just as with a guitar, there are limitations and there is no such thing as perfect intonation. You will find ukuleles with compensated saddles. This is becoming more common nowadays, too.
The thing to keep in mind is that the shorter the scale, the more problematic the intonation discrepancies will be. (This is why you will only see 9 foot pianos in concert halls.) If you're expecting the relatively minor intonation problems of large, hand-crafted guitars, you will find the ukulele's intonation below your standards, no matter what.
The thing to keep in mind is that the shorter the scale, the more problematic the intonation discrepancies will be. (This is why you will only see 9 foot pianos in concert halls.) If you're expecting the relatively minor intonation problems of large, hand-crafted guitars, you will find the ukulele's intonation below your standards, no matter what.
bearbike137
Well-known member
Interestingly, I have found intonation can vary even among the same model made by the same builder. That short scale can be a real challenge - but your best bet for finding a few that are near as perfect as it can get will be with the higher end builders. Also, different brands of strings can vary intonation, so find a set or mixed set that complements your uke!
Bill Sheehan
Well-known member
Fregly, I don't want to sound like I'm a spokesman for some particular merchant or brand, but I would offer that your intonation concerns are likely going to be well-addressed if you happen to get a uke from one of the merchants that does a set-up on the instrument before sending it to you (HMS; Mim; Uke Republic; Elderly Instruments would be some examples). I have had excellent luck in that regard. I also recall that the folks at Lanakai (sp?) offer a saddle on some of their models (I think they call it "Tune-a-Uke") that allows you to easily scoot each individual saddle piece forward and rearward in order to fine-tune the intonation.
Has anyone found in general tenor and baritone have better intonation and can be adjusted easier than the shorter scale soprano and concert Ukes? I really do love the sound of Ukuleles and much prefer what they have going on in vibe and tone than say mandolins, for instance.
Btw, I've been thinking of an Koaloha Opio Tenor.
Btw, I've been thinking of an Koaloha Opio Tenor.
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Uke Don
Well-known member
Intonation on ukes is a can of worms. But don't get discouraged quite yet. Previous comments are correct. I'll try to expand a bit.
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- The short scale is definitely a factor. You need to measure in 10ths of millimeters. A level of accuracy that is not always obtained on lesser cost ukes. As an aside, most ukes in shops are pretty inexpensive. A $1,000 uke is considered *very* expensive, but a $1,000 guitar would usually be considered cheap. But you get what you pay for with both.
- The ukes you tried likely all needed to be properly set up. If you get the string height properly low at the nut and saddle that will cause the string to be stretched less when fretted, so the notes will be less sharp as you move up the neck.
- Steel strings stretch much less when fretted, which helps explain why mandolins are not as much a problem.
- Inexpensive ukes are more likely to not be properly compensated at the saddle, i.e., scale length too short or too long. The frets may also be inaccurately placed.
- Strings make a massive difference on intonation. String manufacturers often now change the density of material in order to alter the string thickness. The goal is to have more consistent diameter, string to string. But that can really mess with intonation, and throws standard saddle compensation out the window. So "better" strings may not solve it.
- Saddles are not often compensated, although you see it more now. But because of how widely strings vary you would have to compensate differently for each different set of strings. Straight saddles (with a properly set up uke) probably won't be that far off. I consider 10 cents or less sharp or flat at the 12th fret within acceptable range.
- My most expensive uke came with a compensated saddle and relatively inexpensive nylon strings. It's intonation was perfect. After replacing the strings with "better" fluorocarbon strings it was louder and clearer and I liked the sound much better. But the intonation was worse.
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anthonyg
Well-known member
Yes the longer scale Tenor and baritone ukuleles can be a little better than the shorter scale ukuleles however the errors that can be found in the construction of cheap instruments is still a problem.
An Opio Tenor would be a great choice and the couple that I have played were accurately constructed. I prefer the spruce/maple top version over the all Acacia version.
SteveZ
Well-known member
Intonation adjustments are not that difficult to do, but can be time-consuming. Saying that the fret board has been installed correctly and the strings are decent, the three items which affect intonation are correct bridge placement, nut slot height and saddle height. It's the same with all ukes, price immaterial. It's all part of a decent set-up.
Intonation perfection depends a lot on the player, If one never plays down in the ninth-or higher fret range, then it may be no big deal if the twelfth fret is a few (or more) hertz off of being a perfect octave higher than zero fret. Obtaining intonatiin perfection may not worth th effort.
If the saddle is in the wrong spot, the scale is off and the fret distances will not be correct for the scale. Verifying scale length (distance from center-of-nut-slot to center-of-saddle) should be the first step. Also, the distance from center-of-nut-slot to the twelfth fret should be exactly half of the scale length. Removing and reinstalling a uke bridge should be left to a qualified tech and most won't want to do it. It's often better just to return the uke to the seller as defective than try to mess around with bridge removal.
Once the nut slot heights are adjusted so strings are at the best height for playing comfort, the intonation needs to be checked. This is because very small changes occur in string scale length (distance between center-of-nut-slot and center of saddle). A string length adjustment (a very small one) to make up for adjusting the nut slot height) can be done by raising or lowering the saddle height.
Lowering the saddle height often requires removing the saddle, uniformly sanding its base a very litte bit, reinstalling the saddle, tightening the strings and checking tone. This may need to be done several timesand requires patience.
Raising the saddle often requires removing the saddle, placing a very thin shim (e.g., strips of paper or business card work well) in the saddle slot, reinstalling the saddle, tightening the strings and checking tone. Again, this may take several attempts before on is satisfie with the result.
I haven't yet had a uke, guitar, banjo, banjo-uke or mandolin which didn't require some set-up work, price immaterial.
Intonation perfection depends a lot on the player, If one never plays down in the ninth-or higher fret range, then it may be no big deal if the twelfth fret is a few (or more) hertz off of being a perfect octave higher than zero fret. Obtaining intonatiin perfection may not worth th effort.
If the saddle is in the wrong spot, the scale is off and the fret distances will not be correct for the scale. Verifying scale length (distance from center-of-nut-slot to center-of-saddle) should be the first step. Also, the distance from center-of-nut-slot to the twelfth fret should be exactly half of the scale length. Removing and reinstalling a uke bridge should be left to a qualified tech and most won't want to do it. It's often better just to return the uke to the seller as defective than try to mess around with bridge removal.
Once the nut slot heights are adjusted so strings are at the best height for playing comfort, the intonation needs to be checked. This is because very small changes occur in string scale length (distance between center-of-nut-slot and center of saddle). A string length adjustment (a very small one) to make up for adjusting the nut slot height) can be done by raising or lowering the saddle height.
Lowering the saddle height often requires removing the saddle, uniformly sanding its base a very litte bit, reinstalling the saddle, tightening the strings and checking tone. This may need to be done several timesand requires patience.
Raising the saddle often requires removing the saddle, placing a very thin shim (e.g., strips of paper or business card work well) in the saddle slot, reinstalling the saddle, tightening the strings and checking tone. Again, this may take several attempts before on is satisfie with the result.
I haven't yet had a uke, guitar, banjo, banjo-uke or mandolin which didn't require some set-up work, price immaterial.
anthonyg
Well-known member
Sorry Steve but price is not immaterial and its not all in the setup.
People who make there claims I find just assume that all instruments are built to a reasonable standard of accuracy and its just about fine tuning.
All ukuleles are NOT made to a reasonable standard of accuracy and its not all about fine tuning. I'm a technical nerd and I will pull out a ruler and a set of vernier callipers to measure instruments while consulting the Stewmac fret position calculator.
The usual culprit is saddles placed with insufficient compensation. You can try filing the saddles back so that the trailing edge of the saddle is the contact point but saddles are relatively thin and if the distance to the trailing edge of the saddle isn't enough then its still not enough (situation normal). To fix this starts getting expensive. I've seen nuts being misplaced on a regular basis and this will cost some money (or time and skill) to fix as well and I'm just assuming that the frets were cut with a computer mill and accurate. If the frets aren't cut accurately then forget it.
Price is not immaterial. Now if you can go to a large store and play every instrument until you get lucky then you might luck out with a cheapy but its a long shot. Not something I would gamble with if its mail order.
If getting good intonation is much more difficult than on typical steel strings why are makers (past the toy type category) not taking extra steps then? Chances are a much greater proportion leave the factory in an unacceptable state. My beginner dissapointed impression was maybe the Uke was not a serious instrument. Of course I've heard recorded examples from good players that are great and true sounding. I am just wondering why not a higher minimum standard on instruments past say $700, understanding inevitable compromises manufacturers have to tend with. You would think a compensated saddle matched to the makers chosen string brand/type, at least.
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stevepetergal
Well-known member
Be forewarned: The Tune-a-Uke system has a very bad track-record. I had one. That instrument had the worst intonation of any I have ever owned by far. I'm convinced the adjustable bridge made things much worse. If good intonation is a priority, do not buy a Lanikai, especially a Tune-a-Uke model.
As bearbike137 suggests, the higher end builders will have best the capability of giving what you want.
70sSanO
Well-known member
Go play some nylon string guitars. Fretting steel strings is pretty no-brainer, especially with heavier strings, and with all that room it is almost impossible to inadvertently bend a string. Not so much with a nylon/fluorocarbon string ukulele, especially concerts and sopranos up the neck where real estate is hard to come by.
The quality and intonation of today's ukuleles are so much better than 10+ years ago as most production uke manufacturing is computerized. That said, poor setup (string height especially) will cause intonation problems. I do my own setups and will compensate my saddles if needed. But like classical guitars, compensation is generally not the norm, at least from what I remember.
John
The quality and intonation of today's ukuleles are so much better than 10+ years ago as most production uke manufacturing is computerized. That said, poor setup (string height especially) will cause intonation problems. I do my own setups and will compensate my saddles if needed. But like classical guitars, compensation is generally not the norm, at least from what I remember.
John
70sSanO
Well-known member
Another problem might be strings. It used to be, even with classical guitars, that after a string if the intonation was suddenly off on a particular string, the solution was to flip the string around. I've done a string change on a ukulele with very good intonation, (I can hear a note that is off and it really bugs me), and for some reason a string is off by 5 to 10 cents. It's not the ukulele. Some strings can be pre-stretched and some react adversely (see intonation thread thanks Booli). If I can't get the string to intonate correctly, I'll toss it out and use another one. This is not commonplace, but I won't play it if it sounds off.
John
John
SteveZ
Well-known member
I haven't had a stringed instrument yet that didn't require some amount of set-up work. Some required more than others and instrument price hasn't excluded any instrument from needing work. One wouid like to think that the higher the price, the less the potential for major problems due to poor workmanship, materials or inspections. Inexpensive does not necessarily mean something is of poor quality, and high price does not guarantee a high quality product. There is no question that manufacturing standards seem to vary radically among instrument makers and one needs to be a savvy consumer when dealing with a product which involves a marriage of artistry and repetitive manufacturing.
The ukulele industry has been able to provide instruments fitting just about every budget. The instrument buyer who has a decent understanding of how things work, what certain parts/subsystems do and why, and can perform "first echelon" and preventive maintenance has less buyers' remorse and frustration than the person who just throws money at a store and expects perfection.
"Price immaterial" means to me that the perfect instrument right out of the box doesn't exist. It may be playable as-is, but being just playable is not the same as matched to the player. A custom set-up is often the difference between a keeper and one which soon finds itself listed in the marketplace subforum regardless of the original sticker price.
In my experience, ukes costing anywhere near $700 are very likely to meet an acceptable minimum intonation standard. In fact I have never played a $300+ ukulele that failed to meet my own minimum intonation standard.
The problem lies mostly with sub $200 ukes that are mass produced in a cheap-as-can-be-maintained factory process. These instruments can be very hit or miss. None of them will have received the same full and proper attention as a more expensive instrument would, but some will have come out acceptably well despite this. Others will be horrendous.
If you are seriously considering buying a uke, there are makers and brands that are well-known and well-respected. Also, as others have mentioned, there are distributors that stake their reputations on delivering quality instruments. If you stick to the popular wisdom on this forum in that regard, I think you'll do fine.
I might add as well: the marketplace forum here at UU is a wonderful place to find quality instruments at a reasonable price. I myself have purchased five ukuleles from the UU Marketplace--all acceptably well intoned and all an exceptional value.
