old growth vs new growth trees in relation to instruments

spookelele

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
1,258
Reaction score
17
Someone on a social networking site.. posted a picture that has me really thinking about wood used for instruments. We hear things like. kanilea planting forests of koa because of the shortage of wood. Spruce/cedar/etc are also in this same boat. People have speculated on why stradivarius instruments have their special sounds, and that it was because they were made from trees that grew slowly in a forest that experiences severe winters making the growth slow and the rings close together.

What I am wondering is how this affects the instruments being built when the wood, even though the same species.. is vastly different physically in new growth vs old growth trees. The ring is visibly denser than the pith. And the density must be different. Also, the structure being so physically different must affect the sound?

Anyone know anything about that?

oldvsnew.jpg

1912 vs 2015 same species
 
Last edited:
Im not a pro in the sound science of tone woods etc, but I do know wood fairly well. I can't help but believe that new growth, and old growth woods for instruments would greatly effect the sound and tone quality. Old wood is much tighter grained, and dense than new growth woods, which both of those aspects would effect resonance I would imagine.
 
Someone on a social networking site.. posted a picture that has me really thinking about wood used for instruments. We hear things like. kanilea planting forests of koa because of the shortage of wood. Spruce/cedar/etc are also in this same boat. People have speculated on why stradivarius instruments have their special sounds, and that it was because they were made from trees that grew slowly in a forest that experiences severe winters making the growth slow and the rings close together.

What I am wondering is how this affects the instruments being built when the wood, even though the same species.. is vastly different physically in new growth vs old growth trees. The ring is visibly denser than the pith. And the density must be different. Also, the structure being so physically different must affect the sound?

Anyone know anything about that?

View attachment 109581

1912 vs 2015 same species

I would never hear the difference, I'm sure.
 
I would never hear the difference, I'm sure.
Sometimes I hear something I like and just enjoy it till its over without thinking much about it.
I am convinced that quarter sawn Old Growth Redwood is the way to go. Local prejudice I guess.
 
The preference for old growth/tight grain wood certainly exists amongst instrument builders and they, and you the customer pay for the privilege yet more and more builders are changing their minds when they do start to build with wide grained timber.

Instruments with wide grain patterns can be very good instruments if they are built by a skilled luthier and the differences are just cosmetic.
 
Where the trees are grown is just as important as the species. Altitude is a critical factor, for both koa and spruce, ideal growing conditions for tone wood are between 2000-3000 ft.
Bradford

Yes,yes! Also, how the wood is cared for after it is harvested, whether from a live tree or from a long on the ground or in a river log. The curing (drying), how it is sawn into usable pieces, and long term storage environment also plays an important role in both new and old growth lumber.
 
Last edited:
I would imagine natural drying out vs kiln drying also makes a difference. Doesn’t Kamaka dry their wood for like 4 years whereas other manufacturers like Koaloha kiln dry. Don’t know about Kanilea or Ko Olau. People seem to like both Kamakas and Koalohas.
 
Im not a pro in the sound science of tone woods etc, but I do know wood fairly well. I can't help but believe that new growth, and old growth woods for instruments would greatly effect the sound and tone quality. Old wood is much tighter grained, and dense than new growth woods, which both of those aspects would effect resonance I would imagine.

What's the reason for that? I'm guessing better growing conditions before the arrival of "civilization," but there must be specific reasons. Is that situation true around the world?
 
Old growth vs new growth doesn't matter much to koa, which is a fast growing acacia.
Where it does matter a great deal is for conifers, spruce, cedar, redwood, etc.
And the important idea here isn't that it was grown in virgin forest, but that it grew in an environment that was crowded and shady.
This produces small growth rings and stronger wood, it does take a long time, and doesn't favor commercial tree farms which are looking for max yield.
Again, this is for soft woods, not hard woods.
Virgin hard wood forests of the Eastern U.S are almost entirely gone, and have been for a long time now.
From what I recall North American hard woods stronger when they are not grown slowly.

As for kiln dried vs air dried, they have kiln drying down to a science and I doubt one person in 10,000 could distinguish between the two once the process is complete.
That's my guess and I could be wrong. (My wife calls me Cliff Claven, sometimes.)
All that said, who wouldn't prefer Old growth wood that has been carefully air dried for a decade or two, but the economic reality is that most of us
couldn't afford it. And it is all about cost.
A one of my wife's instruments is solid and it cost more than all the other instruments in the house put together.
All mine are laminates, and I'm happy to have them.
 
I would never hear the difference, I'm sure.

I believe that almost anyone could hear the difference between two instruments that were made the same but used those
woods in the picture to make the sound board.
I think the difference would be profound, and I have an indifferent ear.
 
As builder, my view is that the most important factor is the wood's longitudinal stiffness v. its density. What I want for my builds is wood which is both light and stiff. That might be old growth, might be new. I can't detect any trend there.

For cosmetics, the difference can be very big. Do you like wide grain lines or narrow?

And in terms of sound, you'll definitely hear a difference, because no two pieces of wood (even consecutive slices from the same tree) sound identical. Which one you'd like best I have no idea, and nor do you until you hear them! And of course, you'd have to hear them blindfold, because we all buy with our eyes.
 
Top Bottom