Setup question

I have had a custom built uke since 1997 that I never really bonded with in part due to intonation. It is off enough to make it untunable, 7-8 cents sharp at the fifth fret on the E string for example. I got around that by making a zero fret out a spare piece of saddle but that cramped the first fret and wasn't very attractive. So having read here many times about setting up a uke I decided to give it a go. First thing I noticed was the action is way too high so I started by sanding down the saddle. Trouble is, that didn't really make much difference and I'm just about to the top of the slot. So as an experiment I tuned it up without the saddle (see pic) and viola the action is great and the intonation within tolerance. So now what? Even if I file the saddle down to just above the bridge won't I be moving the contact point back again and throwing it out of tune? I'm assuming the string length now is between the nut and the front of the bridge but even the front of the slot would be shorter then with the saddle in. I don't want to move the bridge so what other options do I have? This is my first attempt at a setup, thankfully all my other ukes (or the ones I care about anyway) are setup nicely and I hope I'm not in over my head

John

I'd imagine your 12th fret isn't set half way between the nut & the saddle, where it should be.
I wouldn't want to leave the strings where you have them as they will dig a groove into the bridge wood.
Maybe try fitting a very thin piece of metal over the front edge of the bridge, a piece of tin can with a 90 degree bend, not ideal, but might just work.
Ideally, that bridge needs to be re-set in the right place.

(Did the nut ever fall out - maybe it is back to front.)

Croaky Keith said:

I'd imagine your 12th fret isn't set half way between the nut & the saddle, where it should be.
I wouldn't want to leave the strings where you have them as they will dig a groove into the bridge wood.
Maybe try fitting a very thin piece of metal over the front edge of the bridge, a piece of tin can with a 90 degree bend, not ideal, but might just work.
Ideally, that bridge needs to be re-set in the right place.

(Did the nut ever fall out - maybe it is back to front.)

Click to expand...

I had a hard time getting the saddle out so it was how it has always been. I'll have to measure with the saddle in and see where the 12th fret falls between the two. Maybe a new bridge needs to be made, one that I can put in the right spot but also cover the gap in the finish left from moving the original one. How do I safely remove a bridge?

John

John, this may not be terribly helpful, I know, but as a general starting point, I believe that if your intonation is off in the direction of being too "sharp", then you'd actually want to get that "contact point" located more rearward (that is, toward the lower bout of the uke); in other words, you'd be seeking to "lengthen" the distance between the nut and the contact point on the saddle (on my Stratocaster, for instance, if a string is intonating sharp, I turn the screw on the individually-adjustable saddle so as to pull that saddle rearward, rather than push it forward). If I'm correct on that, then I'm a little surprised that your intonation actually improved when you effectively "shortened" the contact point! But these things are multi-faceted, I realize!

If You haven't already , You should check the action at the nut before you do anything with the bridge.

Bill Sheehan said:

John, this may not be terribly helpful, I know, but as a general starting point, I believe that if your intonation is off in the direction of being too "sharp", then you'd actually want to get that "contact point" located more rearward (that is, toward the lower bout of the uke); in other words, you'd be seeking to "lengthen" the distance between the nut and the contact point on the saddle (on my Stratocaster, for instance, if a string is intonating sharp, I turn the screw on the individually-adjustable saddle so as to pull that saddle rearward, rather than push it forward). If I'm correct on that, then I'm a little surprised that your intonation actually improved when you effectively "shortened" the contact point! But these things are multi-faceted, I realize!

Click to expand...

I know what you are saying, it seems very counter intuitive that making the string length shorter makes it LESS sharp but it does. It is something I first noticed on an old Harmony Johnny Marvin concert, when I put in a zero fret the intonation which had been sharp got much better. I have no idea why.

John

Pukulele Pete said:

If You haven't already , You should check the action at the nut before you do anything with the bridge.

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I need to get a better ruler to measure with but just by eyeball the action at the nut is consistent with my other ukes. The action at the 12th fret with the saddle in as original was 3mm as far as I could tell, much higher then my others. I had hoped just lowering would be enough but it obviously isn't.

John

Depending on how much you are sharp, you may be able to compensate the saddle, without moving the bridge.
The plastic/bone/etc piece is usually like.. 2mm, so you could shape a saddle so that the contact edge is all the way toward the nut.

Well my guess is that once you removed the saddle, the true contact point of the string moved to the back edge of the bridge right forward of the string tie slot. That would have lengthened the string and moved the intonation away from being sharp. If this is working for you for both intonation and string height, why not just use it that way? I can imagine though that you might well get buzzing from the string hitting the rest of the bridge forward of the slots, and that the wood in contact with the strings will begin to wear grooves since it isn't that hard or meant to take that kind of wear. If you don't want to pay to have the bridge steamed off and reglued where it belongs, then I would probably experiment with gluing a thin narrow strip of something hard (micarta, metal, ebony, bone, plastic) just forward of the string slots. If that raised the strings more than you wanted you could sand the bridge down first and then apply the strip.

besley said:

Well my guess is that once you removed the saddle, the true contact point of the string moved to the back edge of the bridge right forward of the string tie slot. That would have lengthened the string and moved the intonation away from being sharp. If this is working for you for both intonation and string height, why not just use it that way? I can imagine though that you might well get buzzing from the string hitting the rest of the bridge forward of the slots, and that the wood in contact with the strings will begin to wear grooves since it isn't that hard or meant to take that kind of wear. If you don't want to pay to have the bridge steamed off and reglued where it belongs, then I would probably experiment with gluing a thin narrow strip of something hard (micarta, metal, ebony, bone, plastic) just forward of the string slots. If that raised the strings more than you wanted you could sand the bridge down first and then apply the strip.

Click to expand...

I was thinking along the lines you are, gluing a hard strip to make a new saddle where it needs to be. My eyes are not the best so I'm not quite sure where the string hits, there is no buzzing so it is not along a flat surface. Your observation would make sense given that the intonation got flatter after I removed the saddle. I'll see if I can find something that I can use and see if placing it where you suggest works. Thanks, you might have saved me a lot of frustration

John

jelow1966 said:

I was thinking along the lines you are, gluing a hard strip to make a new saddle where it needs to be. My eyes are not the best so I'm not quite sure where the string hits, there is no buzzing so it is not along a flat surface. Your observation would make sense given that the intonation got flatter after I removed the saddle. I'll see if I can find something that I can use and see if placing it where you suggest works. Thanks, you might have saved me a lot of frustration

John

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If there is string buzz on the front edge of the bridge, sanding it down even just 1mm might be enough to resolve that issue provided the string action is high enough with the contact point being the rear edge of the saddle slot and you do not have strings bottoming-out on the first few frets from the action being too low.

This bottoming out can occur if your nut slots are as low as possible for proper intonation (check with a tuner the open string and 2nd or 3rd fret to see if the fretted notes are sharp) and you have a ~2.5mm or lower string action at the 12th fret.

The lowest I was able to set up the saddle on a uke with the nut slots down low enough for having the intonation on the 3rd fret be no more than 3 cents sharp was such that the 12th fret string height was 2.6mm, but one needs to know the 'string geometry' and the string needs a slight incline from the fretboard when going from the nut to the saddle, otherwise your strings will either bottom out on the first few frets, or will slap the fretboard when strumming more vigorously, and this slapping will sap your volume and sounds almost like a snare drum effect when playing.

Just a thought, could you set the saddle height flush with the wood as you want, but slot the wood for the strings.
So the height is as you want it but the contact would be back on the saddle.

How accurate can we expect a good ukulele to be?
Forgive me if I am an out of tune peasant, but aside from high quality steel string electric guitars with a fully adjustable bridge and saddle, I assumed all other acoustic instruments - especially nylon stringed ones - will only ever be approximately well intonated

Attempting to post.

Cigar Box Uke - Tuning.
"Nobody has yet said how to use a tuner for intonation. You can do it by ear just about as well. You want the harmonic at the 12th fret to match the fretted note at the 12th fret. Ignore the actual pitch, it's going to change as you move the bridge anyway. If the fretted note is flat, then the bridge is too far toward the tailpiece. If the fretted note is a bit sharp, it's because it's too close to the neck side of things. Adjust until both fretted and harmonic are the same. Now you can use the tuner to check your work, and make tiny adjustments as needed."

http://www.ukulelemag.com/gear-reviews/gear-guru-great-ukulele
http://www.theukulelereview.com/2011/05/07/ukulele-setup/
https://www.gotaukulele.com/2016/05/how-to-adjust-ukulele-action-at-saddle.html
https://yousician.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/207312545-Setting-up-your-ukulele
https://www.ukulele-arts.com/learn/the-setup-of-the-ukulele/?lang=en

kissing said:

How accurate can we expect a good ukulele to be?
Forgive me if I am an out of tune peasant, but aside from high quality steel string electric guitars with a fully adjustable bridge and saddle, I assumed all other acoustic instruments - especially nylon stringed ones - will only ever be approximately well intonated

Click to expand...

Maybe you have not experienced them, but there are plenty of well-intonated classical guitars and ukes of all scales out there that are no more than 2-3 cents out of intonation all the way up the neck.

Just one example is my concert Flea is no more than 3 cents sharp on the C string, and that is only after the 5th fret, and the other 3 strings are all at max 2 cents sharp all the way up the neck. My friend Booli that has many Fluke and Flea ukes has demonstrated this good or better intonation on his ukes as well.

This all will vary greatly on both string diameter and string tension. One needs to be willing to invest the time to test different strings, and learn how the strings differ from uke to uke as does intonation. Some ukes need to have the saddle and/or nut compensated not only for intonation, but also for string action for each individual player.

Tuning an instrument's string geometry is both an art and a science.

I think most people either don't know, don't care (due to lacking the hearing acuity to tell the difference), or give up too easily and just accept crap intonation with the wrong strings because it is often a regurgitated myth that ukes cannot intonate well enough.

There is proof that they can, but one needs to be open minded and persistent, otherwise a $50 Makala Dolphin with "whatever" strings will suit one just fine if they are willing to either compromise or just give up.

But hey, whatever makes you happy is all that matters. If playing a poorly intonated instrument does not bother you, then power on and just make the music, for that is what really makes it worth your time.

I do not judge.

kissing said:

How accurate can we expect a good ukulele to be?
Forgive me if I am an out of tune peasant, but aside from high quality steel string electric guitars with a fully adjustable bridge and saddle, I assumed all other acoustic instruments - especially nylon stringed ones - will only ever be approximately well intonated

Click to expand...

Like Joe said, 2-3 cents off is acceptable, especially up the neck. But 7 or so sharp at the 5th is not, makes an instrument untunable, tuned to itself each string gets progressively sharper or tuned to the proper frequency on the open strings and chords don't work.

John

I would fill the slot with ebony and re slot the bridge where it needs to be. If you move the bridge then you have to deal with the finish. I add 1.5mm of compisation to my scale length and the intonation is pretty close, within a few cents. Just my 2 cents....get it?.. haha sorry for the pun...
Steve

I want to thank everyone who has replied, you've given me much to think about. As you can see in the pic I've attached, where the wire 'saddle' is gives the uke perfect (or close to it) intonation. By my measurements that is 5mm behind where the contact point on the saddle was. I knew it was bad, but wow, I'm surprised my cheap fix ever worked at all. This was made by a very reputable builder but it's honestly the sort of crap that Indian sitar makers are notorious for when sending instruments to the West- just ship it out and it's the buyers problem. And at least with a sitar the bridge is easily moved so some of them can be salvaged as players, I got a super deal on a surbahar that way, less then half price because the bridge had to be moved. Being friends with the owner of the business selling it didn't hurt either. Anyway, I will look into filling the slot and going from there as to making some sort of saddle better then a bit of wire. Thanks again, this uke may yet be playable, if not as cosmetically as pretty.

John