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seeso
08-05-2009, 02:13 PM
Hello all.

I've been noticing that the amount of cussing on the forums has been rising. There aren't any rules against swearing on UU, so I can't do too much about it, but can you guys please try to clean it up? Remember, there are children on this site.

If you have to cuss, at least put asterisks in it.

Link
08-05-2009, 02:44 PM
****!

(Great idea)

mrUKETOBER
08-05-2009, 02:55 PM
it was probably me my bad s***... i have typing torrettes please forgives me :D

bbycrts
08-05-2009, 03:08 PM
Hahaha...the PW brigade checks in first. Thanks - and sorry Seeso. We should all have the class to keep it clean, I guess!

mrUKETOBER
08-05-2009, 03:20 PM
lol @ the pw birgade

itsme
08-05-2009, 03:38 PM
My daddy used to say that people who cuss just show they lack the vocabulary to say what they meant more eloquently. :)

DeG
08-05-2009, 04:40 PM
eh, hem ...:wtf: ?

Uncle-Taco
08-05-2009, 04:57 PM
My daddy used to say that people who cuss just show they lack the vocabulary to say what they meant more eloquently. :)

My daddy always said, "@!?#@ people who think their language is better than mine!" ;)

*Cute FYI: I just read a book in which I learned that this type of thing:
*^%!@#!
is called a grawlix. The term was invented by Mort Walker, the artist who draws Beetle Bailey.

pithaya9
08-05-2009, 05:07 PM
eh, hem ...:wtf: ?

:eek: Good point DeG

salukulady
08-05-2009, 05:09 PM
My daddy always said, "@!?#@ people who think their language is better than mine!" ;)

*Cute FYI: I just read a book in which I learned that this type of thing:
*^%!@#!
is called a grawlix. The term was invented by Mort Walker, the artist who draws Beetle Bailey. Will do, seeso. We can type (insert grawlix here) when we feel the need to cuss.

specialmike
08-05-2009, 05:12 PM
wtf= what's this for.

Uncle-Taco
08-05-2009, 05:36 PM
wtf= what's this for.

Funny. I would write "WTF?" on my students' essays when they veered off topic. I didn't know it stood for anything besides "What's this for?" until I got called to the TA supervisor's office. :eek:

DeG
08-05-2009, 05:56 PM
Funny. I would write "WTF?" on my students' essays when they veered off topic. I didn't know it stood for anything besides "What's this for?" until I got called to the TA supervisor's office. :eek:

LOL!:rotfl:

I guess either meaning of the abbreviation would work in that situation!

vahn
08-05-2009, 05:56 PM
Funny. I would write "WTF?" on my students' essays when they veered off topic. I didn't know it stood for anything besides "What's this for?" until I got called to the TA supervisor's office. :eek:

hahhahahhahhahha thats so funny, if I got a paper like that back, i'd be like wow thats a little harsh...

Citrus
08-05-2009, 06:07 PM
yeah that's pretty hilarious. On a side note, I have found that vulgarity is but a crutch for inarticulate sons of *!#$%'s

GreyPoupon
08-05-2009, 06:11 PM
As usual Sesso is a classy guy.

bbycrts
08-05-2009, 07:23 PM
As usual Sesso is a classy guy.

Amen to that, brother!

Uncle Rod Higuchi
08-05-2009, 07:28 PM
Another great example of the sensible and responsible attitude of the Moderators of UU.

I was wondering about the (WTF) smilie. I'm glad it legitimately means something than what first entered my mind!

Goes to show how easily unwanted and unwarranted phrases seep into our consciousness.

Kudos to the UU Moderators for nipping this in the bud.

What a wonderful place to meet, greet, and enjoy each others' company.

Mahalo,

deach
08-06-2009, 04:14 AM
My daddy used to say that people who cuss just show they lack the vocabulary to say what they meant more eloquently. :)

Being eloquent has its place. Cuss words have a time a place too.

molokinirum
08-06-2009, 05:03 AM
I agree there is no need to swear on this site and yes there are kids on here as well.

Rick Turner
08-06-2009, 05:50 AM
The less people use their own names on the Internet, the more rude they tend to be. "Handles" are cute, but tend to cover questionable behaviour. Just an observation...

I have no problem identifying myself, and I try not to say anything on forums that I wouldn't say in person or in front of children.

ke leo
08-06-2009, 06:20 AM
The less people use their own names on the Internet, the more rude they tend to be. "Handles" are cute, but tend to cover questionable behaviour. Just an observation...

I have no problem identifying myself, and I try not to say anything on forums that I wouldn't say in person or in front of children.

I agree Rick. Thanks Seeso for trying to clean up the language....Greg

DaveVisi
08-06-2009, 07:04 AM
I don't hide from anyone.

I use a "handle" just because my last name is hard to spell out all the time. But my first name is indeed David and my last initial is indeed "V".

I have two variations depending on whether I'm talking magic or music.

It just makes things easier that way.

UkuEroll
08-06-2009, 10:53 PM
Being eloquent has its place. Cuss words have a time a place too.

I agree, but I think it's common sense, to moderate your language , some people on here would never swear and others like myself can be potty mouths, although I do swear I try not to on here as I know it offends some folk, and of course there a minors here.

eerteep
08-07-2009, 03:39 AM
...cussin' on the kb takes too much time...i'm a 'get to the point' type-of-guy—cussin' only prolongs the process...i don't even have patience to hit the 'shift' button for caps! lol.
thanks for keepin' the cuss to a minimum seeso!
: )
p.
p.s. i'm a live cusser...i only cuss in person...moreso after a few glug:shaka:glug.

Skrik
08-07-2009, 05:58 AM
The less people use their own names on the Internet, the more rude they tend to be. "Handles" are cute, but tend to cover questionable behaviour. Just an observation...

I have no problem identifying myself, and I try not to say anything on forums that I wouldn't say in person or in front of children.

I have no trouble with revealing myself, either, but the kids I work with, who sometimes get it into their heads to dredge the Internet for anything that'll stick at school or at home (and their parents are, on occasion, even worse), make it more desirable for me to hide behind a simple handle.

There is a time for everything -- swearing, and hiding, too.

Oh, and if we believe that children don't hear swearing, then we have forgotten what it is like to be a kid. It is a part of life.

ichadwick
08-07-2009, 07:05 AM
...can you guys please try to clean it up? Remember, there are children on this site.Me, I use invective only when it's the appropriate place to do so (hammer hitting thumb, for example).

But what I find terribly insulting and offensive is the improper grammar online. If swearing in front of children is bad, surely using bad English is worse because it teaches them to communicate poorly and inefficiently.

The inability of adult English-speaking people to punctuate effectively, use capital letters, conjugate verbs, make proper subject-verb agreement, spell correctly - THESE are the real obscenities. This sort of slovenly, puerile, semi-literate crap makes me want to swear aloud.... %#$@#^! But not in front of the children...

thejumpingflea
08-07-2009, 07:07 AM
Me, I use invective only when it's the appropriate place to do so (hammer hitting thumb, for example).

But what I find terribly insulting and offensive is the improper grammar online. If swearing in front of children is bad, surely using bad English is worse because it teaches them to communicate poorly and inefficiently.

The inability of adult English-speaking people to punctuate effectively, use capital letters, conjugate verbs, make proper subject-verb agreement, spell correctly - THESE are the real obscenities. This sort of slovenly, puerile, semi-literate crap makes me want to swear aloud.... %#$@#^! But not in front of the children...

:worship:


You sir, just made my day!

Thumper
08-07-2009, 07:40 AM
But what I find terribly insulting and offensive is the improper grammar online. If swearing in front of children is bad, surely using bad English is worse because it teaches them to communicate poorly and inefficiently.

The inability of adult English-speaking people to punctuate effectively, use capital letters, conjugate verbs, make proper subject-verb agreement, spell correctly - THESE are the real obscenities. This sort of slovenly, puerile, semi-literate crap makes me want to swear aloud.... %#$@#^! But not in front of the children...


Hear, hear.

While I cannot imagine life without the Internet, as a professional communicator I really hate the effect it has had on how people communicate in writing. It's getting hella bad.

Ken
08-07-2009, 07:46 AM
Thankfully (and intriguingly) the UU community seems to fare pretty well at communicating with correct grammar. Does more music = better communication skills? Or just the type of people the Ukulele attracts?

eerteep
08-07-2009, 07:56 AM
Me, I use invective only when it's the appropriate place to do so (hammer hitting thumb, for example).

But what I find terribly insulting and offensive is the improper grammar online. If swearing in front of children is bad, surely using bad English is worse because it teaches them to communicate poorly and inefficiently.

The inability of adult English-speaking people to punctuate effectively, use capital letters, conjugate verbs, make proper subject-verb agreement, spell correctly - THESE are the real obscenities. This sort of slovenly, puerile, semi-literate crap makes me want to swear aloud.... %#$@#^! But not in front of the children...

i most certainly do hope that my refusing to use the shift button to get a contributing idea re:the use of vulgarity in a forum environment did not offend.
my only beef is when 4 dots are used as an ellipsis instead of 3...;)
i guess there's no better way to end this non-cap prose/ramble than with a colon, a space and a closing parenthesis.
: )
p.

nikolo727
08-07-2009, 08:08 AM
my daddy always said, " stop being such a dumb@$$ !!!"

jk, well he does say that, but its in good fun. but yes, I need to watch my mouth.


^i just realized what I used as filters for the swear word. So legendary i have to keep it that way.

ichadwick
08-07-2009, 08:52 AM
...my only beef is when 4 dots are used as an ellipsis instead of 3...
According to most style guides (Chicago Manual, for one, plus the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis)), when an ellipsis follows a complete sentence, the period is included, for a total of four periods:

An ellipsis at the end of a sentence with no sentence following should be followed by a period (for a total of four dots).
And I'm not offended by someone refusing to use the shift key - it's a minor affectation, like wearing socks with sandals, faux-goth tattoos, wearing a cravat instead of a tie, or pronouncing the word "zee-bra" instead of the correct "zeh-bra." But it is annoying, the same way a buzzing mosquito or a yappy dog is annoying.

Think of the children: they might think adults actually write like that for real, not just to make some nebulous, rather inexplicable point. They might think adults incapable of actually coordinating the shift key with their typing. Children might imitate it - like the way they imitated ball players wearing backwards caps, or rap singers wearing knee-deep-crotch pants. Unfortunately, while imitating a silly pop-culture fashion will only get you laughed at (and you can grow out of it), imitating bad language could stifle your job prospects and your future ability to get ahead.

Set a good example; if not for yourself, then for the children. Write the best you can, not the worst. Eschew invective, but embrace capitalization.

Ukulele JJ
08-07-2009, 09:27 AM
my only beef is when 4 dots are used as an ellipsis instead of 3...;)


Ellipses, in general, are horribly misused these days. People seem to just pack as many dots as they feel like. More often than not, it should just be a period there anyway. :wallbash:


JJ

eerteep
08-07-2009, 09:30 AM
According to most style guides (Chicago Manual, for one, plus the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis)), when an ellipsis follows a complete sentence, the period is included, for a total of four periods:

And I'm not offended by someone refusing to use the shift key - it's a minor affectation, like wearing socks with sandals, faux-goth tattoos, wearing a cravat instead of a tie, or pronouncing the word "zee-bra" instead of the correct "zeh-bra." But it is annoying, the same way a buzzing mosquito or a yappy dog is annoying.

Think of the children: they might think adults actually write like that for real, not just to make some nebulous, rather inexplicable point. They might think adults incapable of actually coordinating the shift key with their typing. Children might imitate it - like the way they imitated ball players wearing backwards caps, or rap singers wearing knee-deep-crotch pants. Unfortunately, while imitating a silly pop-culture fashion will only get you laughed at (and you can grow out of it), imitating bad language could stifle your job prospects and your future ability to get ahead.

Set a good example; if not for yourself, then for the children. Write the best you can, not the worst. Eschew invective, but embrace capitalization.


You sir, have gone through an awful lot to prove a point. I did not come here to 'match wits with you' on matters of punctuation or grammar, but to offer brief levity on the matter of vulgarity; apparently this had gone unnoticed.
Your punctuation concerns have been duly noted.
buzz yap...
: )
p.

Teek
08-07-2009, 09:51 AM
I agree with Seeso.

I'm curious Ian, were you really serious about "zebra"? This is a US based forum, and here the letter is "zee", not "zed", and we say "zee-brah" accordingly, no disrespect intended if you were indeed serious.

What do Brits call this little guy? His momma is an ass. His papa is a "zeee brah". :D

http://home.earthlink.net/~dharmacowboy/zonkey.jpg

Thumper
08-07-2009, 09:56 AM
I agree with Seeso.

I'm curious Ian, were you really serious about "zebra"? This is a US based forum, and here the letter is "zee", not "zed", and we say "zee-brah" accordingly, no disrespect intended if you were indeed serious.



I suspect Ian is a fan of that famous Texas blues band, Zed Zed Top. ;)

eerteep
08-07-2009, 10:13 AM
I suspect Ian is a fan of that famous Texas blues band, Zed Zed Top. ;)

Zed Zed Top rocks!:D

Melissa82
08-07-2009, 10:31 AM
I say zed not zee when referring to the letter only.

Skrik
08-07-2009, 10:38 AM
Think of the children: they might think adults actually write like that for real, not just to make some nebulous, rather inexplicable point.

I have news for you...

Pippin
08-07-2009, 10:55 AM
i most certainly do hope that my refusing to use the shift button to get a contributing idea re:the use of vulgarity in a forum environment did not offend.
my only beef is when 4 dots are used as an ellipsis instead of 3...;)
i guess there's no better way to end this non-cap prose/ramble than with a colon, a space and a closing parenthesis.
: )
p.

:biglaugh:

... It is nice to see people use proper grammar (not common online, however).

Pippin
08-07-2009, 11:06 AM
You sir, have gone through an awful lot to prove a point. I did not come here to 'match wits with you' on matters of punctuation or grammar, but to offer brief levity on the matter of vulgarity; apparently this had gone unnoticed.
Your punctuation concerns have been duly noted.
buzz yap...
: )
p.

Hey!

You forgot the last "." there bucko... hehehehe :D

cashew
08-07-2009, 11:08 AM
Is there a link I can go to where the offensive words are listed?

I can imagine that the directive, don't use any words that you wouldn't use in front of your mother would be an appropriate way to judge what words are offensive.

eerteep
08-07-2009, 11:10 AM
Hey!

You forgot the last "." there bucko... hehehehe :D

:eek::D
: )
p.

ihavenotea
08-07-2009, 11:11 AM
According to most style guides (Chicago Manual, for one, plus the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis)), when an ellipsis follows a complete sentence, the period is included, for a total of four periods:

And I'm not offended by someone refusing to use the shift key - it's a minor affectation, like wearing socks with sandals, faux-goth tattoos, wearing a cravat instead of a tie, or pronouncing the word "zee-bra" instead of the correct "zeh-bra." But it is annoying, the same way a buzzing mosquito or a yappy dog is annoying.

Think of the children: they might think adults actually write like that for real, not just to make some nebulous, rather inexplicable point. They might think adults incapable of actually coordinating the shift key with their typing. Children might imitate it - like the way they imitated ball players wearing backwards caps, or rap singers wearing knee-deep-crotch pants. Unfortunately, while imitating a silly pop-culture fashion will only get you laughed at (and you can grow out of it), imitating bad language could stifle your job prospects and your future ability to get ahead.

Set a good example; if not for yourself, then for the children. Write the best you can, not the worst. Eschew invective, but embrace capitalization.


I think the saddest thing is that so many prolific bad habits online primarily exist due to the lack of strong typing skills within the general population. It is a shame, really, when so much communication takes place via the keyboard. It is very liberating to be able to type full paragraphs quickly when having an IM conversation or replying in a forum.

I think a lot of grammatical errors stem from this as well; if you type fast enough you will type much like you speak. Most folks don't speak with poor grammar. They may not use formal grammar, but they do use regionally correct grammar which tends to be very consistent and understandable. Whereas if typing is slow, you will use an economy of words and unintentionally make many more grammar mistakes that a fast touch typist.


Ellipses, in general, are horribly misused these days. People seem to just pack as many dots as they feel like. More often than not, it should just be a period there anyway. :wallbash:


I horribly misuse ellipses. Heck, I know exactly what key to use on the Mac to generate an ellipse character in a single stroke: Option-; Anyone who types that rather than three dots has a problem. My other bad habits are overusing parenthetical statements and/or em-dash sidebars.

At least I have stopped nesting parenthetical statements. That was madness.

P.S. – I am totally in the Zee-bra camp.

Ukulele JJ
08-07-2009, 11:34 AM
I horribly misuse ellipses. Heck, I know exactly what key to use on the Mac to generate an ellipse character in a single stroke: Option-; Anyone who types that rather than three dots has a problem.

Actually, I tip my hat to that! In professional typography, the ellipsis really is a single "symbol", and it looks noticably different from three periods. Typing it your way is correct.

Same goes for the em dash. Using two dashes ("--") instead of a proper em dash character ("—") is a typographic faux pas.

(Note that some programs, such as MS Word, will auto-correct three periods and two dashes to the correct glyph.)

The typographic error that you see most often these days is the use of two spaces after a sentence. Usually the people who do this one are the ones who first learned to type on typewriters (where two spaces would be correct).

JJ

WhenDogsSing
08-07-2009, 11:40 AM
Actually, I tip my hat to that! In professional typography, the ellipsis really is a single "symbol", and it looks noticably different from three periods. Typing it your way is correct.

Same goes for the em dash. Using two dashes ("--") instead of a proper em dash character ("—") is a typographic faux pas.

(Note that some programs, such as MS Word, will auto-correct three periods and two dashes to the correct glyph.)

The typographic error that you see most often these days is the use of two spaces after a sentence. Usually the people who do this one are the ones who first learned to type on typewriters (where two spaces would be correct).

JJ

This is a great discussion. I am one who learned to type on a typewriter and I always use 2 spaces after a sentence. :D

eerteep
08-07-2009, 12:01 PM
Actually, I tip my hat to that! In professional typography, the ellipsis really is a single "symbol", and it looks noticably different from three periods. Typing it your way is correct.

Same goes for the em dash. Using two dashes ("--") instead of a proper em dash character ("—") is a typographic faux pas.

(Note that some programs, such as MS Word, will auto-correct three periods and two dashes to the correct glyph.)

The typographic error that you see most often these days is the use of two spaces after a sentence. Usually the people who do this one are the ones who first learned to type on typewriters (where two spaces would be correct).


JJ
i took graphic design in college and am quite familiar with the 'option-;' ellipsis…i pretty much only use it to save character strikes when i need to make a long comment in a limited space—and i do find myself using the 'em-dash' quite often(i am also quite guilty at parenthesizing an addendum rather than restructuring a whole paragraph, causing me to break my train of thought—what was i saying again?:confused:).
other than that, i'm cool with hittin' the '.' three times when nobody's lookin'...
i've taken 'creative license' in my non-use of capitals when typing in 'non-formal' cases, but have been known to use them…when needed.
...and if any children are reading this, please learn your capitalization, punctuation and grammer...then feel free to use a calculator.:p
: )
p.

eerteep
08-07-2009, 12:10 PM
i took graphic design in college and am quite familiar with the 'option-;' ellipsis…i pretty much only use it to save character strikes when i need to make a long comment in a limited space—and i do find myself using the 'em-dash' quite often(i am also quite guilty at parenthesizing an addendum rather than restructuring a whole paragraph, causing me to break my train of thought—what was i saying again?:confused:).
other than that, i'm cool with hittin' the '.' three times when nobody's lookin'...
i've taken 'creative license' in my non-use of capitals when typing in 'non-formal' cases, but have been known to use them…when needed.
...and if any children are reading this, please learn your capitalization, punctuation and grammer...then feel free to use a calculator.:p
: )
p.

er...i mean 'grammar'(left my spelling calculator at school).
: )
p.

Ukulele JJ
08-07-2009, 12:24 PM
This is a great discussion. I am one who learned to type on a typewriter and I always use 2 spaces after a sentence. :D

I learned on an old-school typewriter too, and I was a stauch two-spacer for quite awhile after.

But then this book (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0201782634) changed my life. :D

JJ

ichadwick
08-07-2009, 01:20 PM
I'm curious Ian, were you really serious about "zebra"? This is a US based forum, and here the letter is "zee", not "zed", and we say "zee-brah" accordingly, no disrespect intended if you were indeed serious.
Has nothing to do with being US, British or Canadian-based. It's merely based on the basic rules of pronunciation in the common tongue. Exceptions are, of course, expected. But in general...

Where a noun has a single consonant between syllables, the first vowel is pronounced long and is pronounced short where two consonants divide syllables: holy, holly; cater, chatter; ribald, ribbon; mater, matter; pater, Patterson and thus zebra (zeh-bra) because of the dual consonants, not zee bra (zee-ro has one consonant, for example).

You don't call a woman who spells her name Debra as "Dee-bra" do you? It's Zeh-bruski Point (the movie) not Zee-bruski. So why would anyone say "zee-bra" when the rules are clear?

It's about logic, rules of language (yes, English has them) and common sense. Has nothing to do with how the English pronounce the last letter of the common alphabet or how the Americans invented a new pronunciation (with no scholastic merit or valid reason behind said invention aside from curmudgeonliness). It's simply how you usually pronounce a vowel before a double consonant in English.

ihavenotea
08-07-2009, 01:25 PM
Actually, I tip my hat to that! In professional typography, the ellipsis really is a single "symbol", and it looks noticably different from three periods. Typing it your way is correct.

Same goes for the em dash. Using two dashes ("--") instead of a proper em dash character ("—") is a typographic faux pas.

(Note that some programs, such as MS Word, will auto-correct three periods and two dashes to the correct glyph.)

The typographic error that you see most often these days is the use of two spaces after a sentence. Usually the people who do this one are the ones who first learned to type on typewriters (where two spaces would be correct).

JJ

Oh, I am personally quite picky about my dashes. Em Dash (Shift Option -) where appropriate, En Dash (Option -) where appropriate (I will leave it to the pathologically curious to look that up rather than bore the everyone else).

The two space thing is a huge pet peeve of mine. Thankfully, HTML always displays the correct spacing no matter how many spaces you put after a period. I think the thing that bothers me the most is that some folks teaching typing still teach the two space thing as correct.

The other thing that bothers me is that MS Word did the correct thing and just ate the extra space… but users complained… so they turned off that feature. I have no idea what the default is today. That was the late nineties; things may have changed.

I suppose being a typography nerd brings no one joy but myself. Remind me to tell you the story of the letter Þ "thorn" and early English typesetting challenges sometime…

seeso
08-07-2009, 01:37 PM
u guyz r weerd

Link
08-07-2009, 02:07 PM
Wow. Just wow. Hahaha.

Melissa82
08-07-2009, 02:09 PM
u guyz r weerdThey are just being elitist spelling/grammar snobs now. :rolleyes:

DeG
08-07-2009, 02:52 PM
Where the Hell is this thread going?? Crap, I didn't mean to swear , Damn, I did it again... uhhh ...Poopie?

Can I say that?


My bad...





:D

KC8AFW
08-07-2009, 03:14 PM
Where the Hell is this thread going?? Crap, I didn't mean to swear , Damn, I did it again... uhhh ...Poopie?

Can I say that?


My bad...





:D

DeG...your tourettes is acting up again. :rolleyes:

Uncle-Taco
08-07-2009, 03:35 PM
Nothing cracks me up more than snobs correcting my English, especially my spoken English. I "correct" English for a living, and when the quitting bell rings, I'm off the clock!

I have a stack of degrees in it and basically all I know from all of that expensive education is that there IS no authority on what constitutes "proper" English in the United States. (The UK have Oxford and so forth and here, contrary to what most people think, there ain't none.;))

I like saying "y'all."
Ain't most certainly is a word.
I split infinitives, dangle participles (but not in mixed company:rolleyes:) and misplace modifiers.

Y'all don't like it, then !*&%#@##~!! :smileybounce:

itsme
08-07-2009, 03:44 PM
Oh, I am personally quite picky about my dashes. Em Dash (Shift Option -) where appropriate, En Dash (Option -) where appropriate (I will leave it to the pathologically curious to look that up rather than bore the everyone else).

The two space thing is a huge pet peeve of mine. Thankfully, HTML always displays the correct spacing no matter how many spaces you put after a period. I think the thing that bothers me the most is that some folks teaching typing still teach the two space thing as correct.
Hey, I not only learned to type on a typewriter, I learned on a manual typewriter before electric ones were even invented. :eek:

The two space thing goes back to monospace fonts. One of my favorite books, "Digital Type Design Guide" by Sean Cavanaugh (1995, sadly, I believe it's out of print), actually devoted a chapter to email typography and recommends using two spaces because of the fact that email clients (at least at the time) tend to use monospace fonts. The two spaces help(ed) to differentiate sentences better.

Call me a Luddite if you will, but to this day I prefer plain text over html-formatted emails.

As for your em/en dashes, curly quotes and such, there's a reason I don't use them on the intarweb. Your mention of (Shift Option -) leads me to suspect you are a Mac user.

Macs and PCs use different character encoding schemes, so what displays fine for you (on a Mac) by using your keyboard shortcuts may look like gibberish to me (on a PC).

seeso is right, we're venturing into being weird and nit-picky here. :)

I won't say I never make a typo, although I do usually read through my forum posts before hitting the submit button and at least attempt to keep my posts coherent.

Many forums have an international audience where some members don't speak English as their native language. Sadly, these "English as a second language" speakers often have a much better command of written English than native speakers.

Text-speak and elite-speak annoy me. I recall seeing something sometime back about either Australia or New Zealand allowing high school students to use text-speak for their final exams. :rolleyes: That's right up there with some American schools sanctioning "Ebonics" as an alternative to using proper English.

FiPfft
08-07-2009, 03:49 PM
So why are two spaces after a sentence deemed incorrect?

To me, paragraphs eschewing the practice look cramped and messy. Likewise when an en dash is used in the place of an em dash. On the other hand, using three full-stops where a true ellipsis character would do always strikes me as inefficient (but I've been guilty of it many times on the internet, for fear of my correct punctuating being removed – YouTube, for instance, doesn't support much of a character set and I'm always having to go back and reinstate the em dashes and ellipses with -s and ...s).

That tangent wasn't really supposed to happen. I meant to stay on the two spaces topic, as it has the potential to rock my typographical world. I'm the kind of person who has been known to chuck in "& n b s p" (without the spaces, obviously) into HTML documents on occasion, in order to retain the larger gaps it so ruthlessly ignores. In desktop publishing, I guess it would sometimes make perfect sense to use just one space, say, if you're trying to keep a justified paragraph neat-looking. Does it just boil down to monospacing vs proportional fonts? If that's the case, I'm still a bit baffled; not all computer type ends up in proportional fonts and I maintain that sentences with just single spaces between them still look crowded even if they're not monospaced (especially when said sentences are unwieldy and arranged in bloated paragraphs, as I have a horrible habit of making them).

:eek: Wow. Sorry about that.

I agree with what several others have said about the use of expletives; they too have their times and their places, but they can sure as $%^&$(% be offensive when used inappropriately.

As an aside, have you ever noticed the preponderance of the word "crap" in a lot of situations where harsher swearing is censored? Give me more varied, if less accepted, language over monotonous usage of a same few words (which usually mean much the same thing as a lot of the more taboo terms anyway) pretty much any day.

And by the way, amen, Uncle Taco!

Hm. Um. Yes.

FiPfft
08-07-2009, 04:01 PM
Hey, I not only learned to type on a typewriter, I learned on a manual typewriter before electric ones were even invented. :eek:

The two space thing goes back to monospace fonts. One of my favorite books, "Digital Type Design Guide" by Sean Cavanaugh (1995, sadly, I believe it's out of print), actually devoted a chapter to email typography and recommends using two spaces because of the fact that email clients (at least at the time) tend to use monospace fonts. The two spaces help(ed) to differentiate sentences better.

Call me a Luddite if you will, but to this day I prefer plain text over html-formatted emails.

Aha, so it is about monospace fonts. (I too prefer plain text emails… actually, plain-text most stuff).


Text-speak and elite-speak annoy me. I recall seeing something sometime back about either Australia or New Zealand allowing high school students to use text-speak for their final exams. :rolleyes: That's right up there with some American schools sanctioning "Ebonics" as an alternative to using proper English.

I don't quite recall there being much truth to that story, about text-speak in exams, but I didn't pay much attention, so I could well be wrong. Text speak, in my mind, has no place in formal writing, being a system of abbreviation more than it is any true dialect. Of txtspkrs, only my mother will read out a text message as "Em-8! Arrrrrr, letter r, yuuuu, as in U, not Y-O-U…" etc. :p Most would speak the contents of a text message as they would any more standardised text in the same language.

But Ebonics? Man, I don't know anything about the situation with those schools, but I don't know that my objections, if I had any, upon reading up on their stance, would necessarily be anywhere near as strong. Depends entirely on details I don't yet know.

ritzer012
08-07-2009, 04:33 PM
i double majored in english and journalism in college and i am a freak about grammar and language...in educational or professional writing. honestly its something i take pride in. but online? talking with my friends? in a ukulele forum for crying out loud, i dont think its important or matters. to a point, though...severe text speak or sometimes even "island talk" trips me up.

like others mentioned before, i (obviously) dont take the time to capitalize or use apostrophes. and while i do notice and cringe at certain things (like using the wrong "than"!) i dont think it should be obsessed over and i dont think im doing americas youth a disservice either. i grew up with instant messages, chat room and email and i was able to separate intellectual language and casual language and i think thats whats most important in the internet society we live in.

and, even though it is deemed "correct" now, im not giving up my two spaces at the end of sentences...and the MLA style handbook agrees with me...


"As a practical matter, however, there is nothing wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks unless an instructor or editor requests that you do otherwise." -MLA Handbook

eerteep
08-07-2009, 04:52 PM
i double majored in english and journalism in college and i am a freak about grammar and language...in educational or professional writing. honestly its something i take pride in. but online? talking with my friends? in a ukulele forum for crying out loud, i dont think its important or matters. to a point, though...severe text speak or sometimes even "island talk" trips me up.

like others mentioned before, i (obviously) dont take the time to capitalize or use apostrophes. and while i do notice and cringe at certain things (like using the wrong "than"!) i dont think it should be obsessed over and i dont think im doing americas youth a disservice either. i grew up with instant messages, chat room and email and i was able to separate intellectual language and casual language and i think thats whats most important in the internet society we live in.

and, even though it is deemed "correct" now, im not giving up my two spaces at the end of sentences...and the MLA style handbook agrees with me...

well said...
: )
p.

salukulady
08-07-2009, 04:56 PM
I can imagine that the directive, don't use any words that you wouldn't use in front of your mother would be an appropriate way to judge what words are offensive.That statement doesn't help me clean up my language, my Mother taught me all those "bad" words. Yay, Mom!

ritzer012
08-07-2009, 05:17 PM
Yay, Mom!

hahahahahhaha so true/funny

iamdanielle
08-07-2009, 05:45 PM
Seeso, what have you done?

;)

1014
08-07-2009, 06:06 PM
But Ebonics? Man, I don't know anything about the situation with those schools, but I don't know that my objections, if I had any, upon reading up on their stance, would necessarily be anywhere near as strong. Depends entirely on details I don't yet know.

it's not like ebonics is being taught in school, nor is it taking the place of english class. the argument is built upon that the ends is more important than the means. as long as the student understands the concept 2+2, then using "proper" english to explain it isn't necessary. lots of kids don't have a solid background or environment of "standard" english at home, so if inner city school teachers focused solely on the "means" these kids would get discouraged from ever getting to the "ends". it's about building the foundation first and it's how most immersion schools work as well

seeso, if you no like us cuss, shoots! i not going cuss.

ua pau.

haolejohn
08-07-2009, 06:36 PM
Has nothing to do with being US, British or Canadian-based. It's merely based on the basic rules of pronunciation in the common tongue. Exceptions are, of course, expected. But in general...

Where a noun has a single consonant between syllables, the first vowel is pronounced long and is pronounced short where two consonants divide syllables: holy, holly; cater, chatter; ribald, ribbon; mater, matter; pater, Patterson and thus zebra (zeh-bra) because of the dual consonants, not zee bra (zee-ro has one consonant, for example).

You don't call a woman who spells her name Debra as "Dee-bra" do you? It's Zeh-bruski Point (the movie) not Zee-bruski. So why would anyone say "zee-bra" when the rules are clear?

It's about logic, rules of language (yes, English has them) and common sense. Has nothing to do with how the English pronounce the last letter of the common alphabet or how the Americans invented a new pronunciation (with no scholastic merit or valid reason behind said invention aside from curmudgeonliness). It's simply how you usually pronounce a vowel before a double consonant in English.

It's phonics but the rules don't always apply. There are 24 letters but 44 sounds. This is why the english language is so hard to learn.

Teek
08-07-2009, 10:05 PM
1014, WOW, I didn't think that scholarly rap was you until you went "native" again. :D

Ian, I am embarrassed to admit that I almost got my BA in English, loved linguistics, and somehow never picked up the vowel/number of consonants rule. And I thought the pic was a zonkey but the correct term is zedonk.

Yes, Seeso, what have you done??! :eek:

:biglaugh:

Skrik
08-08-2009, 01:17 AM
I don't like this thread no more.

HaileISela
08-08-2009, 01:21 AM
u guyz r weerd

. . .

HaileISela
08-08-2009, 01:27 AM
I won't say I never make a typo, although I do usually read through my forum posts before hitting the submit button and at least attempt to keep my posts coherent.

Many forums have an international audience where some members don't speak English as their native language. Sadly, these "English as a second language" speakers often have a much better command of written English than native speakers.

As I never re-read anything I wrote on any test or exam, I never do this on my forum posts... (Oh, and I tend to use the epilepsy(sp?^^) too often, too...)

But it really is very interesting to read about all this stuff, since I do not really have any clue about it.

Btw, anyone who is interested in capitalizing, cases and other geeky language stuff, feel free to learn German^^

"Deutsch ist eine Sprache, die zu lernen nur Tote Zeit haben." - Mark Twain

HaileISela
08-08-2009, 01:41 AM
I don't recall who sent this to me in the first place here on the forums, but I think it really is funny:


European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations however, the British Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy.

The hard "c" will be dropped in favor of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer people wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Und efter ze fifz yer, ve vil al be speking German like zey vunted in ze forst plas.

btw, a recent reform of the German orthography included several changes that could be taken from this text such as: Philosophie is Filosofie now, Photographie is Fotografie... or Mayonnaise is Majonäse now... It hurts to read that^^

ihavenotea
08-08-2009, 07:27 AM
They are just being elitist spelling/grammar snobs now. :rolleyes:

Elistist Typography snobs, thank you very much. I could care less about spelling and grammar as long as your typography is correct. *laughs at self*


So why are two spaces after a sentence deemed incorrect?

It is a typography thing. In traditional typography you actually have a lot of different spaces available. The spacing after a full stop (i.e., a period) is traditionally slightly wider than the spacing between words and other punctuation.

Most operating systems, word processors, and web browsers all do this automatically.

There are cases where wider spacing is desired. HTML allows you to manually specify em-spaces, en-spaces, etc. (though the more common trick is the aforementioned use of repeated non-breaking spaces).

In the end, I generally am not bothered by what others are doing (two spaces or one) unless I have to edit it. Then the two spaces will drive me crazy.

When it comes to monospaced fonts, the convention amongst programmers is to use a single space after a full stop when commenting code (generally, you will find two spacers). It is what I am used to and the other looks weird to me (though it is arguably better, as you have no typesetting in the case of monospaced fonts).



and, even though it is deemed "correct" now, im not giving up my two spaces at the end of sentences...and the MLA style handbook agrees with me...

Heh. Anything written to MLA standards is typically destined to be typeset by hand by a professional typsetter… who will use a wide space. Funny.

In the end, common usage wins. Some of us just like to complain. As long as the writer can be understood it doesn't matter to much.

I abuse so many constructs, both grammatical and typographical, I really have no leg to stand on.

kailua
08-08-2009, 08:06 AM
Me, I use invective only when it's the appropriate place to do so (hammer hitting thumb, for example).

But what I find terribly insulting and offensive is the improper grammar online. If swearing in front of children is bad, surely using bad English is worse because it teaches them to communicate poorly and inefficiently.

The inability of adult English-speaking people to punctuate effectively, use capital letters, conjugate verbs, make proper subject-verb agreement, spell correctly - THESE are the real obscenities. This sort of slovenly, puerile, semi-literate crap makes me want to swear aloud.... %#$@#^! But not in front of the children...

You presume everyone here on UU is well educated (whatever that means). Although I cringe at some of the post I read, if I can understand it, I can tolerate it. Tolerance.

itsme
08-08-2009, 08:22 AM
I don't quite recall there being much truth to that story, about text-speak in exams, but I didn't pay much attention, so I could well be wrong.
Found an article on it:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2006-11-13-text-speak_x.htm


But Ebonics? Man, I don't know anything about the situation with those schools, but I don't know that my objections, if I had any, upon reading up on their stance, would necessarily be anywhere near as strong. Depends entirely on details I don't yet know.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9612/19/black.english/index.html

Well, it seems part of the controversy was in attempting to have Ebonics recognized as a separate language so the Oakland (California) school district could receive federal funding for their bilingual programs.

jazzuke
08-08-2009, 08:26 AM
We are getting off-track here...but worse, is the impact of text speak and automated spell/grammar checking.

Youth are not learning proper English usage: Since the computer handles the rules for you, you don;t need to learn usage. The advent of texting and dropping articles, punctuation and capitalization is also diminishing the clarity of good written expression.

Rick Turner
08-08-2009, 12:21 PM
I would venture to guess that many of the posters in this thread are not parents...hence the somewhat immature responses to the issue.

Time to grow up, kids!

There's a place for everything and every word. And there are places where thought should precede speech or typing.

Written like the old f..t I am...with four kids.

bbycrts
08-08-2009, 12:31 PM
my only beef is when 4 dots are used as an ellipsis instead of 3...;)
i guess there's no better way to end this non-cap prose/ramble than with a colon, a space and a closing parenthesis.
: )
p.

Do remember, though, that if you are ending a sentence with an ellipsis, you use four dots - an ellipsis plus a period.

SamWise
08-08-2009, 12:58 PM
It's phonics but the rules don't always apply. There are 24 letters but 44 sounds. This is why the english language is so hard to learn.

And combinations of letters make up the other sounds, in general, as Ian has illustrated here. Most importantly, there is a right way and a wrong way to pronounce everything. If you want to know the right way, check with the OED people. Zeebrah is wrong. I know it's common usage over there, but it's our language, and its wrong! It's nice for once to see someone from across the pond standing up for pronouncing things right.

In other news, the word herb has an "h" at the start of it. 'Erb is something else altogether!

I learned to type on a typewriter too, was taught to doublespace, and passed my Pitman exam. I was tested once by a recruiter for my IT skills, and was told I had secretarial level typing skills. Exams aside, I have always eschewed the double space after a period (it's a full stop, dudes!), because it just looked wrong to me.

ichadwick
08-09-2009, 02:55 AM
I suppose being a typography nerd brings no one joy but myself. Remind me to tell you the story of the letter Þ "thorn" and early English typesetting challenges sometime…
Atually a minor interest of mine as well. Was reading Bringhurst recently on typographic style, and have several books on type design and book design in my library.

I started working in newspapers when they still used hot type, so I developed an interest in how type worked in parallel with my interest in how language worked when I was in my late teens, early 20s. I have several good works on type and graphic design I used in my store for examples and ideas.

hoosierhiver
08-09-2009, 03:45 AM
btw, a recent reform of the German orthography included several changes that could be taken from this text such as: Philosophie is Filosofie now, Photographie is Fotografie... or Mayonnaise is Majonäse now... It hurts to read that^^

So can I look forward to an increase in Umlaughts in my near future? :nana:

Kanaka916
08-09-2009, 04:33 AM
We are getting off-track here...
Yes we are, can we get it back to the original topic? Thanks guys!

AgentORC
08-09-2009, 10:19 AM
I was homeschooled for 14 years in a Christian household.
I finally went to a public high school my freshman year.
:eek:
...suffice to say I learned a lot of cuss words I'll never use.
I've found UU relatively clean, actually.
Kind of refreshing coming home from high school where it's *@$% this and &*%$ that all the time and hanging around here.
Thanks, guys!

Melissa82
08-09-2009, 10:23 AM
Comment about the original topic.

If you require the F word to get a point across, maybe you should think harder about your response and think about a reasonable way to say it instead of offending everyone who is going to read the comment. I just think people who use words like this when they know kids and others who don't appreciate this language read it is very selfish and irresponsible. To me, it also counts as a loss of respect from my end. It's like littering beside a garbage can: Sure, you can do it but why?

Skrik
08-09-2009, 11:43 AM
Comment about the original topic.

If you require the F word to get a point across, maybe you should think harder about your response and think about a reasonable way to say it instead of offending everyone who is going to read the comment.

Indeed.

On the other hand, if your intention is to offend, by all means, use the F words (and S words, and C words, and B words).

But we're not here to offend each other, and that's really the bottom line.

itsme
08-09-2009, 12:14 PM
Comment about the original topic.

If you require the F word to get a point across, maybe you should think harder about your response and think about a reasonable way to say it instead of offending everyone who is going to read the comment. I just think people who use words like this when they know kids and others who don't appreciate this language read it is very selfish and irresponsible. To me, it also counts as a loss of respect from my end. It's like littering beside a garbage can: Sure, you can do it but why?
Well put! I couldn't agree more, Melissa. :)

Once I worked in a department with three women, and swearing was pretty common. Someone came up with the brilliant idea that we were going to clean it up and for every cuss word uttered, we'd have to put a quarter into a swear jar, with the goal that by the time it was full, we'd have cleaned up our act, and then we'd use the money to all go out to lunch together.

As the jar was getting pretty full, and the foulest mouth of us all was dropping in yet another quarter, I just started laughing. She went off on me about being miss goody two shoes who hadn't put in a single quarter yet. So I grabbed a quarter out of my purse, walked over to the jar, smiled and proudly let out the F word as I dropped the coin in.

I really enjoyed my almost free lunch. :p

UkuLeLesReggAe
08-09-2009, 02:03 PM
i never notice any swearing.. hha

Lori
08-09-2009, 02:34 PM
Indeed.

On the other hand, if your intention is to offend, by all means, use the F words (and S words, and C words, and B words).

But we're not here to offend each other, and that's really the bottom line.
Words can have great power, but that power can be defused by overuse. Look what has happened to the word "awesome". It really doesn't have the effect it used to, before it peppered the conversations of several generations of teens.

The "cuss" words are only really effective if used rarely. And only in extreme circumstances. Hopefully, the subjects of this forum won't need such expressions of anger and upset. Only use the words to inspire others to spring into action. Not just to vent. It is quite effective if people normally don't hear that kind of language from you, and then it really shocks them if you feel the need to use it. It truly communicates your feelings on the matter.

Or better yet, just pick up a uke, and chill out.

–Lori

vahn
08-09-2009, 02:40 PM
Or better yet, just pick up a uke, and chill out.

–Lori

QFT. Good advice. how can u be mad on an ukulele forum? seriously...

sukie
08-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Thank God (is that swearing?) I've been gone for a week and missed this. I got to page 6 and said "the h**l with it. I'm fine with not swearing -- I think I don't do it very much -- here. But, for golly sakes, quit with the grammar bashing. There must be a forum for that. Go do it somewhere else. Worry about what YOU do and not what others do.

Go ahead, bash me. I really don't care. I'm really getting tired of this "nazi-ism". I know the period technically goes inside the quote marks but I prefer it my way. So sue me...


I love to use the little periods. It's really quite the way I talk. And I mistype words a lot. Not on purpose but because I'm a sh*tty typist.

Well, I'm glad to be back.

3nails4holes
08-09-2009, 07:15 PM
i'm a new ukulele player & have already gotten a number of others interested as they've seen & played my ukes (not the tenor--are you crazy?!? that's mine!!!:D).

and this (u^2) is one of the first places i recommend as a great resource to learn more about the uke.

i would be most grateful to the uu universe if it wasn't mottled with words that would easily earn an "r" rating.

on another note, i've always been taught that if you squeeze a lemon, then lemon juice comes out. thus, when you get squeezed by life or a trying event (not that a random thread post really merits "event" status), what comes out of you is what was inside.

granted for some of us, it really is a truckload of junk. :rolleyes:

haolejohn
08-09-2009, 07:21 PM
i'm a new ukulele player & have already gotten a number of others interested as they've seen & played my ukes (not the tenor--are you crazy?!? that's mine!!!:D).

and this (u^2) is one of the first places i recommend as a great resource to learn more about the uke.

i would be most grateful to the uu universe if it wasn't mottled with words that would easily earn an "r" rating.

on another note, i've always been taught that if you squeeze a lemon, then lemon juice comes out. thus, when you get squeezed by life or a trying event (not that a random thread post really merits "event" status), what comes out of you is what was inside.

granted for some of us, it really is a truckload of junk. :rolleyes:

Ahh Da Jesus book quote in your signature. I have been waiting on Da Befo jesus Book to come out...Also Ilike the U^2. You ever listen to Shane and Shane? They have a t-shirt with S^2 on it.


On topic... Thanks Seeso. School starts back next week and i had my little PUP members checking out UU for resources and we do not need 10 year olds seeing bad examples.

shanifawni
08-09-2009, 08:50 PM
Thank God (is that swearing?) I've been gone for a week and missed this. I got to page 6 and said "the h**l with it. I'm fine with not swearing -- I think I don't do it very much -- here. But, for golly sakes, quit with the grammar bashing. There must be a forum for that. Go do it somewhere else. Worry about what YOU do and not what others do.


i agree about the grammar bashing, honestly, when people do it i feel uncomfortable. its not like any region of people have this ultra-correct use of grammar. every single location in the U.S. has different little variations on how people use their words and it really just makes things interesting. language is like anything else, always growing, changing, being played with and experimented on. its really no big deal.

of course its good to know how to use it correctly, and especially for any professional reasons and whatnot, but its okay to relax. don't waste your stress on grammar on a ukulele forum, waste it on something worthwhile.

p.s. weirdest subject matter to come up because of profanity usage...haa

FiPfft
08-09-2009, 09:57 PM
i agree about the grammar bashing, honestly, when people do it i feel uncomfortable. its not like any region of people have this ultra-correct use of grammar. every single location in the U.S. has different little variations on how people use their words and it really just makes things interesting. language is like anything else, always growing, changing, being played with and experimented on. its really no big deal.

of course its good to know how to use it correctly, and especially for any professional reasons and whatnot, but its okay to relax. don't waste your stress on grammar on a ukulele forum, waste it on something worthwhile.

p.s. weirdest subject matter to come up because of profanity usage...haa

A-bloody-men*.

Talking about standards and personal preferences of grammar/pronunciation (or typography) can be most interesting, but to claim superiority, or belittle users of alternatives (which, if it's a dialect thing, are equally "correct" anyway – stuff "definitive" grammars) is horrible and unnecessary.

On that note, I'd like to apologise if anybody took any of what I said earlier in a demeaning way; I was, for the most part, talking about my preferences in my own writing and trends in stylistic "rules" (spacing!), but if I said anything hurtful, I am sincerely sorry.

And now back on track:

* :eek: Uh-oh. :confused: Should I have said that? … Regional variation in what constitutes bad language. Now there's a topic…

Ahnko Honu
08-09-2009, 10:33 PM
If you really have to attack someone do it with total anonymity, and impunity, just use the reputation feature available on each post, but keep it out of the main forum. Pretend to show aloha in the forum but show your true colors with anonymous reputation comments. :mad: Na Moa Kukae :rolleyes:

buddhuu
08-09-2009, 10:46 PM
Galloping pedantry is as annoying, to me, as poor grammar.

In some cases, schools in the USA teach formal English (albeit your own variant :P ) more thoroughly than schools in the UK do. For many years, sentence construction and parts of speech had no place in the British classroom. It is not the case that everyone receives an equal education. Some schools do a poor job. That being the case, it seems a little harsh to jump on people for errors which, in the great scheme of things, are unlikely to bring about the end of the world.

That said, although errors, slang, informality, colloquiallism and individual style do not bother me unduly, I do find some of the deliberate, affected posting modes that seem to have evolved from the use of SMS text messaging and certain social network sites rather hard to take. The problem is that they are hard for me to read and decipher. Usually the poster could use standard language if they chose to, but they elect to use a contrivance that, for me, makes it hard to follow what they are saying.

My own use of language would, no doubt, p*** my old English teacher right off. I follow the rules that suit me, rather than the ones I know to be preferred. For example, I stubbornly use the "-ise" verb ending (which in my mind is the "British" way to do it) even though authorities such as Fowler insist that there is no convincing reason to resist the allegedly more correct "-ize".

And I start sentences and paragraphs with "and" and "but", because I choose to do so.

I frequently begin new paragraphs where there is no need to do so, and I end up with lots of small paragraph fragments that should really be united in a more appropriate whole.

I type two spaces after a period/full stop because when I started writing for publication in the 1980s, editors' guidelines would often prescribe double line spacing, wide margins and two spaces following the end of a sentence. I never broke the habit, and I lose no sleep over it.

I use ellipses all over the place... because I like them. I took the time to learn the rules and to use the language properly. If I now choose to introduce personal quirks that amuse or please me then no one can stop me.

Oh, and no matter what the rules say, I never type an additional period after an ellisis at the end of a sentence... .

PS. After reading this thread and tutting with disapproval at the way it has been hijacked, I now offer apologies to Seeso for my own contribution to the drift.

micromue
08-09-2009, 11:15 PM
Interesting debate (The swearing thing, not the grammar/typography discussion. That one is *%$%# boring).

I personally use swearing really often in spoken language (e.g. while driving my car, being at work, playing computer games). Since now I had no need to use it on internet forums or other forms of written communication and I don´t intend to change anything about it.

BUT: I really don´t get this thing about "bad influence". The internet is no place children should attend without parental control. Even on UU with its high standards, the moderators can´t monitor every post in realtime or e.g. the private messages. You want to protect your children from bad influence? Teach them to cope with it. There is no way the behaviour on the internet will adapt itself to childrens(parents needs. And there is definitely no way, parents will get rid of the responsibility showing their kids how to grow up.

Uncle-Taco
08-10-2009, 03:47 AM
What has always fascinated me as a language scholar (and even more as a mere social observer) is that people are so offended by mere words. It is the words, too, and not the sentiment. I'll prove it:

"Billy, go outside! You have poop on your shoe!"

No second grade teacher in the world would hear one syllable of criticism for that sentence.

If he or she said, "You have excrement on your shoe," it would be over the kid's head (although he'd learn that word right away).

If the teacher stated, "You have sh... on your shoe," then another wad would hit the fan.

WHY?

I'm not saying that people should use those words that are regarded as "course" because they mean the same thing. It is fascinating, though, that the words of Anglo-Saxon derivation that we use as "cuss words" were determined, by someone (some idiot--i'll go ahead and say it) to be offensive. Someone had to DECIDE that certain words had the power to curve your spine, infect your mind, and lose the war for the Allies.

Abracadabra.

ihavenotea
08-10-2009, 05:57 AM
i agree about the grammar bashing, honestly, when people do it i feel uncomfortable. […]

Sorry, everyone. I think some of us were just having fun bantering about grammar and typography. It seems that we inadvertently stepped on some toes.

I don't care how you write or how you pronounce "zebra".
I adore you all. *smiles*

Thanks again Seeso for the gentle push toward more salient use swear words. I think your original message summed things up nicely.

UkuEroll
08-10-2009, 06:15 AM
It is fascinating, though, that the words of Anglo-Saxon derivation that we use as "cuss words" were determined, by someone (some idiot--i'll go ahead and say it) to be offensive. Someone had to DECIDE that certain words had the power to curve your spine, infect your mind, and lose the war for the Allies.

.

I couldn'tn agree more (Who did DECIDE),the Romans took up some of the cuss words, they are just words, they can't kill you! But if they do offend some people it is very easy not to use them, it's just common sense.
And yes my Grammer is terrible, but I've never had any problems being understood here.

NukeDOC
08-10-2009, 06:34 AM
wowzorz! out of over 100 posts only about a third of um are on topic..... a tangent this thread went on sezz yoda.

whiskey, tango, foxtrot... over.

this thread is @%@#$^ funny. hahaha..... lolzorz

Skrik
08-10-2009, 06:42 AM
(Who did DECIDE),

'Twas the Normans, who increased the status of Norman French, and diminished the status of the Anglo Saxon that was already native to the country. All of our swear words are from Anglo Saxon, and arguably, they are the least euphemistic words of any we have.

Nearly a thousand years of history, and it's still causing trouble today. It's not just profanity that has been thus affected. What's for dinner?

Good: Pork/ beef.
Bad: Pig/ cow.

The first term is from the Norman French, the second from Anglo Saxon.

shanifawni
08-10-2009, 06:46 AM
we should all make zebra a cuss word, just for good measure. LOL

i mean how hard is it to say black-and-white-striped-african-horse instead? seriously...

i wasn't like suuper uncomfortable (just, like, annoyed uncomfortable), i get more uncomfortable in real life when a few people get together and they're like "OMG i CANT believe some people say this thing this one way way its so incorrect, blah blah blah" but i thought i'd bring up that point i made, for people to think about.

p.s. i also adore you all. don't think i'm sour :(

LonnaB
08-10-2009, 06:55 AM
Alright, I'm going to side step the grammar conversation and take this in a different direction.

Seeso- I appreciate your OP and I don't think I've let too many swear words drop around here. (I save those for UkeHunt- wait, that might be a bad word. :))

As a parent, I would like to add that I take it as my responsibility to teach my children that they are not allowed to use swear words. They hear them on TV, in music and right from their mother's mouth at times. If I were to allow my kids to have access to online message boards, the same rules would apply. "What you hear/read from other people stays where you heard it and doesn't come out of your mouth in front of your grandmother."

As nice as it is to have a clean forum for the kiddos to feel welcome, adults do need places where they feel like they aren't always having to restrain from using the language they would like to. I'm not saying that vulgarity should be tolerated, just that if someone wanted to say that someone else's new video kicks a** it may be entirely justified. When I think about the music I like to listen to, I shudder to think that an artist would change a lyric just to make it more appropriate for the underage audience. (wait, that sounds like the Disney Channel) Heck, James Taylor drops the F bomb.

I also feel like we are doing too much these days to shelter children from the real world. Kids want to know what adults are doing and saying, and for good reason. They don't always see themselves as kids so much as the grown people they are waiting to be. The more we keep them from our lives and what we are doing as grown ups, the harder their transition will be into their own adult lives. Kids want to be a meaningful part of their surroundings and too much censoring of the real world leaves them feeling like they are locked away from reality. Just my thoughts here, from my somewhat radical unschooling experience.

Again, this is a good sentiment and a kind thought in general for the forum. I would like to see parents taking on a greater responsibility for knowing what their children are looking at on the internet.

sukie
08-10-2009, 07:39 AM
we should all make zebra a cuss word, just for good measure. LOL

i mean how hard is it to say black-and-white-striped-african-horse instead? seriously...



Post of the day! Yea, Shani.:D

Ahnko Honu
08-10-2009, 10:05 AM
In a fishing forum I belong to the filter would not allow anyone to say "bass" because it would pick up the last 3 letters which was lame default setting. That has been fixed but what's funny now is that the filter is programed to replace every cuss word with the word SNUFFALUPAGUS so it let's those who need to vent do so without offending the unsuspecting. :rofl::rotfl::shaka:

ukeyermind
08-10-2009, 10:53 AM
You don't call a woman who spells her name Debra as "Dee-bra" do you? It's Zeh-bruski Point (the movie) not Zee-bruski. So why would anyone say "zee-bra" when the rules are clear?




I mostly wanted to give it up to ichadwick for referencing the obscure Zabriskie Point movie, but now I feel like I have to say that I pronounce it Zah-brisk-ee because it is spelled with an "a" and not an "e., and an "i", not a "u". At least, that's how my copy of the soundtrack has it.

Still, wicked cool reference.

Ukulele JJ
08-10-2009, 11:17 AM
what's funny now is that the filter is programed to replace every cuss word with the word SNUFFALUPAGUS

Heh, heh...

The forums over on Woot.com have all sorts of amusing substitution filters (http://www.bagsofcrap.com/glossary/task,showcat/catid,10/) on 'em.

JJ

Melissa82
08-10-2009, 11:25 AM
Heh, heh...

The forums over on Woot.com have all sorts of amusing substitution filters (http://www.bagsofcrap.com/glossary/task,showcat/catid,10/) on 'em.

JJHahahaha too funny.

UkeNukem
08-10-2009, 11:36 AM
Ok, I'll try it.

Snaflupaglious, (opps)
Snaglapaglumas (no)
Plugesnaflufass (arrrg!)

OH SNUFFALUPAGUS!!!!!

I think I prefer ^%$#&!

toubisard
08-10-2009, 11:42 AM
I can imagine that the directive, don't use any words that you wouldn't use in front of your mother would be an appropriate way to judge what words are offensive.

My mum who taught English Language for 35 years told me the funniest joke I ever heard. I can't tell it to any one. It does not contain sex or violence it is not racially offensive and only contains the one very effective Anglo-Saxon expletive but hell it is really really funny......suspense is ever thing.

KC8AFW
08-10-2009, 04:31 PM
Heh, heh...

The forums over on Woot.com have all sorts of amusing substitution filters (http://www.bagsofcrap.com/glossary/task,showcat/catid,10/) on 'em.

JJ

I'm wearing poodle diapers and I woke up next to a dead clown :biglaugh:

ihavenotea
08-10-2009, 06:58 PM
we should all make zebra a cuss word, just for good measure. LOL

i mean how hard is it to say black-and-white-striped-african-horse instead? seriously...


Oh, shanifawni, you are brilliant.

I will have to add that to my repertoire of bizarre pseudo-cuss words.

My favorite of all times is from Douglas Adams: "A load of dingo's kidneys".

NukeDOC
08-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Oh, shanifawni, you are brilliant.

I will have to add that to my repertoire of bizarre pseudo-cuss words.

My favorite of all times is from Douglas Adams: "A load of dingo's kidneys".

my favorite cuss word of all time, the mother of all cuss words, brought to life by the makers of Southpark...

BARBARA STREISAND!!!!!

Ahnko Honu
08-10-2009, 08:14 PM
Ok, I'll try it.

Snaflupaglious, (opps)
Snaglapaglumas (no)
Plugesnaflufass (arrrg!)

OH SNUFFALUPAGUS!!!!!

I think I prefer ^%$#&!

I guess you didn't get it, it's programed into the forum filter to automatically replace cuss words when posted. :rolleyes:

buddhuu
08-10-2009, 10:38 PM
[...] don't think i'm sour :(

Sour? No way. We've seen your videos. :love:

Ukulele JJ
08-11-2009, 01:53 AM
my favorite cuss word of all time, the mother of all cuss words, brought to life by the makers of Southpark...

BARBARA STREISAND!!!!!

I'm partial to "sci-fi cusswords", like:

Frak!

Frell!

...and of course, Shazbot!


JJ

UkuLeLesReggAe
08-11-2009, 02:16 AM
funny how a thread like this turns 12 pages long

sukie
08-11-2009, 02:47 AM
funny how a thread like this turns 12 pages long

Got a ways to go before it's on page 1327.

But, the topic does seem to have struck a chord with folks.

ihavenotea
08-11-2009, 07:02 AM
I'm partial to "sci-fi cusswords", like:

Frak!

Frell!

...and of course, Shazbot!


JJ

I find I use Frak quite a bit. But never around my children.

Thats kind of funny.

Speaking of four letter words that start with F and end with K, in the unix world, when you system crashes and the filesystem is messed up there is a utility to fix it. It takes forever to run and is an unpleasant chore. Its full name is "File System Check", but the program itself is simply 'fsck'.

In the unix world it is a very common swear word. (See, sukie, we can get to page 1327. We would have been there already, but we were scolded for talking about grammar. *laughs*)

UKISOCIETY
08-11-2009, 07:06 AM
I'm partial to "sci-fi cusswords", like:

Frak!

Frell!

...and of course, Shazbot!


JJ


I grok you.

Shazbot is a perfectly cromulent word.:rock:

Thumper
08-11-2009, 07:08 AM
I grok you.

Shazbot is a perfectly cromulent word.:rock:

Would you say your vocabulary has a tendency to accribitz as a result of watching TV?

buddhuu
08-11-2009, 07:52 AM
I'm partial to "sci-fi cusswords", like:

Frak!

Frell!

...and of course, Shazbot!


JJ

Belgium.

(Sorry :o )

Ahnko Honu
08-11-2009, 09:57 AM
I grok you.

Shazbot is a perfectly cromulent word.:rock:

I korg you

Cromulent is a perfectly shazbot word. :shaka:

marvtobi
08-11-2009, 03:28 PM
I just saw the last episode of that frakin show and am sad now its over.

ichadwick
08-12-2009, 12:44 AM
I will have to add that to my repertoire of bizarre pseudo-cuss words.

My favorite of all times is from Douglas Adams: "A load of dingo's kidneys".
There's some good stuff in the Firesign Theatre - listen to the faux Shakespeare piece they did. It's pretty rapid fire, but it's worth the effort.

ichadwick
08-12-2009, 12:50 AM
Zah-brisk-ee because it is spelled with an "a" and not an "e., and an "i", not a "u".
Is it? Sheesh? I had to look for my copy of the soundtrack among my mouldy vinyl, but all I found was an old cassette tape copy with the title scrawled in barely legible pen. Not even the tracks listed - but the title is obviously a misspelling from a couple of decades back that I've carried with me ever since. It's on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabriskie_Point_(film))(I should have checked first). Thanks for the correction.

But it's still ZEH-BRA. :cool:

HaileISela
08-12-2009, 02:09 AM
wowzorz! out of over 100 posts only about a third of um are on topic..... a tangent this thread went on sezz yoda.

whiskey, tango, foxtrot... over.

this thread is @%@#$^ funny. hahaha..... lolzorz

yessssss .

HaileISela
08-12-2009, 02:18 AM
Still, wicked cool reference.

reminds me of my English teacher who once told us a story about his first trip to the states. He went to a concert of some sort of Christian music and one of the guys in the audience was like: "wow, that's wicked cool!"

let's say my teacher couldn't understand why that type of music was anything like wicked^^