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buddhuu
09-17-2009, 04:22 AM
The rules here are commendably few and simple. That works for me.

That said, as we already have "No racism", could we explicitly add "No homophobia"?

There are still a few (very few) people here who entertain the notion that somehow there is something odd or funny about the fact that some of our UU siblings prefer to keep their romantic interests same-gender.

Until the last few bigots grow the hell up, could we please just add that little spec and make it clear that we as a community don't share the prejudice?

Love is love, dammit.

Thanks.

Brad Bordessa
09-17-2009, 04:51 AM
Couldn't agree more.


Love is love, dammit.

I want that as a bumper sticker.

mrUKETOBER
09-17-2009, 05:02 AM
how about no discrimination of any kind ? that could knock out that and a few others

ukerazy
09-17-2009, 05:06 AM
Love is love, I think that is a good thing you are saying Rick... You're awesome!

Fred Miu
09-17-2009, 05:28 AM
well if you look at the rules, the first one is a given. the 3rd one down is already listed here (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14).

UkuleleUnderground is love, thus it should be a loving site anyway, ya?!

cornfedgroove
09-17-2009, 05:37 AM
hmm, would have kinda thought that was a "given"...apparently it is not. Time for a new rule.

"there will be no prejudice douchebag comments of any kind on this forum"

it's an ukulele forum for crying out loud. Good call

pithaya9
09-17-2009, 05:39 AM
Totally agree with you buddhuu.

Fred Miu
09-17-2009, 05:44 AM
hmm, would have kinda thought that was a "given"...apparently it is not. Time for a new rule.

"there will be no prejudice douchebag comments of any kind on this forum"

it's an ukulele forum for crying out loud. Good call


you are right. but the douchebag comments also fall under "dont be a jerk" but it should be "jerk/douchebag" haha

wfwhitson
09-17-2009, 05:46 AM
Very well said, and I total agree.

UkeNinja
09-17-2009, 05:50 AM
That said, as we already have "No racism", could we explicitly add "No homophobia"?
Yes please.

Any specific posts you were offended by, in that case send a complaint as well. But you may be on to a US-Europe kind of manure pit of the "it's a cultural thing so don't impress your values onto us"-kind. I hope not.

buddhuu
09-17-2009, 05:53 AM
well if you look at the rules, the first one is a given. the 3rd one down is already listed here (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14).[...]

Yup, Fred. I acknowledged the presence of that third one. I'm delighted it's there. :)

Why would we not add the one I asked for? A couple of recent posts have, IMHO, shown a need. The juvenile posts in question (which may not have been meant to cause offense) were ably addressed by a moderator.

We could save mods the trouble of that vigilance by putting it in the rules.

If we really do welcome the beats of all different drums, then why should we not add it?

Thanks for your comments. I'm really not trying to be a pain in the arse here.


[...] UkuleleUnderground is love, thus it should be a loving site anyway, ya?

I couldn't agree more, mate. There's nowhere I'd rather be. :shaka:

Fred Miu
09-17-2009, 06:00 AM
Yup, Fred. I acknowledged the presence of that third one. I'm delighted it's there. :)

Why would we not add the one I asked for? A couple of recent posts have, IMHO, shown a need. The juvenile posts in question (which may not have been meant to cause offense) were ably addressed by a moderator.

We could save mods the trouble of that vigilance by putting it in the rules.

If we really do welcome the beats of all different drums, then why should we not add it?

Thanks for your comments. I'm really not trying to be a pain in the arse here.



I couldn't agree more, mate. There's nowhere I'd rather be. :shaka:


since we have had trouble in the past, it does make sense to entail new comers to not make hurtful gender jokes.

that and politics, never again will we let those two topics appear and let get dirty ever again, ever

russ_buss
09-17-2009, 06:06 AM
i'd like to think "no racism" and "no homophobia" are common sense enough for most people. the few people that step over those lines aren't reading any list of rules anyway.

the moderators seem to do a pretty good job with keeping things nice around here.

Fred Miu
09-17-2009, 06:12 AM
thanks for the feedback Russ :shaka:

josuegroundhog
09-17-2009, 06:44 AM
Great idea. I totally agree.

Can't wait to do my I'm Gay For Ukulele Contest.


Love,

Josh

yh

pithaya9
09-17-2009, 06:59 AM
Thank you to Fred and all the other moderators for keeping UU the best forum on the web.:cheers:

HaileISela
09-17-2009, 07:14 AM
It is a shame something as homophobia exists. I wonder when it'll be nothing special anymore if a couple (of which gender it might be) would be allowed to marry as it wants and to adopt children.

One love, one heart, one people!

Fred Miu
09-17-2009, 07:32 AM
please, the other mods get more praise. i overview threads and by the time something happens, a mod gets it before i do.

makes me feel useless...

Doctroid
09-17-2009, 08:27 AM
i'd like to think "no racism" and "no homophobia" are common sense enough for most people. the few people that step over those lines aren't reading any list of rules anyway.

True, but look at the last sentence of the rules:


Moderators have the right to lock accounts or ban members for violation of the rules.

As it stands, moderators arguably can't take these actions against someone posting homophobic remarks. The other rules might cover the situation... might not. Putting the suggested tweak in place would establish the mods' right to lock or ban in these cases, if necessary.

I support the suggestion.

ukantor
09-17-2009, 08:38 AM
I too support the suggestion. It should not be necessary, but unfortunately I believe it is.

Ukantor.

russ_buss
09-17-2009, 08:43 AM
True, but look at the last sentence of the rules:



As it stands, moderators arguably can't take these actions against someone posting homophobic remarks. The other rules might cover the situation... might not. Putting the suggested tweak in place would establish the mods' right to lock or ban in these cases, if necessary.

I support the suggestion.

sure i see your point. nothing wrong with being specific right? i'm just saying the golden rule seems to cover a lot of things. if we're being nit-picky, the list could go on for a long time. no racism, no homophobia, no ageism, no sexism, no religious intolerance, no hating on peoples' mammas, etc.

just playing devil's advocate here. not trying to promote any hate. i just think it's plain and simple. "don't be a jerk" is a great rule of thumb.

sukie
09-17-2009, 09:13 AM
sure i see your point. nothing wrong with being specific right? i'm just saying the golden rule seems to cover a lot of things. if we're being nit-picky, the list could go on for a long time. no racism, no homophobia, no ageism, no sexism, no religious intolerance, no hating on peoples' mammas, etc.

just playing devil's advocate here. not trying to promote any hate. i just think it's plain and simple. "don't be a jerk" is a great rule of thumb.

Russell_Bussell: +1. I agree with you completely.

buddhuu
09-17-2009, 09:21 AM
Thanks to everyone - those who support the proposal and those who have contributed perspective on how the current rules are intended to try to do a general-purpose catch of jerky behaviour.

sure i see your point. nothing wrong with being specific right? i'm just saying the golden rule seems to cover a lot of things. if we're being nit-picky, the list could go on for a long time. no racism, no homophobia, no ageism, no sexism, no religious intolerance, no hating on peoples' mammas, etc.

just playing devil's advocate here. not trying to promote any hate. i just think it's plain and simple. "don't be a jerk" is a great rule of thumb.
Devil's advocate is fine. You raise fair points.

In reply, I'd suggest we consider adding specifics as they become relevant. After all, we do have the specific "no racism" clause, so there is a precedent for spelling some of the stuff out. So long as there is no hint of a problem, there is probably no need for a rule. I'd suggest that is the case with the ageism and sexism things. As far as the homophobia is concerned, the situation is very similar, but with just a couple of very minor signs from some members that they have a personal outlook that sees gay people as an enjoyable target for mockery.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of "ribbing" between friends. That kind of mock two-way abuse is part of friendship. Kind of a mark of trust. However, some people, as a matter of tedious daily routine, have to take a lot of sh... nonsense that is not intended in that friendly, trusting context.

It's really not a big deal at all at the moment. Not an emergency or a drama, just something that I noticed enough to prompt me to make the suggestion.

I'm grateful that anyone has taken the suggestion seriously enough to discuss it.


One love, one heart, one people!
Good man. That's what I'm talking about. :shaka:

I'm not going to drone on any more. The suggestion is there for consideration and adoption or rejection as appropriate. Whichever way the mods decide is fine by me. Just asking that it gets some thought.

Thanks. :)

ukerazy
09-17-2009, 09:27 AM
I agree Buddhu, it was obviously necessary for the no racisim rule to be brought forward and if something regarding homophobia has come up maybe it would be a good time for a rule to come in and say we don't stand for this kind of predjudice. If something then came up regarding say, sexism then that rule could be added accordingly.

Kanaka916
09-17-2009, 10:51 AM
Whichever way the mods decide is fine by me. Just asking that it gets some thought.
Unfortunately, the mods really don't have the final decision. We try to ensure the basic guidelines are followed. The final authority rests with admin should they deem it necessary to impose a rule. For now, I think any posts in question should be assessed on a case by case basis. Just my $.02 . . .

haolejohn
09-17-2009, 12:22 PM
Russbuss stole my thunder. The don't be a jerk rule covers this topic. As a teacher I always have my students come up with a set of rules and the list can get very long. I then give a quiz over the rules. No one ever remembers all of them so I whip out the golden rule- Treat others the way you want to be treated. My rule list is quickly replaced with one rule.
If the rules start becoming specific then our forum becomes legalistic and where is the line drawn? Russ already mentioned other areas and I am personally offended by foul language but I tolerate it b/c we are adults. I trust our mods to step in if need be.

RevWill
09-17-2009, 12:32 PM
I do agree that homophobia should fall under the "don't be a jerk" rule, but sometimes it is important to remind folks what kind of jerks we shouldn't be.

And let me just say this: homophobia is abominable, and blaming it on God even more so.

specialmike
09-17-2009, 12:39 PM
The fact that a person loves one particular person is what is important; the life lesson, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, is that you not be promiscuous, and true to one person.


A rule to live by.

itsme
09-17-2009, 06:57 PM
I haven't actually noticed anything here disparaging against gays.

But what's your criteria? Would saying "That's so gay" be homophobic? Because that's a phrase that's crept into the vernacular and I think a lot of people use it without being intentionally homophobic.

Fred Miu
09-17-2009, 07:30 PM
I haven't actually noticed anything here disparaging against gays.

But what's your criteria? Would saying "That's so gay" be homophobic? Because that's a phrase that's crept into the vernacular and I think a lot of people use it without being intentionally homophobic.

good point.

you can also you "gay" in a happy sense, since it literally means "happy".

but to really avoid any arguments, i would just use a different word, such as "jubilee" or "bliss" :)

but all in all......LETS STICK TO THE :rulez:

Mahalo

uke5417
09-17-2009, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by Loretta Devine
The fact that a person loves one particular person is what is important; the life lesson, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, is that you not be promiscuous, and true to one person.


A rule to live by.

Odd comments, given the nature of the thread. Since when was this a monogamy-only group?

And the term "douche bag" from an earlier post in this thread isn't exactly nonjudgmental, either.

It's so easy to pass one's values off as the norm. Remember, there's a whole world of differentness out there. Let's try and be accepting on as many levels as we can.

buddhuu
09-17-2009, 10:09 PM
[...]
It's so easy to pass one's values off as the norm. Remember, there's a whole world of differentness out there. Let's try and be accepting on as many levels as we can.

This is very true.

The only differentness I can't accept, personally, is ignorant, archaic bigotry. IMHO there is neither excuse, nor rational reason for racism or homophobia. All "justifications" I've ever heard are invalid.

Try as I might to keep an open mind, I can't help viewing with suspicion any refusal on the part of anyone to unequivocably condemn both those brands of prejudice.

I'm neither gay nor a member of a minority ethnic group, so people often find it odd that this should be the one political/social/ethical area about which I get most emotionally engaged. It's a long story, but suffice to say that I find it a difficult topic to remain objective about.

If anything I have said in this thread has been inappropriate I invite the moderators to edit or delete as they deem fit. It is not my intention to cause irritation or controversy.

UkuEroll
09-17-2009, 10:25 PM
you tell em Rick, what's with the extra U?

ukulele2544
09-17-2009, 10:27 PM
:agree: I Agree!!!:agree:

casetone2514
09-17-2009, 10:32 PM
For what it's worth, I think the additional rule should be adopted.

Whist I agree that the Rule' "Don't be a jerk" shopuld be a cover-all, it relies on everyone having the same definition of "jerk". The 10 commandments could be replaced with one saying, "be nice" but it is too open to interpretation.

Some people are anti-gay in a casual, matter-of-fact, and ingrained way and would not recognise that making a disparaging comment about homosexuality could be described as jerkish behaviour.

This is a ukulele forum and so the issue of sexuality should not need to arise, but as it has, let's ensure that people are not persecuted, humiliated or criticised for it.

buddhuu
09-17-2009, 10:40 PM
you tell em Rick, what's with the extra U?

See PM, Leroy. LOL :D

Thumper
09-18-2009, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Loretta Devine
The fact that a person loves one particular person is what is important; the life lesson, whether you are homosexual or heterosexual, is that you not be promiscuous, and true to one person.



Odd comments, given the nature of the thread. Since when was this a monogamy-only group?

And the term "douche bag" from an earlier post in this thread isn't exactly nonjudgmental, either.

It's so easy to pass one's values off as the norm. Remember, there's a whole world of differentness out there. Let's try and be accepting on as many levels as we can.

Very good point. The douchebag tangent this thread took used the assumption that we all consider a certain type of person to be a douchebag. Assumptions are dangerous - and often erroneous - things to make, particularly when they are negatively slanted. A thread promoting love and acceptance is at odds with condemning a group of people who look a certain way, isn't it?

But a bigger problem with micro-regulating the forum is that you're starting to get into beliefs, not just behavior. Hateful homophobia expressed publicly is indeed offensive. But isn't it a person's right to feel homophobic? Or agrophobic? Whether you like it or not, you have to accept the fact that some people are violently offended by the notion of homosexuality, which goes against their deeply held beliefs. Similarly, some people are violently offended by non-monogamous sex. Or by drug use. Or by certain political parties. I submit they have a right to those beliefs. It's how they choose to express those beliefs here that we're really talking about. Bottom line: we're not all going to believe the same things, and it's wrong and unrealistic to expect us to.

But regardless of what we believe, we can all agree on how we behave. And the "don't be a jerk" rule seems to cover it. You know there are gay people on this forum. So, following the "don't be a jerk" concept, you know not to say anti-gay things here. You know there are Christians here. And Hawaiians. And women. And old people. And young people. And left-handed people. And so on. Bearing that in mind, it's not hard to determine what would or would not be offensive, if you give your posts a little thought.

But avoid assumptions. Assuming that we all hate muscular orange-skinned people is one such assumption. But assuming that we all share the same attitude towards orange muscular people with moussed hair, monogamy, gender preference, or mimes is not realistic.

I offer you a four-step plan:
1) Hold true to your own beliefs.
2) Be open to changing those beliefs.
3) Respect the beliefs of others.
4) Be nice.

It ain't so hard.

ukerazy
09-18-2009, 01:59 AM
But isn't it a person's right to feel homophobic?

Your post made me feel so uncomfortable, But then I knew there would be some people that couldn't refrain from having their say...

Oh and agrophobia and homophobia are two different things... homophobia is plain and simply ignorance!

micromue
09-18-2009, 02:15 AM
I agree that the jerk-rule completely covers homophopic behaviour as much as it covers any other act of discrimination. :agree: I also learned around here, that the accurate moderation of this forum is accompanied by a highly responsible community, that rewards common sense and also strikes quickly if someone behaves in an unacceptable manner. So I donīt really see the need for a catalogue of jerkiness. On the other hand: It doesnīt hurt.

But please keep in mind, that a forum that answers jerky behaviour with instant discussion about policies, new formal rules and the complete arsenal of the "empire strikes back", is pretty rewarding to trolls.:(

buddhuu
09-18-2009, 02:26 AM
[...] Hateful homophobia expressed publicly is indeed offensive. But isn't it a person's right to feel homophobic? Or agrophobic? [...]

With respect, I find the concept of having the right to having a disorder, social or medical, a difficult one to grasp. Recognising a right to feel homophobic is like recognising a right to feel racist. Why would anyone want to feel either? And if it is an involuntary, conditioned attitude of which they are ashamed and which they wish they could change, then I would support their quest for change rather than support their right to suffer from the unwanted prejudice.


[...]Whether you like it or not, you have to accept the fact that some people are violently offended by the notion of homosexuality, which goes against their deeply held beliefs. [...]
I accept it as a fact QED, but I do not accept it as a situation, nor as an excuse.

I do not want to offend anyone, or get the thread locked down, so I have to decline to discuss the issue of belief beyond saying that I would hope that even the most fervent follower of a belief system that demonises some people's kind of love would be able to accept that there are places where the majority would like them to hold their tongues on the subject.


[...]It's how they choose to express those beliefs here that we're really talking about.
And that's all the rule would address.

The proscription I seek is against expressed homophobia on the board. As far as I am aware, no one is proposing any kind of telepathic surveillance of people's private attitudes, no matter how hateful they may be.

I guess my own ethical framework tells me that it is wrong to discriminate against someone because of what they are (white, black, gay, straight, tall, short). On the other hand, it is valid to question attitudes, behaviours, political affiliations, beliefs - things which are learned or adopted, because they are constructs, not part of our intrinsic natures.

buddhuu
09-18-2009, 02:28 AM
[...]But please keep in mind, that a forum that answers jerky behaviour with instant discussion about policies, new formal rules and the complete arsenal of the "empire strikes back", is pretty rewarding to trolls.:(

Yup. Worth remembering.

wickedwahine11
09-18-2009, 03:02 AM
Buddhuu, I want to thank you for trying to prevent homophobic comments on this forum. A while back, in the "no homo" thread, I got into a bit of a verbal entanglement on that topic, as a result, I wasn't going to say anything on this thread, keeping my mouth shut. However, seeing the volume of comments in response to your topic has led me to reconsider my silence.

I've been a member of this forum for a little while now, and I have really enjoyed finding a community of like-minded folks who share the same love for the ukulele as I do.

I haven't been completely honest on this board though. Whenver I have spoken of my "better half," "my spouse," etc., I have gone to great pains to remain gender neutral in my discussion. As most of you know, my online handle has the word wahine in it, and yes, 99.9% of you correctly interpreted that to mean that I am a woman. You would be correct. Where I have not been as forthcoming is in the fact that my spouse is a woman as well. Whew. Deep breath.

Please note: when I said I am a Navy wife, that is true. My wife is an LAPD lieutenant, but she also is currently serving in the Naval Reserve and she did spend a year in Iraq. And due the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy, I could never sign my name to anything I sent to her for that year, and when we were legally married in California last year we had to get a non public marriage certificate so the Dept. of Defense would not find out.

I want to note that I usually don't discuss matters like this in online forums that I frequent, whether they be ukulele related, or any other hobby or interest related. This is for a couple of reasons:

1) Because I truly don't feel that it matters. If gay people argue that we are like everyone else in every other way, then why should it matter if I live with a man or woman as long as I love ukuleles like you do? It is far more divisive and important to wage battle Kamaka versus KoAloha. ;)

2) The other main reason is because I have been afraid of being the subject of homophobia, and hateful comments. I already have heard the stories of people being deluged with negative reputation comments, and since private messages go to my email, I didn't want to get a bunch of emails telling me that I'm evil and I am going to hell. Trust me, I get enough of those from my uncle.

The main reason that I'm saying something now, is that I want to remind the people who make homophobic, or even quasi-homophobic statements (like the whole "no homo" thing) that even though you may think you don't know any gay people you do.

I'm a lawyer (though no longer practicing) and if anyone believes in the First Amendment I do. I'm not trying to prevent anyone from saying anything that they want. But I do want people to stop and think about it before you type it. You have every right to be homophobic if you want to be, or anti-Semitic, or racist. But I dare say you wouldn't say anything against a racial or religious minority on this board -- you would be aware of the consequences of your actions.

So off my soapbox, I just want to thank you again Buddhuu for your attempts to make the forum a more pleasant place for your lavender brothers and sisters. I'm sure I'm not the only one here, I just don't feel like being a closeted one anymore.

Deep breath...no going back now...click submit reply.

Thumper
09-18-2009, 03:03 AM
Your post made me feel so uncomfortable, But then I knew there would be some people that couldn't refrain from having their say...

Oh and agrophobia and homophobia are two different things... homophobia is plain and simply ignorance!


What you're expressing here is a belief about homophobia so deep that you view it to be an absolute truth. For what it's worth, I share that belief - I'm in favor of gay marriage, and think homophobia is a real drag.

But I also think it's within somebody's rights to be homophobic. Because I've learned that regardless how nonsensical it may seem to me, to somebody else it is a belief that they hold as deeply as you hold yours. A belief that to them seems to be an absolute truth. Just like you feel. And those people who have those beliefs are not all dumb, evil people. They are just people whose values differ from yours, as a result of conditioning, upbringing, and - above all - personal choice.

People believe different things. And they believe those things with deep passion, whether it's about God, guns, sex, healthcare, or instant replays in professional sports.

You're not going to get everybody to agree with what you believe. But you can attempt to get along with people who do not share your beliefs. And I encourage you to include people in your life who do not share your beliefs, so that they can learn from you, and - believe it or not -so you can learn from them.

Doctroid
09-18-2009, 03:03 AM
Itsme, there are lots of phrases which have at one time or another entered the vernacular, which people have used without intending to be racist -- but which are racist in their origin and intent. Or sexist. Or disparaging one ethnic group or another, or a religion. Fortunately most of them are not often used any more, because people recognize the insensitivity and offensiveness of their use. But the homophobic ones are still regarded by many as harmless. Why?

Of course someone who says something racist without racist intent needs, not to be banned from the forums, but to be informed that their choice of words isn't acceptable. Likewise with homophobic phrases.

buddhuu
09-18-2009, 03:57 AM
@ wickedwahine11: Enormous respect to you for having the courage to be true to yourself. I hope we all prove worthy of the trust you put in us when you share the details of your life.

@ All: This wasn't supposed to be some kind of crusade or anything like that. I'm a bit taken aback that it has all grown bigger than I expected. I thought the idea was a simple, almost obvious, one.

People's reactions have been educational. I live and learn.

Thanks, and I really am done now. (Deja vu?)

sukie
09-18-2009, 04:24 AM
Wicked Wahine -- hats off to you. That was very eloquent and gutsy.

Besides, people's sexual preferences can't possible matter in an ukulele forum.

Blrfl
09-18-2009, 04:33 AM
This is probably well more than two cents' worth, but I wrote it all, so I guess I should post it:


With respect, I find the concept of having the right to having a disorder, social or medical, a difficult one to grasp. Recognising a right to feel homophobic is like recognising a right to feel racist. Why would anyone want to feel either?

That isn't really the point. The fact is that people in this world do feel that way, some voluntarily, and making a rule isn't going to put a stop to it. People eat haggis, too, some voluntarily, and as distasteful as I find the stuff, I still don't deny their right to enjoy it. John Stuart Mill, who lived on your side of the pond, once said that liberty resides in the rights of those whose views you find most odious. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who lived on my side of the pond clarified Mill when he said that the right to swing his fist ends where the other man's nose begins.


The proscription I seek is against...

As others have pointed out, all this is going to result in is a proliferation of rules, and that isn't going to end well. If you add an explicit rule to the list anytime someone gets offended, you end up with a long list of rules that will get broken because nobody has actually taken the time to read and digest them, other than the few who want to nit-pick and bicker over them. Lots of American states have some utterly screwy laws (http://www.loonylaws.com) on the books, and I have to assume that there's a singular incident behind each one.

I've been around what would come to be called the Internet since the mid-1980s, used bulletin board systems before that and have had many opportunities to observe the patterns that happen with groups like this one. They tend to begin with a good set of dedicated die-hards, almost all of whom behave like grown-ups in the interest of furthering their hobby/sport/whatever. As they grow, they tend to gather people who are genuinely interested but not quite as dedicated as the initial group. Growth of these groups tends to be exponential as time passes. At some point someone will start the first flame war, which will be followed by a second, sparked by discussion about the first one. The third flame war will be about having rules that would have kept the first two from happening. You get the picture.

Let me be clear that I'm not trying to imply that UU is on that path or headed that way; they're just my observations from the last quarter century. I think this is a good group which attracts laid-back people by the nature of the instrument its members play. That's why I joined, and is why I've tried to be an active participant in my short time here. What I am trying to get at is that problems like these can be solved by applying some common sense.

I'm one of the six moderators of ST-Owners.com (http://www.st-owners.com), a five-year-old site dedicated to a couple of motorcycles that fit into a certain niche. We have 12,000 members (it would be more, but we prune out about 2,000 worth of dead wood every quarter), 4,300 with five or more posts, 5,700 who've logged in at least once in the last quarter and a pretty high posting volume. (By contrast, UU has 12,000 members, 2,035 of whom have posted five or more times.)

We've learned that the key to running a large site is a simple, clear set of rules (http://www.st-owners.com/forums/announcement.php?f=45&a=9) and firm, but not oppressive, moderation by people who aren't in it as an ego booster. We lean pretty heavily on rule #1 and point at rule #2 when anybody disagrees with our definition of civility. We don't always moderate the same way every time, but most of the members understand we're not robots. Some have told us to take a hike when they didn't like they way we run the place. We've kicked a few truly disruptive people out the door. And many others have said, "you know, you're right" when we've taken them aside privately and said, "you're being a jerk."

Anyway, I guess the upshot of this is that I urge the mods to take a long hard look at applying the "don't be a jerk" rule versus adding another one for a specific case. It gives the membership a lot of room to self-moderate by having civilized discussions like this one.

--Mark

deach
09-18-2009, 05:04 AM
What is this "sex" thing everyone is talking about?

Thumper
09-18-2009, 05:06 AM
What is this "sex" thing everyone is talking about?

I think it has something to do with why most ukuleles have a hole in them. But I could be wrong.

deach
09-18-2009, 05:15 AM
I think it has something to do with why most ukuleles have a hole in them. But I could be wrong.

I thought that was beer bottle holder.

hoosierhiver
09-18-2009, 05:22 AM
When we, the UU community, get talking about serious issues, I'm always impressed at the outstanding character of this bunch. I love this place.

The world, including the internet can be rude, callous and self-centered. It's always a wonder to me that most all ukulele players seem consistantly above the common fray.:D

haolejohn
09-18-2009, 05:47 AM
HH, I agree with ya. One thing that concerns me however is that we can support a belief but when someone doesn't support this same belief then they are a "douchebag" or there is something "wrong" with them. Isn't that the same thing?

RevWill
09-18-2009, 05:55 AM
HH, I agree with ya. One thing that concerns me however is that we can support a belief but when someone doesn't support this same belief then they are a "douchebag" or there is something "wrong" with them. Isn't that the same thing?

Not really. People can believe what they want to believe but shouldn't be jerks about it. If I had decided to become a vegan for moral and ethical reasons that's one thing. If I decided to share some of that information on the board in a polite manner (e.g. stating why I became a vegan without telling others they are wrong or immoral for not doing likewise) that's another. I would cross the line, however, if I changed my sig to say "Meat is MURDER" and went on crusades critiquing people whenever they posted about good bbq or sushi or something.

There's having a controversial belief, and then there's being a jerk about that belief.

ukerazy
09-18-2009, 06:29 AM
Not really. People can believe what they want to believe but shouldn't be jerks about it. If I had decided to become a vegan for moral and ethical reasons that's one thing. If I decided to share some of that information on the board in a polite manner (e.g. stating why I became a vegan without telling others they are wrong or immoral for not doing likewise) that's another. I would cross the line, however, if I changed my sig to say "Meat is MURDER" and went on crusades critiquing people whenever they posted about good bbq or sushi or something.

There's having a controversial belief, and then there's being a jerk about that belief.

You make a lot of sense to me, I admire you.

haolejohn
09-18-2009, 06:57 AM
Not really. People can believe what they want to believe but shouldn't be jerks about it. If I had decided to become a vegan for moral and ethical reasons that's one thing. If I decided to share some of that information on the board in a polite manner (e.g. stating why I became a vegan without telling others they are wrong or immoral for not doing likewise) that's another. I would cross the line, however, if I changed my sig to say "Meat is MURDER" and went on crusades critiquing people whenever they posted about good bbq or sushi or something.

There's having a controversial belief, and then there's being a jerk about that belief.

You are saying the same thing but by calling the person you don't agree with a name you are participating in the same way. I don't always share my beliefs and I am by no means a homophobia which means fear of homosexuals. If i disagree with that lifestyle and I'm not a jerk how does that make me practice homophobia or why does that make me a jerk? If I'm called a "douchebag" for believing what I believe how come that is right? I understand the OPs concerns but I really don't think it is a problem here. If you call someone a douchebag or say their thinking is wrong or something is wrong with them that IS the same thing as being a homophobe. I have the right to live anyway I want to live. There are consequences for my actions and I must be willing to accept them. If I called people on here a "insert derogatory name/term here" I must be willing to accept the repercussions from the community.

I'll be honest with everyone. I'm preacher of the Christian faith as well as a teacher and I believe the same way that Jesus believes.

I love people regardless of what they believe or their lifestyle. I live my life by the golden rule. I am not perfect and I have never met a perfect person.

This is why I think the rule "don't be a jerk" is sufficient. It is common knowledge and it is common fact that civility resides here at UU. When it doesn't and we all remember the recent banning, the Mods or members (think marketplace) take care of it.

RevWill
09-18-2009, 07:05 AM
I get your point. I do believe that a brief statement like: "comments that are deemed to be derogatory or insensitive in relation to race, gender, creed, color, culture, or sexual orientation will not be tolerated" would not be out of line.

PattyD
09-18-2009, 07:11 AM
Seems to me you that if you make a "No homophobia" rule, interpretation of what is or isn't a violation of that rule is ultimately going to have to go to the mods anyway. Or else the members are going to take a vigilante stand and try to enforce the rule themselves, which we all know is a recipe for disaster and the flame throwers as well as the flameproof jammies come out. So why not just leave it the mods without adding specifics?

The statement about monogamy, for example, can be construed to be insulting to those who practice polygamy. Before you know it, somebody will be asking for monogamy comments to be considered a "no-no".

You are setting a precedent that can open a Pandora's Box, when mods are already in place to handle these situations. Let them do their jobs.

PattyD
09-18-2009, 07:15 AM
I get your point. I do believe that a brief statement like: "comments that are deemed to be derogatory or insensitive in relation to race, gender, creed, color, culture, or sexual orientation will not be tolerated" would not be out of line.

It's already there in a different language, but one which ultimately covers more territory.

"Don't be a jerk"

Doctroid
09-18-2009, 07:30 AM
PattyD, the precedent is already there. It's not being set now. The rules already spell out some specific forms of being a jerk.

Some people need to be informed that insulting someone's sexual orientation is being a jerk.

haolejohn
09-18-2009, 07:51 AM
I get your point. I do believe that a brief statement like: "comments that are deemed to be derogatory or insensitive in relation to race, gender, creed, color, culture, or sexual orientation will not be tolerated" would not be out of line.

Totally agree. That is a good statement.

PattyD
09-18-2009, 08:08 AM
PattyD, the precedent is already there. It's not being set now. The rules already spell out some specific forms of being a jerk.

Some people need to be informed that insulting someone's sexual orientation is being a jerk.

OK then, as a woman, I find the term "douche bag" to be highly offensive. I humbly request that the people who have said that be reprimanded, please, and let it be known for future reference that the use of such terms is strictly forbidden, based on my right to not have gender-disparaging remarks made.

And I don't appreciate the intimation that I am substandard because I am not in a monogomous relationship. Wouldn't that be covered under sexual orientation? Reprimand please.

Point is ... insulting someone's ANYTHING isn't cool, but it's going to get tedious. What one person sees as "homophobic" someone else may not. So it's going to be a mod issue no matter what. Keep it broad, and all bases are covered.

Blrfl
09-18-2009, 08:32 AM
One of my favorite Bloom County strips: CLICKY (http://kaiser.dreamhost.com/OT_stuff/bloom_offensensitivity.jpg)

--Mark

sukie
09-18-2009, 08:33 AM
One of my favorite Bloom County strips: CLICKY (http://kaiser.dreamhost.com/OT_stuff/bloom_offensensitivity.jpg)

--Mark

Perfect! AND hilarious.:D

benmealer
09-18-2009, 08:48 AM
Rules? I didn't know there were rules. Do people really read the rules? I see that little button on forums, but after I read the rules on the first hundred or so forums I visited I figured they were all pretty much the same. I don't think I've really seen anything that offensive on here. I mean seriously if anything on THIS forum offends you that much I would hate to see how you cope in the real world.

Spooner
09-18-2009, 10:06 AM
Buddhuu, I want to thank you for trying to prevent homophobic comments on this forum. A while back, in the "no homo" thread, I got into a bit of a verbal entanglement on that topic, as a result, I wasn't going to say anything on this thread, keeping my mouth shut. However, seeing the volume of comments in response to your topic has led me to reconsider my silence.

I've been a member of this forum for a little while now, and I have really enjoyed finding a community of like-minded folks who share the same love for the ukulele as I do.

I haven't been completely honest on this board though. Whenver I have spoken of my "better half," "my spouse," etc., I have gone to great pains to remain gender neutral in my discussion. As most of you know, my online handle has the word wahine in it, and yes, 99.9% of you correctly interpreted that to mean that I am a woman. You would be correct. Where I have not been as forthcoming is in the fact that my spouse is a woman as well. Whew. Deep breath.

Please note: when I said I am a Navy wife, that is true. My wife is an LAPD lieutenant, but she also is currently serving in the Naval Reserve and she did spend a year in Iraq. And due the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy, I could never sign my name to anything I sent to her for that year, and when we were legally married in California last year we had to get a non public marriage certificate so the Dept. of Defense would not find out.

I want to note that I usually don't discuss matters like this in online forums that I frequent, whether they be ukulele related, or any other hobby or interest related. This is for a couple of reasons:

1) Because I truly don't feel that it matters. If gay people argue that we are like everyone else in every other way, then why should it matter if I live with a man or woman as long as I love ukuleles like you do? It is far more divisive and important to wage battle Kamaka versus KoAloha. ;)

2) The other main reason is because I have been afraid of being the subject of homophobia, and hateful comments. I already have heard the stories of people being deluged with negative reputation comments, and since private messages go to my email, I didn't want to get a bunch of emails telling me that I'm evil and I am going to hell. Trust me, I get enough of those from my uncle.

The main reason that I'm saying something now, is that I want to remind the people who make homophobic, or even quasi-homophobic statements (like the whole "no homo" thing) that even though you may think you don't know any gay people you do.

I'm a lawyer (though no longer practicing) and if anyone believes in the First Amendment I do. I'm not trying to prevent anyone from saying anything that they want. But I do want people to stop and think about it before you type it. You have every right to be homophobic if you want to be, or anti-Semitic, or racist. But I dare say you wouldn't say anything against a racial or religious minority on this board -- you would be aware of the consequences of your actions.

So off my soapbox, I just want to thank you again Buddhuu for your attempts to make the forum a more pleasant place for your lavender brothers and sisters. I'm sure I'm not the only one here, I just don't feel like being a closeted one anymore.

Deep breath...no going back now...click submit reply.


WW.....I think what you have said here is about the most significant social post ever made on this board. The courage you have displayed is remarkable.

That said, I totally agree that "hate" should not be tolerated.
However, humor...which often gets misconstrued...should be taken as such and not confused with hate.

I'm not exactly sure of the where's, what's or whom's....if any...this thread is aimed at. I have found no hateful remarks towards anyone on this board. Maybe I am not looking hard enough. If there are hateful remarks...they're not worth finding.

It is difficult to judge a person from their posts. Text does not have reflections and tones. Even the smiley icons can be deceiving. I have seen this a thousand times over on all sorts of message boards where someone gets the point of someone's post entirely wrong and then all hell breaks loose.

People vary greatly. What some find funny others do not. What some find acceptable others do not. I think one thing is for certain though...it is easy to see hate when it is used in a hateful manner.

I try to avoid discussing politics and religion on boards and with people in general...just to avoid any inevitable conflict. I also avoid discussing race/racism. Quick story which shows the fear that PC has put into people....
I know someone who works in an office at the front desk. One day a messenger came in to deliver a package. The messenger was African-American. He delivered the package and was trying to leave the office. The door gets locked automatically for security reasons and a button by the door has to be pushed to get out.

Well, my friend is white (not Caucasian...know it or not...that too is an offensive term). The messenger couldn't figure out what or where the button was. My friend began to explain and point to the button but stopped....realized she was about to say to the African-American messenger "Push the BLACK button." With the egg shells that people have to walk on these days in regards to terminology and PC...she was afraid of causing an incident by using the word black. Instead, she got up and went to the door to push the black button herself. Surely, we can all see the absurdity of this situation.

Moral of the story...a little tolerance goes along way....from everyone.
Hate has no place in the world...but it's everywhere.
Hate on an ukulele message board...it just doesn't belong.
A sense of humor is a must in this world.
If one looks at a painting long enough...one will find the flaws.
If one looks at that same painting a little longer...one will find the beauty.

haolejohn
09-18-2009, 10:25 AM
Rules? I didn't know there were rules. Do people really read the rules? I see that little button on forums, but after I read the rules on the first hundred or so forums I visited I figured they were all pretty much the same. I don't think I've really seen anything that offensive on here. I mean seriously if anything on THIS forum offends you that much I would hate to see how you cope in the real world.

And this is from a NYer:) There is a children's book by the good Dr. Suess that teaches a lesson about acceptance. Can't remember what it is off the top of my head.

Fred Miu
09-18-2009, 11:49 AM
OK then, as a woman, I find the term "douche bag" to be highly offensive. I humbly request that the people who have said that be reprimanded, please, and let it be known for future reference that the use of such terms is strictly forbidden, based on my right to not have gender-disparaging remarks made.

And I don't appreciate the intimation that I am substandard because I am not in a monogomous relationship. Wouldn't that be covered under sexual orientation? Reprimand please.

Point is ... insulting someone's ANYTHING isn't cool, but it's going to get tedious. What one person sees as "homophobic" someone else may not. So it's going to be a mod issue no matter what. Keep it broad, and all bases are covered.

lets have clean language then if it comes down to anything thats offensive.

but it still comes down to the :rulez:

if you write something down that you think MIGHT offend someone, then at the end of your post, please put down something along the lines of "im sorry if anything is offensive. PM me to discuss" or something like that.

im not saying do it, just to notify the people that are reading the post will be warned so that there isnt a break out.

thank you guys and ladies for keeping this thread with your thoughts and feedback. please due continue to keep it CLEAN.

thats my :2cents: for now.

pithaya9
09-18-2009, 01:09 PM
Moral of the story...a little tolerance goes along way....from everyone.
Hate has no place in the world...but it's everywhere.
Hate on an ukulele message board...it just doesn't belong.
A sense of humor is a must in this world.
If one looks at a painting long enough...one will find the flaws.
If one looks at that same painting a little longer...one will find the beauty.

This is so true. Well put Spooner.

Jack

GrumpyCoyote
09-18-2009, 02:32 PM
The fundamental here, as I've said many times, is "Respect".

Respect each other and there will be no issues. When you begin to disrespect, for whatever reason, then you are no longer participating in this community.

That's as much of a rule as I need. Respect each other.

AgentORC
09-19-2009, 03:59 AM
@wickedwahine11-Wow. That must have taken a LOT of courage. Good on you for standing up for yourself!

Now time for my little spiel...

I have a gay friend who is like an older brother to me. I am a Christian, and though I do not like the fact that he is gay, I respect the fact that it is his life, not mine. I don't try to butt into his personal life and tell him what to do and what not to do based on my beliefs. I try not to be a Christian who is like "oh, you're gay? You're going to hell" because that's rude and even though it goes against my beliefs, that person has just as much of a right to be gay as I have to be a Christian. I try to 'Make every effort to live in peace with ALL men [...]' Hebrews 12:14 because you can't force someone to believe something, they have to want to live thier lives like that.

ukantor
09-19-2009, 07:23 AM
"that person has just as much of a right to be gay as I have to be a Christian."
"you can't force someone to believe something, they have to want to live thier lives like that."

AgentORC,

I may be interpreting this wrongly, but it suggests to me that you consider sexual orientation to be a choice, or a belief. I have a gay son, who once said to me, "Some people think being gay is a choice - you'd have to be mad to CHOOSE to be gay."

We are what we are. Fate deals you a hand, and those are the cards you have to play with.

Ukantor.

ukeyermind
09-19-2009, 07:49 AM
Here's what I do. I imagine the forum as a live and in-person auditorium packed with 1000 or more people. I imagine going on to the stage alone, just me and a microphone. 1000 or more people are waiting to hear what I have to say. I step up to the microphone and make my post.

The thought of 1000 people listening to your every word should be enough to make you choose your words carefully.

I don't know if you can blame folks for feeling homophobic any more than you can blame people for not understanding algebra. Sure, most of us get it, but some folks need repeated exposures to the information before they can absorb the truth. You can be weirded out by gay people if that's your natural inclination, so long as you're not treating them poorly in your interactions with them.

My boss is gay and one of my subordinates confided in me something like, "I don't mind gay people, but it grosses me out to think about what they do in their bedrooms." And I said, yeah, me too, if I'm honest. But you know what else grosses me out? Thinking about my straight parents in their bedroom. Or thinking about the people I work with in their bedrooms. Or my neighbors.

Basically, thinking about anyone doing anything in their bedrooms is kinda off-putting to me. So since that's where the bulk of gaiety happens, I don't find it any more weird or different than what everyone else is doing.

If you say "gay" or "retarded" or "douchebag" to mean "stupid" or "lame" or "worthless", you're being mean. Because guess what? If you're meaning to say "stupid" or "lame" or "worthless", you're being mean.

I dunno if a new rule is needed, though I'm glad this community is mature enough to discuss it. Of all the forums and listservs I've been on, this one definitely takes top prize for maintaining the level of civility and positive support that I've seen in my short time here.

If someone offends you, let 'em know. In a non-confrontational, non-offensive way, assume the best of the other person, explain your perspective, and see if an understanding can be reached. If someone acts like a jerk, that's on them. If we respond to a jerk by becoming jerks ourselves, that's on us.


peace and blessings to all.

I Ukulista
09-19-2009, 08:05 AM
What a lot of words. So here are mine.

'Respect those who are different to you and demand the same'. Simples.

Care to play the ukulele anyone?

AgentORC
09-19-2009, 01:34 PM
AgentORC,

I may be interpreting this wrongly, but it suggests to me that you consider sexual orientation to be a choice, or a belief. I have a gay son, who once said to me, "Some people think being gay is a choice - you'd have to be mad to CHOOSE to be gay."

We are what we are. Fate deals you a hand, and those are the cards you have to play with.

Ukantor.
To be perfectly honest, I have no idea whether it is a choice or not. I do believe that you can choose whether or not to act upon those feelings.

benmealer
09-19-2009, 01:39 PM
time to lock now? this can't be going anywhere good. btw, AgentORC, don't be a troll.

AgentORC
09-19-2009, 02:13 PM
I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to be mean or anything.

haolejohn
09-19-2009, 03:05 PM
time to lock now? this can't be going anywhere good. btw, AgentORC, don't be a troll.

I don't think he's being a troll but the question asked of him would lead in that direction. I agree with ya though ben. I vote lock it now before it gets ugly.

itsme
09-19-2009, 04:56 PM
Honestly, I don't care if you're black, white, purple, or gay or straight. This is a ukulele forum, that's all we need to know, that you're into ukes, and those other things shouldn't even enter into the equation.

Fred Miu
09-19-2009, 05:07 PM
Honestly, I don't care if you're black, white, purple, or gay or straight. This is a ukulele forum, that's all we need to know, that you're into ukes, and those other things shouldn't even enter into the equation.

:agree: awesome. great mentality

ukantor
09-19-2009, 10:15 PM
Agent ORC. You are a Christian, right? Christianity is about love?

Just want to say, I love my son unreservedly. He is a wonderful human being.

Ukantor.

buddhuu
09-20-2009, 12:04 AM
That strikes me as a nice note to end on.

Mods, I agree with the requests to close the thread while everyone's still friends.

ukantor
09-20-2009, 12:45 AM
I agree with Buddhuu - you'll never know how much restraint I had to use in the face of AgentORC's comments.

This topic has run its course.

Ukantor

wickedwahine11
09-20-2009, 02:20 AM
Lock this thread...please I beg of you. Before I (or anyone on either side says something that we can't take back).

But for the record, no I don't choose to be thus way. Why would I choose to live a life (not lifestyle) where I cannot have my legal marriage recognized by the federal government. We get no marital tax benefits and no stimulus we don't even get the new car tax rebate because we are not a federally considered "family."Why would my spouse choose a life where she cannot serve openly in her nation's military? Why would I choose a life that subjects me to physical harm and public ridicule?

And yes, I could choose not to act in respect of who I am, if I wanted to die alone and unloved.

I respect a Christian's right to feel otherwise but no, I didn't choose this and even if I did - our nation respects the right of it's people to choose to practice any religion they wish. You don't have to be Christian, you could choose to practice Islam or Judaism or Buddhism but it is your right as an American to choose to be Christian. So I never really understood why it should matter whether being gay is a choice or not. And if you consider it a sin, so is eating shellfish, wearing polyester or working in Sunday. The Bible declares each to be an abomination. Just saying...

AgentORC we can agree to disagree but I appreciate that you mean well and are trying to reconcile your faith with your feelings.

Ukantor ... Your son is lucky to have you. :)

Sorry didn't mean to do a long diatribe again, I just felt as the token gay I was in a position to address the choice thing firsthand.

HaileISela
09-20-2009, 03:26 AM
So, to keep the calm spirit, I'll lock this thread now. I think everything necessary has been brought up. Maybe Rayan should take a look at it since he and the other staff members have the final decision on whether or not the rules should be changed.

Peace, Love and Harmony!