ukulele nuts and saddles and compensation

Matt Clara

Matt Clara

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First, what's the most cost effective way to cut the slots in your nut and saddle (bone, in this case). I don't have any files that thin, but I do have a hacksaw blade!

Also, I was watching Dave G's video on making the saddle, and it appears Dave compensates all of his high G strings by having that part of the saddle lean back from the middle of the uke, towards the end of the body, effectively moving the point of contact back a millimeter or so. I've owned five ukes now, and only one had anything like this, the kiwaya, and that simply thinned out the area where the C string met, effectively moving back it's point of contact about a millimeter. I did some searching of UU before posting this, so I see some advice that it won't matter on a soprano, but I'm considering it for my cigar box concert uke I'm building. Is it something I should concern myself with at this point, or just not worry about it? And then, why does kiwaya compensate for the C string and Dave the G string? Any of the other luthiers here doing either one?
 
Torch cleaners do work for the slots. You can also get a precision file set at a hardware store to start the slots then finish them to size with the torch cleaners. The difference in compensation is most likely due to the string diameter and its tension. Lighter gauge strings, as does longer scale instruments, will require more compensation.

You can also do compensation at the nut instead of the saddle.
 
On the two tusq saddles i've created for a concert and a tenor, neither have needed compensation for any strings. I made sure to shape the top for the most string relief into the tie off, which gives the string more surface contact into the bridge, helps keep strings from breaking, etc. I was prepared to compensate the C and E as i've seen with many, then also thought i'd need to work on the low g, but so far, both ukes are intonated perfectly without this. If I was to compensate for those, though, I basically use sand paper to "work" the material back, then give it a proper "point" for the string to crossover. I have also used a sanding drum on my dremel to quickly and cleanly notch those back, then fine tune with 100-220 sand paper folded to a sharp point. a little tedious but works. Guitar saddles are a little roomier and more predictable, that's what I'm mostly used to.

As for the nut, I too am in the place where I'm either going to spend $150 from stewmac and get proper tools or finding some cheaper alternative. I've been happy working with the precut tusq nuts and some sharply folded fine grit wet sand grade sandpaper.

I plan to go look at these torch tip deals tho! might be a great way to go!
 
dave g said:
Ummm... Wanna think about that? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. There are reasons for nut compensation, but only for open strings. Once they're fretted, the compensation is all about the saddle.

Usually compensation gets longer for thicker strings, not thinner. The "VSL" (vibrating string length) is a tiny bit shorter for stiffer strings as they don't vibrate as much at the very ends. That, combined with string stretch when fretted pretty much puts the majority of the compensation at the saddle end.

If, after all this, the open string is a bit flat and all the fretted notes are right on, then you can work on the nut.
 
dave g said:
Ummm... Wanna think about that? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I don't need to think about it. There are lots of examples of compensated nuts with plenty of data to support it. There are also a fair amount of patents related to different processes in achieving compensating the nut. Generally, you wont notice it as much on shorter scale instruments as you will on longer.

Think about it this way, the middle of the scale is at the 12th fret. If you intonate your instrument using the 12th fret harmonic, not fretting at the twelfth then the open string will be "in tune." When you fret it at the 12th fret the distance the string travels to touch the fret makes it sharp. Once you start up the neck or down the neck then it begins to get sharper. By the time you get to the first or 24th fret, you are probaly a couple cents of in tuning. So, if you compensate both the nut and saddle to allow for the changes then it will ideally fret perfectly as well as be perfect when plucked unfretted. So, lets say that you need to compensate 1/8" to get the intonation right. If the bridge and frets are set properly is set in the correct spot then you can compensate the bridge and nut 1/16" and it will play in perfect tune. Make sense?
 
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thistle3585 said:
Make sense?
Click to expand...

No, not really.

I know of the Buzz Feiten system which compensates the nut and the saddle, sacrificing some note accuracy a bit above and below pitch to distribute the errors, but it's a bit more involved than what you're suggesting. I'm not saying it can't be done (well, actually I am. Considering our modern pitch standards, any fretted instrument is a bundle of compromises) bit it's not just the nut. Both have to be carefully balanced with most of the effect happening at the saddle end.

Using the Feiten system, you need a different tuner that is calibrated to match the errors he introduces. Also, it makes it hard to play exactly in tune with other players who don't use this system.
 
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I agree that it is a bundle of compromises. I was just trying to simplify it and maybe I made it more complicated. There are quite a few approaches to it. In addition to the Buzz Feitein system there is Hartley, Earvana, Ernie Ball and others.


I guess we'll need to agree to disagree on it. :)
 
uh, why compensate this way and that way on nut and saddle, making all these compromises in order to get decent intonation when you could just leave the nut and saddle alone and have good intonation...seems like a dog-gone long way around the barn. If you wanna compensate the saddle alone for "perfect", that makes sense to me, but why bounce around jiggy-jogging with the nut?

the only way you're going to know the difference between the two (regular and compensated) is if you sit there with a chromatic tuner watching the line barely eek past green, if at all. Even still 98% people cant hear that minimal difference...and I'm even skeptical about those 2%. I think its more academic than anything
 
Lets say that you buy a uke and you don't like the string gauge on it or that you want to use an alternate tuning, and you don't want to pop the bridge off to move it back to allow for better intonation. So, your options are put a wider saddle on it or compensate the saddle and the nut. Honestly, on an acoustical instrument you are correct. I doubt that you are going to hear the difference which is why this system is primarily used with electric instruments where it may make a big difference especially in a recording studio. Also, it would allow for better tracking accuracy for instruments that are used in midi applications. I'm not saying every instrument will benefit from this but it is an option to consider when setting up an instrument.

More than anything else, if you spent a short amount of time reading the articles associated with this process you might learn something new in how instruments work.
 
If there is any OCD about me, it is bad intonation. It drives me nuts, I can hear it a mile away. I've learned to deal with it by drinking a beer or two, then I don't worry about it. :p

Has anybody ever played on a fan-fretted guitar?

249328242_5c52dae770.jpg


Greenfield_G4_fanned_fret_Jy9.jpg




I wonder how this would work on a ukulele
 
cornfedgroove said:
uh, why compensate this way and that way on nut and saddle, making all these compromises in order to get decent intonation when you could just leave the nut and saddle alone and have good intonation...seems like a dog-gone long way around the barn. If you wanna compensate the saddle alone for "perfect", that makes sense to me, but why bounce around jiggy-jogging with the nut?

the only way you're going to know the difference between the two (regular and compensated) is if you sit there with a chromatic tuner watching the line barely eek past green, if at all. Even still 98% people cant hear that minimal difference...and I'm even skeptical about those 2%. I think its more academic than anything
Click to expand...

I'd bet there's more than 2% that can hear the difference. Not trying to start an argument or anything, nor am I saying all ukes need to be compensated. When I play an uke, with it tuned up perfectly according to the chromatic tuner, then fret some chords, I can tell when there is a string that may be a bit sharp. I take out the tuner again and play that chord, sure enough, one of the strings is sharp. I would think most builders of all people can hear the difference such as a string that gets sharp up the fretboard, anyone?
 
uluapoundr said:
I'd bet there's more than 2% that can hear the difference. Not trying to start an argument or anything, nor am I saying all ukes need to be compensated. When I play an uke, with it tuned up perfectly according to the chromatic tuner, then fret some chords, I can tell when there is a string that may be a bit sharp. I take out the tuner again and play that chord, sure enough, one of the strings is sharp. I would think most builders of all people can hear the difference such as a string that gets sharp up the fretboard, anyone?
Click to expand...

Consider this from Ukulele World:

"The Ukulele is the instrument of "innocent merriment." Nothing more.
Ukuleles are fun instruments. Ukuleles are not acoustic physics laboratories with small sound chambers.
People pay thousands of dollars for custom guitars to improve intonation, but expect the ukulele to match the same precision. It just ain't gonna happen....
When you see a ukulele advertised with "perfect" intonation, you will also see a statement of utter falsehood."

The full text can be found here: http://www.ukuleleworld.com/intonation.html?js=n
 
Moore Bettah Ukuleles said:
Consider this from Ukulele World:

"The Ukulele is the instrument of "innocent merriment." Nothing more.
Ukuleles are fun instruments. Ukuleles are not acoustic physics laboratories with small sound chambers.
People pay thousands of dollars for custom guitars to improve intonation, but expect the ukulele to match the same precision. It just ain't gonna happen....
When you see a ukulele advertised with "perfect" intonation, you will also see a statement of utter falsehood."

The full text can be found here: http://www.ukuleleworld.com/intonation.html?js=n
Click to expand...

Chuck...you lied to me!!! :p
 
Spooner said:
Chuck...you lied to me!!! :p
Click to expand...

Whoops, you misunderstood me Spooner. I didn't write that, not do I necessarily agree with it. Someone posted that here a few weeks ago and at first I thought it was heresy, then I found it refreshing. It's just another view point that can hopefully add some balance to the discussion. I personally find myself nestled comfortably somewhere between the art and the science of building.
 
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