Saddle Transfer

Does this kind of thing increase vibration transfer. I got a pretty tall saddle and I dont figure it will be a problem, but it might look cool if I drilled a few holes in it for kicks. Thought that the decrease in saddle surface area might increase the transfer into the bridge regardless of how minute. Anyone got some technical jargon they'd like to share about this.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GERMAN-MAPLE-EB...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53dd2cb758

Having tried an ebony saddle (and a few other very dense hardwoods) I can say that bone still sounds the best.

I've notched out a few saddles when I absolutely couldn't solve a handful of balance problems with the pickup. I can barely hear the acoustic difference, but there is a noticeable increase in the individual string articulation., when amplified. Not night and day, but noticeable enough to be note worthy, in my opinion.

Keep in mind that tweaks such as those won't make or break a good ukulele. In a recent thread in the general discussion area, there was a question about why customs take so long and if they're worth the wait. For those of us that do both production and custom work, those little tweaks are what make the difference. However, they're a whole lot of little tweaks that add up to something that you can hear and feel.

I agree

The thing about my cbu's is that I make my own thru-neck. I dont angle it off the body so I mount the neck to make sure the fretboard is pretty high above the top of the soundboard (1/2 inch - 5/16s maybe) to keep the action low. I had bought a few bridges from LMI, but the plastic saddles suck, so I cut, shave and swap em out with corian (much better). sometimes I jack up the math on the neck placement and have to make the saddle taller than normal LOL (sssh)...so I thought maybe I could pretty it up and help the sound by putting some holes in it.

Moveable bridges and fixed bridges activate the soundboard in different ways.

It seems to me that you're thinking the lighter saddle will improve vibration transfer. On the simple side, vibration transfer, as Paul alluded to, directly relates to UST's in particular.

In this case, really take a look at a moveable bridge (with a tailpiece) and a fixed bridge. Once you figure out how each works, or, what happens when you pluck the string, you may change your question to refer to the bridge (or bridge plate) rather than the saddle.

Hint: there's a reason the body is sometimes metaphored as an air pump (particularly guitars).

-Aaron

Now I feel dumb. After reading the abbreviation about a hundred times, I finally realized that "cbu" stands for Cigar Box Uke. The whole time, I kept thinking about some kind of composite material.

you feel dumb? Kekani just went all technical on me...I didnt realize the a single piece bridge/tailpiece was a different dynamic than one with a separate tailpiece...nor did I realize that floating bridge was any different than a fixed one. I dont understand the airpump thing although I do believe I remember reading about a soundboard thicker in the middle and thinner around the edges somehow produces some air pump affect?? something like that. I suppose I need to read a book or two...although I hate that idea.

cornfedgroove said:

you feel dumb? Kekani just went all technical on me...I didnt realize the a single piece bridge/tailpiece was a different dynamic than one with a separate tailpiece...nor did I realize that floating bridge was any different than a fixed one. I dont understand the airpump thing although I do believe I remember reading about a soundboard thicker in the middle and thinner around the edges somehow produces some air pump affect?? something like that. I suppose I need to read a book or two...although I hate that idea.

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I didn't mean to sound condescending, but its threads like these that all of the theorists come out, which usually supports fruitful, albeit sometimes outlandish, discussion. If you had the answer already, you wouldn't have to think about it. What good is that?

A while back, I presented a "question" so to speak to a mechanical engineer friend, it basically had to do with rotational forces and pivot points of a stressed member, pulled in one direction, with torque forces and resultant action. I didn't tell him what it was, but to make a long story short, it was the action at the bridge, and where the pivot point was. Once I told him what I was looking for, he responded, "I always wondered why guitars are larger at the bottom. Now it makes sense, or not, where the bridge is placed."

CFG - you're headed in the right direction, although, since you got it that an archtop generates sound differently from a flattop. . . what was the original question again?

-Aaron

First off, you were not seen as condescending in any way...so its all good. There's nothing wrong with getting technical, its supposed to be that way. Some of us though are a little behind on the learning curve, so naturally there are discussions that involve specifics on point "D", and I'm only up to speed on A and B, and so its over my head. That is to be expected, and doesnt bother me at all. It is, after all, the luthier forum, and I...am not a luthier I will glean what I am able.

I believe Paul effectively answered my question...my question was not about the dynamics of floating vs fixed or even the air pump theory, but rather regarding notched saddles. I have had to improvise a larger saddle as you can see in the 2nd picture on this last post.

http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20509

I thought since I have such a comparatively large saddle, that there was more surface area to absorb and diminish the sound through the transfer process. Soooo if I notched or drilled some holes in the saddle, decreasing surface area, it would increase the amount of transfer to the soundboard. My question was effectively if that was theoretically correct, and then wondering if anyone had tried it to see if it worked out in reality.

Cigar Boxes are not "ideal" as you can imagine, so the little things do make a difference. I have a question about these strings that I'm going to post on Uke Talk forum, so I can kind of get a feel for how they effect the sound.

On "air pumps"

If you put your hand over the soundhole on a guitar, and tap the guitar on the lower bout, you will feel the air pump out of the sound hole, quite signifigantly. It's the fine line between stiffness, and too much flex that really make a guitar sing. I haven't experimented with ukes, YET, but that's right around the corner. And this discussion about bridges is enlightening.

A number of years ago, I was fortunate enough to have a customer pay me to experiment with bridge design on his mandolin. I made a number of bridges and saddles out of different materials, drilled holes in them, altered the feet and tried a number of things. In the end, the only conclusions reached were that bridges and saddles are often overlooked components that can make a huge difference in how a given instrument sounds. I now advise anyone making an instrument with a floating bridge, to make and try at least 2 or 3 bridges. The difference between bridges of the same design and materials is often amazing.

Brad

Why not make a bridge out of two parts, effectively extending the groove in the bridge where the saddle rests right through the bottom, so the saddle actually rests on the soundboard? Then it would be strings, saddle, soundboard instead of strings, saddle, bridge, soundboard...?

Here is an interesting page on floating bridges and how modifications affect the tone. http://www.murphymethod.com/redbridge.html

mattclara said:

Why not make a bridge out of two parts, effectively extending the groove in the bridge where the saddle rests right through the bottom, so the saddle actually rests on the soundboard? Then it would be strings, saddle, soundboard instead of strings, saddle, bridge, soundboard...?

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I made a mandolin one time with only floating saddle...no bridge. I didnt even have sound holes in it, and it was bought up right away by a true-blue player. He played it ten minutes and was like shaazaaam! "I want it". We both agreed soundholes would be interesting, but every instrument sounds different and when you find one you love, dont screw with it. I wonder if that saddle had anything to do with it. It was a cigar box mandolin, shallow body, thin wood and really sounded good for what it was. It sounded good enough where he said he'd play out with it and leave his 1918 at home...maybe I just got lucky.

thistle3585 said:

Here is an interesting page on floating bridges and how modifications affect the tone. http://www.murphymethod.com/redbridge.html

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awesome information here...I am not a huge reader so this link is as far as I can make it in one sitting, but is really at the heart of the issue for this post

http://www.murphymethod.com/ebonybridge.html

like I said...I havent read any of the rest. Perhaps it gets even better, but such is my life. My reading level is great, but my attn span along with my ability and desire to sit for long times is lacking.

cornfedgroove said:

awesome information here...I am not a huge reader so this link is as far as I can make it in one sitting, but is really at the heart of the issue for this post

http://www.murphymethod.com/ebonybridge.html

like I said...I havent read any of the rest. Perhaps it gets even better, but such is my life. My reading level is great, but my attn span along with my ability and desire to sit for long times is lacking.

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Well, let me sum it up for you. A hard maple bridge with a split foot, wings*, and a couple holes drilled in the middle make the best mandolin bridges.

*The wings were just a couple of slots cut in the side of the bridge, going in about a quarter inch or so, effectively separating the outer quarter inch of the top from the bottom.

mattclara said:

Why not make a bridge out of two parts, effectively extending the groove in the bridge where the saddle rests right through the bottom, so the saddle actually rests on the soundboard? Then it would be strings, saddle, soundboard instead of strings, saddle, bridge, soundboard...?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how sturdy it would be compared to a single bridge piece, but I have seen this on guitars (usually steel string)where the saddle slot is routed all the way through the bridge. I have a guitar with a screw adjustable saddle that is built that way. The only thing that contacts the soundboard is the base that the screws are threaded into. Essentially the saddle assembly is in four parts, the soundboard contact (metal) the saddle (plastic, glued to metal ears that straddle the screw shaft) and two screws. This whole assembly sits into a rather wide captive slot routed into the bridge.

mattclara said:

Well, let me sum it up for you. A hard maple bridge with a split foot, wings*, and a couple holes drilled in the middle make the best mandolin bridges.

*The wings were just a couple of slots cut in the side of the bridge, going in about a quarter inch or so, effectively separating the outer quarter inch of the top from the bottom.

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haha, I kinda figured it went something like that...I suppose you just have to remember that some elements of sound are subjective. I would say that it sounds like the wings and holes could aid in maximizing transfer, increasing volume and somehow keeping it balanced. i think there may be a certain range of wood types that would all be good choices...not just maple.

mattclara said:

Why not make a bridge out of two parts, effectively extending the groove in the bridge where the saddle rests right through the bottom, so the saddle actually rests on the soundboard? Then it would be strings, saddle, soundboard instead of strings, saddle, bridge, soundboard...?

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First, we are still talking about `ukulele, and not floating bridge instruments, right?

If the objective is to have vibration transfer from the saddle to the soundboard, then I suppose that would make sense.

Personally, the bridge is a brace and has its own function. The only vibration transfer I'm concerned about is from saddle to UST. For me, slotting to the board wouldn't make sense because:
1) I don't have a hardwood base for the UST.
2) I would have to route the slot with the bridge attached to make sure the angle of the saddle going into the bridge would all match up (this is something I do, along with a few others.
3) This would weaken the structure of the bridge, and the function I intend to get out of it. This alone would justify why not.

Just my $.02 - Aaron

Kekani said:

First, we are still talking about `ukulele, and not floating bridge instruments, right?

If the objective is to have vibration transfer from the saddle to the soundboard, then I suppose that would make sense.

Personally, the bridge is a brace and has its own function. The only vibration transfer I'm concerned about is from saddle to UST. For me, slotting to the board wouldn't make sense because:
1) I don't have a hardwood base for the UST.
2) I would have to route the slot with the bridge attached to make sure the angle of the saddle going into the bridge would all match up (this is something I do, along with a few others.
3) This would weaken the structure of the bridge, and the function I intend to get out of it. This alone would justify why not.

Just my $.02 - Aaron

Click to expand...

Seems like there are ways to deal with all of your perfectly legitimate points, except I'm not sure what you mean by UST, unless it's just the soundboard.