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View Full Version : Planer, or Drum Sander?



Matt Clara
11-01-2009, 09:51 AM
I picked up a nice used Delta 13 in. planer, and it works well for pieces that aren't already too thin, but I put a piece of cherry I'd resawed down to 3/32, through, hoping to clean it up some, and it chopped (gouged it and shredded one end) it up till it's useless. I'm thinking I might want to sell it and invest in a drum sander like the Jet 10-20 (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=jet+drum+sander&oe=utf-8&cid=12352372050745319974&sa=title#p). Anyone have any thoughts on this? I'd have to find another good deal used, but I could start keeping my eyes open.

Timbuck
11-01-2009, 10:36 AM
Most of us use a home built one..I made this one out of an old shower pump motor.
and scraps of wood...here I'm sanding down the back of the headstocks
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT2858.jpg

Pete Howlett
11-01-2009, 10:37 AM
That is what planers do... have you tried making a false bed out of some flat ply and make sure the grain is in the right direction? Most luthiers starting out make their own sanders. Posted before Heath Robinson above got in there. Seriously, Ken is brilliant at doing just enough to get something together and as if by magic, it is just right!

Sven
11-01-2009, 10:40 AM
The drum sander is better than the planer IMO. I ruined some very nice tops in a big planer a while back, even though I put them on plywood with double stick tape. I have a miniature planer that takes care of the fingerboards (the rosewood I use clog the paper in the sander), but my very low budget home made sander is far more useful.

I couldn't find any sanders to buy, so I built this one from a bread rolling pin, some ball bearings and a pivoting table. I've been meaning to get a proper motor for it but I am so bad at electronics and stuff like that so I don't really know where to start looking. I know ppl use motors from pumps and washing machines, but... the power drill did a marvellous job today. Sanded 23 tops and some sides in a couple of hours. Two 40-grit papers and one 120-grit spent.

So. If you can trade, afford to buy one, or build one. Do it.

All the best / Sven

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gXMDRA552Y0/SuwvGM_UzII/AAAAAAAAAsk/BgXpyg4uCm8/s320/bild-736292.jpg

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
11-01-2009, 10:41 AM
You can get by without a planer but not without a drum sander. I personally don't use a planer because it tears up koa. If you are doing a good job at resawing, a sander is probably all you need.
You're going to hate hearing this but you might want to consider stepping up to a 16/32. Woodcraft often has Performax models on sale. I've heard negative things about Delta. Grizzly is also good.

Pete Howlett
11-01-2009, 11:03 AM
Stockroom Supply in Canada have a great system that works for shop built thicknessers and as you can see, Sven has a great solution. Necessity is always the mother of invention.

I have read as much also Chuck...however the class amateur builder Kathy Matsua has as 10/20 and finds it OK as does my mate Richard. I guess they don't use them that much to notice and like anything, they need setting up carefully.

Still, have fun building your own for a fraction of the price! :cool: BTW if you have a pillar drill with a rise and fall table I have the solution for you...

Timbuck
11-01-2009, 11:27 AM
Sven...you told me, that "this machine" was for making "Pasta"...and what is all this "Mass production" all about ?????..It's no wonder a that I can't sell anything in "Viking Scandanavia"

camface
11-01-2009, 11:34 AM
What's the purpose of the pivoting table? All the homemade thickness sanders I've seen seem to have them.

Pete Howlett
11-01-2009, 11:34 AM
Sven has that market sewn up - and you are rapidly getting all the business in the UK Ken....

dave g
11-01-2009, 11:46 AM
A sander is the way to go - here's mine:

http://www.wsukes.com/temp/ts4.jpg

I've since made it it's own set of legs and a dust collection hood. Really handy - for the obvious, the backs of peg heads (as Timbuck mentioned), and even for making nut files from needle files :D

And speaking of sanding, I got one of these yesterday: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93431 and I'm wondering how I got along without it all this time! Makes short work of taking out the inevitable ripples the drum sander leaves. And it was on sale for $20 and I had a 15% off coupon too :)

Timbuck
11-01-2009, 12:02 PM
A sander is the way to go - here's mine:

http://www.wsukes.com/temp/ts4.jpg

I've since made it it's own set of legs and a dust collection hood. Really handy - for the obvious, the backs of peg heads (as Timbuck mentioned), and even for making nut files from needle files :D

And speaking of sanding, I got one of these yesterday: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93431 and I'm wondering how I got along without it all this time! Makes short work of taking out the inevitable ripples the drum sander leaves. And it was on sale for $20 and I had a 15% off coupon too :)

The reason you get ripples is because the base plate is too thin.. it has to be thick and sturdy with no sag .. 1/2 inch (or greater) steel plate would cure it....my sander had the same problem until I upgraded the 18mm Plywood board up to 40mm Chipboard...it's a good sander Dave, get your mate to do the mod's and it will be the best.;)

RonS
11-01-2009, 01:06 PM
The gouging the planer makes at the end of the board is called snipe. Try lifting the board just before it leaves the blades. Locking the head down helps too, I don't know if the Delta can do this.

Making a long bed under the planer also helps. Just make sure it is fixed to the bed somehow. My bed extends 5" from the planer

If all else fails use a board that is 6" longer than you need and cut off the snipe when you are done.

A cantilevered drum sanders are "ok" but don't expect perfect results trying to match a wide top. In other words a Jet 10/20 will only reliably sand 10" a Performex 16/32 will only reliably sand 16". Go for a drum sander that is fixed on both ends.

I know a few people with lathes who turn them into drum sanders

BTW - good drum sanders will not leave ripples.

camface: the pivoting table is used to change the thickness

dave g
11-01-2009, 02:02 PM
The reason you get ripples is because the base plate is too thin..

Humm... I'm thinking it has more to do with the uneven rate of feed from feeding it by hand - but maybe not (that's 5/16" steel plate...). The drum is also out of balance somewhat - it vibrates quite a bit, which can't be helping. But, all in all it's doing a great job :) (And the new DA sander makes it perfect!)

zog
11-01-2009, 03:46 PM
I have had the 10/20 for a few months now. It is very accurate and I just got done with a electric bass that required 2 pass sanding (over 10" wide) the transition between directions is invisible. Getting the feed belt to track was the hardest part of setting it up, but after that was done I have had no problems.

I also have a 12" delta planer, it will only go down to about .110 minimum I have sanded down to .030 with the 10/20. So the drum sander is what you need for ukes for sure.

One thing, you need a dust collector for a drum sander.

Matt Clara
11-01-2009, 05:05 PM
I have read as much also Chuck...however the class amateur builder Kathy Matsua has as 10/20 and finds it OK as does my mate Richard. I guess they don't use them that much to notice and like anything, they need setting up carefully.

I can't help but note that Grizzly offers a 12 inch "Baby" sander (http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Baby-Drum-Sander/G0459), enclosed on both ends, with more horses and 2 more inches over the jet, for the same price, delivered...

Darrel
11-01-2009, 05:32 PM
I can't help but note that Grizzly offers a 12 inch "Baby" sander (http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Baby-Drum-Sander/G0459), enclosed on both ends, with more horses and 2 more inches over the jet, for the same price, delivered...

I looked into that sander prior to getting the Jet and decided against it as the specifications for it say it will only go down to 1/8" so anything smaller would require a backer board.

-darrel

koalohapaul
11-01-2009, 09:21 PM
I have limited experience with the smaller machines, but I will say this. Get as large of a sander as your budget and space will allow. Seems like you're getting all of the machinery ready to start jamming on some ukes. If you continue to build, (and I'm pretty sure you will), you won't regret buying a larger machine than you think you need at the moment.

Having the right tools doesn't make a good luthier, but it sure makes life a heck of a lot easier.

I've had great experience with Grizzly, although I've heard otherwise from people. I have a 20" planer that I rarely use anymore, but I ran that thing 8 hours straight, on a daily basis. I kept it well maintained and never had a single problem with it. I also have a 10" cabinet saw and 12" spiral jointer that I run for at least 4 hours a day. Neither tool has given me any problems.

One thing nice about drum sanders is that they often come with variable speed control. It comes in real handy when you sand harder woods. What I don't like about them is changing the belts. It's not that hard, but one of those jobs that I consider to be a PITA. They're great for finish work, but I prefer a wide belt sander for most general work. Changing belts takes about 15 seconds and it's really easy to rough down some resawn stock to finished thickness. People may argue that drum sanders are more accurate, but I find that the accuracy is very comparable. I shoot for +/- .001" deviation from the target thickness on any given board that I sand and both of them are able to bring the wood within that range.

Matt Clara
11-02-2009, 01:43 AM
I looked into that sander prior to getting the Jet and decided against it as the specifications for it say it will only go down to 1/8" so anything smaller would require a backer board.

-darrel

I looked at the pdf specs, where it indicates the smallest board it will accept is 1/8 in. If they allow a 1/8 in. board, seems like one could take it down from there some. But it's not perfectly clear, so I wrote Grizzly and asked.

Matt Clara
11-02-2009, 04:29 AM
I've got a Craig's List lead on a PerformaX 16-32. I talked the guy down to $450, now I've got to talk him into taking PayPal!
:D

dave g
11-02-2009, 05:21 AM
I've got a Craig's List lead on a PerformaX 16-32. I talked the guy down to $450, now I've got to talk him into taking PayPal!
:D

Cool! :) ........

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
11-02-2009, 07:10 AM
I've got a Craig's List lead on a PerformaX 16-32. I talked the guy down to $450, now I've got to talk him into taking PayPal!
:D
Jump on it. It's an excellent sander and the one I use almost daily. That's about half price over full retail. Then you can spend some money on sanding belts. That's what your next question will be about.
Good luck.

Matt Clara
11-02-2009, 12:50 PM
I looked at the pdf specs, where it indicates the smallest board it will accept is 1/8 in. If they allow a 1/8 in. board, seems like one could take it down from there some. But it's not perfectly clear, so I wrote Grizzly and asked.

They wrote back and said, while it will accept a 1/8 in. board, it can't do anything with it.

RonS
11-02-2009, 12:56 PM
One thing, you need a dust collector for a drum sander.


Most Definitely!

And one that filters down to at least 1 micron!

Matt Clara
11-02-2009, 01:22 PM
Most Definitely!

And one that filters down to at least 1 micron!

ShopVac with a hepa filter!
(will have to do for now!)

RonS
11-02-2009, 03:57 PM
ShopVac with a hepa filter!
(will have to do for now!)

The Performex will easily overpower the shopvac.

If you decide to go that way, you'll also need an adapter, the Performex has a 4" port.

These would be a good idea as well
http://www.boss-safety.com/shop/north-half-face-respirators-north-7700-series-c-415_9_14_15_1185.html
http://www.boss-safety.com/shop/north-75ffp100-pancake-p100-particulate-filter-p-3427.html?ccCsid=d74f0fd8c0286c8915359b2cdf804ac5


Dust collection is a #1 Priority and they are cheaper than a visit to a hospital.

Matt Clara
11-02-2009, 05:31 PM
The Performex will easily overpower the shopvac.

If you decide to go that way, you'll also need an adapter, the Performex has a 4" port.

These would be a good idea as well
http://www.boss-safety.com/shop/north-half-face-respirators-north-7700-series-c-415_9_14_15_1185.html
http://www.boss-safety.com/shop/north-75ffp100-pancake-p100-particulate-filter-p-3427.html?ccCsid=d74f0fd8c0286c8915359b2cdf804ac5


Dust collection is a #1 Priority and they are cheaper than a visit to a hospital.

Thanks, I will purchase those. I've hooked my five horse, 12 gallon shop vac up to my band saw, which also has a 4 in. port (duct tape--can't find any adaptors locally), and it did a great job. I understand the sander will likely create even more dust.

RonS
11-03-2009, 03:31 AM
Thanks, I will purchase those. I've hooked my five horse, 12 gallon shop vac up to my band saw, which also has a 4 in. port (duct tape--can't find any adaptors locally), and it did a great job. I understand the sander will likely create even more dust.

No Problem.

You will not beleive how much dust a drum sander makes. Woodcraft and Rockler sells adapters. So does Penn State Industries (http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dust-collector-accessories.html).

Duct tape helps in a pinch. Get yourself some 4" clamps that are used for clothes driers (Lowes, Home Depot), they will help to keep things together.

BTW - You do know that it isn't possible for a 5hp motor to run on 115V.

Matt Clara
11-03-2009, 03:48 AM
No Problem.

You will not beleive how much dust a drum sander makes. Woodcraft and Rockler sells adapters. So does Penn State Industries (http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dust-collector-accessories.html).

Duct tape helps in a pinch. Get yourself some 4" clamps that are used for clothes driers (Lowes, Home Depot), they will help to keep things together.

BTW - You do know that it isn't possible for a 5hp motor to run on 115V.

No, I didn't know that. As my shopvac runs, you must mean it's not actually driving five horses?

dave g
11-03-2009, 05:21 AM
There is real horsepower and then there is tool catalog horsepower (not the same thing at all :rolleyes: )

RonS
11-03-2009, 06:04 AM
No, I didn't know that. As my shopvac runs, you must mean it's not actually driving five horses?

That is right, at most a 115v motor can do is around 1.65hp

Matt Clara
11-03-2009, 06:33 AM
The Performex will easily overpower the shopvac.

If you decide to go that way, you'll also need an adapter, the Performex has a 4" port.

These would be a good idea as well
http://www.boss-safety.com/shop/north-half-face-respirators-north-7700-series-c-415_9_14_15_1185.html
http://www.boss-safety.com/shop/north-75ffp100-pancake-p100-particulate-filter-p-3427.html?ccCsid=d74f0fd8c0286c8915359b2cdf804ac5


Dust collection is a #1 Priority and they are cheaper than a visit to a hospital.

Hey Ron, with that North half mask you recommend, would I be able to get something like these organic vapor cartridges (http://www.boss-safety.com/shop/north-7581p100-organic-vapor-cartridge-p100-filter-p-3435.html) and also use that mask for spraying? Or do I need a separate mask for that, too?
Thanks!

RonS
11-03-2009, 06:45 AM
I beleive you have the right one.

Matt Clara
11-03-2009, 11:53 AM
UPDATE (for those who give a toss--I don't blame you if you're not among them): I actually talked the guy into opening a PayPal account. I'll be purchasing the sander later this week. Apparently he had an ebay account, but was looking for an easier way to make purchases. lol.

koalohapaul
11-03-2009, 08:19 PM
Toss!

You'll be happy with the Performax. It's a great machine. Before he bought a wide belt, Derrick Shimizu used to use a Performax for all his thickness sanding. Of course that was when we all produced on a considerably lower volume, but still worth mentioning. He ran his production and custom work for the whole shop on one Performax.

Regarding the mask filters, you should be fine with the P100's. They are rated for nuisance level VOCs and come with a carbon filter sandwiched between the pads. As long as you have good ventilation, you should be fine. If you end up smelling vapor and the mask is sealed well on your face, you may want to look into a better catridge, though. I don't spray regularly anymore, but I mount the P100's on my mask anyway. Just in case I need to jump in the room.

RonS
11-04-2009, 03:35 AM
I don't spray regularly anymore, but I mount the P100's on my mask anyway. Just in case I need to jump in the room.

Just to be clear, you are talking about a "Organic Vapor Cartridge & P100 Filter"

A P100 by itself is unhealthy for spraying.

Matt Clara
11-04-2009, 03:44 AM
UPDATE (for those who give a toss--I don't blame you if you're not among them): I actually talked the guy into opening a PayPal account. I'll be purchasing the sander later this week. Apparently he had an ebay account, but was looking for an easier way to make purchases. lol.

I should add, seller is a very nice guy who has held onto the sander for me, even though other people have offered him the full amount since I made my offer for a reduced amount.

koalohapaul
11-04-2009, 07:54 PM
My mistake. I was thinking of a different mask system. We use the 3M disposable masks with P100 filters. I buy the filters with the layer of carbon, which are good for light spray work. Our dedicated sprayer has a better mask, with a dedicated vapor cartridge and P100 rated pre-filter.

A P100 alone, is indeed, not good for spraying.


Just to be clear, you are talking about a "Organic Vapor Cartridge & P100 Filter"

A P100 by itself is unhealthy for spraying.