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specialmike
11-10-2009, 04:03 PM
I recently joined an armor building forum and they have such restrictions. I can elaborate later on, just wondering what you guys think.

UkuleleHill
11-10-2009, 04:33 PM
We discussed things like this in the Town Hall. I don't think we will have any but there is a new section for new members to introduce themselves (http://ukuleleunderground.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=38) and also I think there will be some selling restrictions made, but really we want the board to be welcoming with the Aloha Spirit. I think any true restrictions would be a henderance to that...

deach
11-10-2009, 04:50 PM
I recently joined an armor building forum and they have such restrictions. I can elaborate later on, just wondering what you guys think.

how did you feel when you came up on these restrictions on the other forum?

UKISOCIETY
11-10-2009, 04:53 PM
how did you feel when you came up on these restrictions on the other forum?

I'm sorry. But this type of question isn't allowed on this forum. I refer you to Rule 2.

:rulez:

-moderator

buddhuu
11-10-2009, 10:36 PM
[...] just wondering what you guys think.

Nah. ;)

beeejums
11-11-2009, 12:37 AM
I recently joined an armor building forum and they have such restrictions. I can elaborate later on, just wondering what you guys think.

I have signed up for such a forum (with restrictions... I've never built armor out of anything but cardboard boxes, and it will probably stay that way FOR EVER), but after signing up so I could search, I never came back with my questions (it was a Linux forum) since

1) they were so restrictive
2) it didn't seem like a very friendly place anyway
3) I only have enough Linux knowledge to get myself into trouble (which was proven when I tried to dual boot on my wife's computer... I still haven't heard the end of it :()

So I wouldn't do it. This is the only internet forum I've ever wanted to be "involved" in, and I think we should keep it that way.

seeso
11-11-2009, 12:56 AM
I don't think it's a good idea.

specialmike
11-11-2009, 03:37 AM
how did you feel when you came up on these restrictions on the other forum?

I don't mind the restrictions. I feel that it allows for the new armor builders, in our case ukulele players, to learn about forum, techniques that are already present on the forum, and the community that is here. This way, you don't get constant repeats in threads, such as my c string is buzzing, even though there is a sticky. I can't post new threads on the armor building forum basically, but I can view everything and read everything on the forums. They even had a "new member" video orientation. I didn't feel that the restrictions made the forum feel unwelcoming or anything, it gives time for the newer members to learn the rules of the forum and whatnot. I'm all for the aloha spirit and welcoming our new comers but they should be well aware of our rules and our UU customs before jumping into our community.

It just makes sense, you're a new member, your FIRST post should be in that "introduce yourself" thread (and I know we have one, but some people just don't do it) and they should be reading and getting to know the community before they go off and start asking questions that have already been asked before. The only thread I can post in is the "noob forum" on that armor building website.

The site is 405th.com (www.405th.com) if you want to check it out to see what I mean. Mayhaps it's not the best layout for an ukulele forum, but I feel that their restrictions have good reason, esp. since everyone starts out in the same place here on UU. And we shouldn't incorporate an exact replica of it onto the UU forums, but there might be some properties that we can copy to better UU operations.
But whatever, just some food for thought, just thought I'd let you know what I've found to be helpful for other forums.

UkuleleHill
11-11-2009, 04:00 AM
You can watch the town hall here:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2530465

We chatted about this kind of thing there, and we just don't feel it is a good idea. Ryan did create a new member section (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=38), and a thread with some info about the forums and constructive things in it here (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21500). Check it out, Good things are happening here! :)

ukeshale
11-11-2009, 04:28 AM
I think it's great that you brought an idea to the table like this, Mike :) It might well work on a different website but probably not here.

Part of the charm of UU is it's welcoming nature and people feeling like they can instantly become part of the community. That's why I really liked Brick's recent 'Contest for Beginners (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20732)'. I think people are going to be inclined to return if they feel like they're part of the place after being here for a week or so. Ego's should be left at the door and we should all be here on a level playing field that's designed to help eachother along. I don't want people being afraid to ask questions or being worried that they're going to insult people by not using the right (n)etiquette

The people who have been here for a while should help newcomers by setting a good example and showing them what UU's all about. That's the way forward ;)

CountryMouse
11-11-2009, 04:33 AM
Just a comment about rules and such: long ago, when I was first going to get on the 'Net, when there was still Pine and Elm for mail and Lynx for browsing, Cat'r set down the rules I should know before even attempting to get started on Usenet: read the threads, don't just jump in, don't type in CAPS, and a bunch of other things that make sense, really.

But it terrified me, because I thought if I put a foot wrong, I'd be flamed. Badly. The way he presented the 'Net to me, I felt it was a very scary and inhospitable place where, if you were very very careful, you might be able to get some useful information.

I didn't start the right way here on UU. The first thing I did was post a rather nervous thread about my old plastic picks from the '70's and the weird vinegar-y smell they had developed. I did post it in the Ukulele Beginners forum, so I did that part right. Everyone was very helpful and kind, and I felt very grateful for their help.

So I guess rules are useful since things can get out of hand; but I know that in some situations, they just discourage people from even hanging around long enough to get the courage up to post.

Just my :2cents:

CountryMouse

JT_Ukes
11-11-2009, 04:38 AM
I don't think anyone should be allowed to post anything until that have posted at least 10 posts. Maybe more.

seeso
11-11-2009, 04:41 AM
I don't think anyone should be allowed to post anything until that have posted at least 10 posts. Maybe more.

How can they post 10 posts if they can't post anything? :confused:

Ukulele JJ
11-11-2009, 04:46 AM
Let x equal the harm caused by newbs sometimes posting newbishly, as is the case currently.

Let y equal the harm caused by imposing newb restrictions, therefore reducing new membership and diminishing, overall, the relatively free and open culture of the forum.

x < y

'nuff said


JJ

JT_Ukes
11-11-2009, 04:48 AM
How can they post 10 posts if they can't post anything? :confused:

:)

exactly, if that's to restrictive.. then maybe 5 posts?

JT_Ukes
11-11-2009, 04:48 AM
Let x equal the harm caused by newbs sometimes posting newbishly, as is the case currently.

Let y equal the harm caused by imposing newb restrictions, therefore reducing new membership and diminishing, overall, the relatively free and open culture of the forum.

x < y

'nuff said


JJ

I agree .

specialmike
11-11-2009, 04:53 AM
I didn't know you guys had had a meeting on November 9th, I was at work.. so as a result, I missed the chance to throw my input in, just forget about it. JJ's math isn't the most convincing but just fuh-get about it.

haolejohn
11-11-2009, 05:18 AM
I don't think anyone should be allowed to post anything until that have posted at least 10 posts. Maybe more.

LOL!!! That was too funny.

UkuleleHill
11-11-2009, 05:30 AM
I didn't know you guys had had a meeting on November 9th, I was at work.. so as a result, I missed the chance to throw my input in, just forget about it. JJ's math isn't the most convincing but just fuh-get about it.

No worries! :) S'all good!

thisnthat
11-11-2009, 05:33 AM
This way, you don't get constant repeats in threads, such as my c string is buzzing, even though there is a sticky.
That's kinda the way forums work though. If you stick around any forum long enough you will hear the same questions over and over. At least now with the separate sub-forums people can ignore those questions if they want to.

As for the part in the town meeting regarding the trading forum. I couldn't talk in the chat because I wasn't logged in and had to go to bed anyway but I wanted to add my $0.02.
Escrow for newbies is bad idea in my opinion. That seemed to be the majority opinion anyway but just thought I'd add my thoughts to the mix. We don't really use that here in the UK and someone asking for payment using a system I've barely heard of would really put me off buy or selling.
On another forum I'm on they have a rule of a minimum of 25 posts and a months membership before they are allowed to post in the trading forum. Reduces the number of people just passing through to scam.

UkuleleHill
11-11-2009, 05:39 AM
Escrow for newbies is bad idea in my opinion. That seemed to be the majority opinion anyway but just thought I'd add my thoughts to the mix. We don't really use that here in the UK and someone asking for payment using a system I've barely heard of would really put me off buy or selling.

Yep I think that was the consensus decision :)


On another forum I'm on they have a rule of a minimum of 25 posts and a months membership before they are allowed to post in the trading forum. Reduces the number of people just passing through to scam.

Yeah I think there will be more restrictions here soon on selling... Stay tuned! :)

DaveVisi
11-11-2009, 06:22 AM
How can they post 10 posts if they can't post anything? :confused:

The way this works is that you can't ORIGINATE a new thread until you've at least participated in existing threads first. It's hard to enforce though. As soon as they learn they can't start a thread you get a bunch of one word replies.

I would definitely support a post count minimum before using the "For Sale/Trade" areas. This is pretty much a service between friends. If all they want to do is get your money, they should pay for advertising like any other sponsor.

sukie
11-11-2009, 07:20 AM
Regarding the repeated threads about new strings and such: How about not reading the thread if it bothers you?

I was once a very timid newb myself -- go figure -- and I had A LOT to learn about the ukulele. Still do as a matter of fact. Anyway -- I have no problem with new people asking the same questions over and over and over again. Is it really so horrible for people to ask? As Rayan talked about the generations last night it struck me. I've been here since April '08, so I'm sort of 3rd generation maybe? String questions just are a topic I may steer clear of -- but not always. The second generation can now be the "leaders" and answer the questions. And so on and so on.

I'm afraid if what can be asked is limited, it'll become quite dead around here.

That's just me. And, I'm done.

Sukie

nohandles
11-11-2009, 11:23 AM
So why not just take the - noob as you call us under your experienced wing and get us on track. I talk in 5 other forums under- nohandles one is bluegrassbassplace.com if you want to look. There are ways to communicate fears and not run possible new usefully and contributing members off. I never intended to cause any problems and in fact I lurked for a month before joining. My intention was to find a great Uke forum to talk on and contribute. Enough said for now. But I'm here for the long haul as long as you's guys will have me. Doug

sukie
11-11-2009, 11:25 AM
So why not just take the - noob as you call us under your experienced wing and get us on track. I talk in 5 other forums under- nohandles one is bluegrassbassplace.com if you want to look. There are ways to communicate fears and not run possible new usefully and contributing members off. I never intended to cause any problems and in fact I lurked for a month before joining. My intention was to find a great Uke forum to talk on and contribute. Enough said for now. But I'm here for the long haul as long as you's guys will have me. Doug

I'm glad you are giving us another chance.:)

nohandles
11-11-2009, 01:15 PM
I'm glad you are giving us another chance.:)


Me too. I'm having a great time here now. Doug

davidp
11-14-2009, 10:35 PM
I administer forums for a software company and we had to establish a restricted 'new member' group to deal with a serious problem.

As it was originally set up, members were allowed to use code in their profiles. We discovered, mainly by accident, that we had lots of porn spammers signing up just so they could fill their profiles with porn and links to porn and other spam.

They never posted, just did an HTML profile full of very distasteful garbage. They were then linking to that profile from all over the place. Some of our new members had hundreds of thousands of visits and some pretty distasteful crap in their profiles.

Apart from hunting those profiles down and removing them and the members, we had to either stop all code in everyones profiles and signatures, or set up a group with signature and profile limitations.

So now we have a new member group with very limited rights until they have posted 10 times. Our moderators are pretty good at finding those persistent new members who try to post nonsense for 10 posts to gain the increased rights of the member group and our profile spam situation has stopped.

Now we just need to deal with the apparently genuine posts that have white text spam links hidden in them for the search engine spiders :rolleyes:

davidp

SuperSecretBETA
11-14-2009, 10:43 PM
I just thought of this, and I thought it would be cool if it were even possible. What if they had to type out some basic etiquette rules when they first sign up? It would be an image or flash where they could not copy/paste the rules.

Here's another idea. Provide an agreement of rules that cannot be agreed upon until 100 seconds pass, so they'd have to wait and could read while they wait at least (if the typing idea isn't available).

davidp
11-14-2009, 11:58 PM
Is it really such a problem that new members need any more than possibly a link to a behaviour thread or a search function?

:rulez:

davidp

freedive135
11-15-2009, 08:06 AM
What strings shounld I put on my Kala tenor?

Which uke should I buy next?

I figured I would ask these here in stead of starting new posts!!!!


I am all for the everyone in mind set but....

I am a member of a bunch of forums (everything from sailing to scuba to Tiki)that restrict new memebers "starting new threads" till they have replyed/posted in existing threads and it seems to work for them.
I am just saying.

I do skip over the what string threads unless it names a Uke that I own and have tried several different strings on. Shoot I skip over alot of threads here anymore.....

SuperSecretBETA
11-15-2009, 09:30 AM
Is it really such a problem that new members need any more than possibly a link to a behaviour thread or a search function?

:rulez:

davidp

If we can prevent certain instances of misbehavior by letting them know UU's mission beforehand, I am all for it. We would still be able to link and remind people of UU etiquette if things happen. Tell them about the aloha spirit before the problems arise. Actually, I'm all for including current members as well as new members to be required to type or read rules of behavior.

Proactive is greater than reactive. This would provide for the welfare and safety of the UU community. :)

davidp
11-15-2009, 10:22 AM
IMO, new members, or 'new to forums' members, need guidance and explanations, not intimidation and restrictions. Most are reluctant to take a step too far when they first start posting anyway, and most will be reasonable enough to accept guidance by others if they mess up.

I think if people try to remember that communication usually consists mostly of audible and visual signals, and typing words may be less than 20% of what is conveyed in a face to face discussion, they will realise that allowances will need to be made, by everyone, all the time.

Flaming anyone should not be tolerated (however much one thinks it is deserved), and most boards can send members to the time-out corner for varying lenghts of time (temporary bans).

Maybe mods (and other long standing members) could have links to common features or threads in their sigs, as I am sure some do already. Just a post saying 'check the links in my signature' would help some.

davidp

JT_Ukes
11-15-2009, 11:02 AM
UU staff Should make a video expaling the rules and stuff..

Film it in the old 1950's instructional movie style ! Call it


"Your Forum and You!"

"A noobs guide to happy posting."


it has to be in black and white and the voice over guy has to be over the top!

Dooo it! DOOOO ITTTT!

JT

seeso
11-15-2009, 11:05 AM
The issues that were addressed in the town hall meeting did not stem from noobs' ignorance. We want to make this place more welcome to new people, not less.

JT_Ukes
11-15-2009, 11:11 AM
The issues that were addressed in the town hall meeting did not stem from noobs' ignorance. We want to make this place more welcome to new people, not less.

I agree. The movie should be done with toung firmly stuck in cheek!

:)

freedive135
11-15-2009, 11:26 AM
UU staff Should make a video expaling the rules and stuff..

Film it in the old 1950's instructional movie style ! Call it


"Your Forum and You!"

"A noobs guide to happy posting."


it has to be in black and white and the voice over guy has to be over the top!

Dooo it! DOOOO ITTTT!

JT

:agree:

Have Aldrine do a joining/posting on UU lesson video to watch before you can post instead of that "read this, click here mission statment!!!
Have Manny do the voice over parts and make it so EVERYONE has to watch it including ME, leave the Noobie portion out cuz from what I've seen it's not them that are normaly the first to be rude!!!!!

SuperSecretBETA
11-15-2009, 11:31 AM
Someone should make a smiley with Manny holding a "be nice" sign... LOL

UkuleleHill
11-15-2009, 11:55 AM
If we can prevent certain instances of misbehavior by letting them know UU's mission beforehand, I am all for it. We would still be able to link and remind people of UU etiquette if things happen. Tell them about the aloha spirit before the problems arise. Actually, I'm all for including current members as well as new members to be required to type or read rules of behavior.

Proactive is greater than reactive. This would provide for the welfare and safety of the UU community. :)

In the new member intro section there is a thread that Rayan started called "New Members Read this Thread! (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21500)"

All the things you listed above were addressed in that thread.

SuperSecretBETA
11-15-2009, 12:17 PM
In the new member intro section there is a thread that Rayan started called "New Members Read this Thread! (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21500)"

All the things you listed above were addressed in that thread.

Do they voluntarily click it? Maybe it could be taken a little further. It would be cool if that was the first thing they saw or maybe an automatic first PM or e-mail which explains it. I'm just making some suggestions. I don't really find too many problems with new members.

itsme
11-15-2009, 12:19 PM
UU staff Should make a video expaling the rules and stuff..

Film it in the old 1950's instructional movie style ! Call it


"Your Forum and You!"

"A noobs guide to happy posting."


it has to be in black and white and the voice over guy has to be over the top!

Dooo it! DOOOO ITTTT!
Been done. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9q2jNjOPdk

Doctroid
11-15-2009, 04:17 PM
IMO, new members, or 'new to forums' members, need guidance and explanations, not intimidation and restrictions. Most are reluctant to take a step too far when they first start posting anyway, and most will be reasonable enough to accept guidance by others if they mess up.

Emphatically agree. Forcing new members to jump through hoops before they are granted the privilege of being treated as an equal would be an enormous mistake. That sends a message: "You're not welcome here until you prove you're good enough for us."

The present setup informs new users well enough, and welcomes them warmly, and if first mistakes are gently corrected and repeat infractions are not tolerated, then I see no reason to impose restrictions or requirements.

ritzer012
11-15-2009, 04:32 PM
Regarding the repeated threads about new strings and such: How about not reading the thread if it bothers you?

I was once a very timid newb myself -- go figure -- and I had A LOT to learn about the ukulele. Still do as a matter of fact. Anyway -- I have no problem with new people asking the same questions over and over and over again. Is it really so horrible for people to ask? As Rayan talked about the generations last night it struck me. I've been here since April '08, so I'm sort of 3rd generation maybe? String questions just are a topic I may steer clear of -- but not always. The second generation can now be the "leaders" and answer the questions. And so on and so on.

I'm afraid if what can be asked is limited, it'll become quite dead around here.

That's just me. And, I'm done.

Sukie


i agree sukie. the problem isnt the new members. it's how older members treat new members when they get annoyed with their questions. and then the bullies blame their own behavior on the new members not knowing the rules of the forum.

if you want to help the person out ona repeat thread then go right ahead.

if you just want to pick on them and condescendingly direct them to the "newb" threads because you get off on acting like "post police"...do everyone involved a favor and let someone else reply to it.

SuperSecretBETA
11-15-2009, 05:59 PM
Emphatically agree. Forcing new members to jump through hoops before they are granted the privilege of being treated as an equal would be an enormous mistake. That sends a message: "You're not welcome here until you prove you're good enough for us."

The present setup informs new users well enough, and welcomes them warmly, and if first mistakes are gently corrected and repeat infractions are not tolerated, then I see no reason to impose restrictions or requirements.

I can see how wording it wrong could send a bad "know your place newb" message, but I don't see how a friendly message of how to enjoy the forum would send that sort of message. It's just a minor method of prevention. Why wait for mistakes when you can prevent some of them? It wouldn't just be for new members either. For current members, it would be a friendly reminder to everyone on what UU is about. I think it works in small scale as a forum.


i agree sukie. the problem isnt the new members. it's how older members treat new members when they get annoyed with their questions. and then the bullies blame their own behavior on the new members not knowing the rules of the forum.

if you want to help the person out ona repeat thread then go right ahead.

if you just want to pick on them and condescendingly direct them to the "newb" threads because you get off on acting like "post police"...do everyone involved a favor and let someone else reply to it.

I've seen it both ways from new and old. Sometimes I sense a gang mentality around here. Displease one displeases many, and soon everyone wants a piece. I've thought a few times about leaving because of the negative attitudes I've seen. I already went on hiatus once when things were good and things were totally different when I came back (less stellar than before). Disagreements can be better stated in a respectful manner. Aloha spirit all the way.

nohandles
11-16-2009, 01:13 AM
It still comes to one thing Just play nice in the sand box. Its easy its and its a choice. If a post rubs you the wrong don't read it and don't answer it. PM and guide the person if yuo need to. Number 1 thing we are here to have fun, learn and promote the love of Ukuleles. It shouldn't be so hard.

specialmike
11-16-2009, 05:26 AM
just start a vote/poll if it's such a pertinent issue. Arguing won't get us anywhere. Majority rule by an additional 20&#37; should settle it.

seeso
11-16-2009, 06:06 AM
just start a vote/poll if it's such a pertinent issue. Arguing won't get us anywhere. Majority rule by an additional 20% should settle it.

That's the thing, I don't think it's a pertinent issue. Most of us do not agree with the implementation of noob restrictions.

ukeshale
11-16-2009, 06:15 AM
If someone doesn't want to help a new member who's asked a previously asked question then just ignore it - there's plenty of people here who don't mind helping out.

Letting new members make mistakes gives the opportunity to other members to point them in the right direction - aka giving them the opportunity to contribute to the community (providing it's done and worded in the right way)

It was an interesting idea and it's great that you're thinking of ways to improve the forum but I don't think it'll work here on UU. The warm welcomes and guidance is what makes this place great. Let's allow people to get involved in the community right from day one.

hoosierhiver
11-16-2009, 06:59 AM
How about pledge beanies for noobs?

freedive135
11-16-2009, 07:11 AM
How about pledge beanies for noobs?

I'd take one :drool: can it have a little propler too???

CountryMouse
11-16-2009, 08:25 AM
It still comes to one thing Just play nice in the sand box. Its easy its and its a choice. If a post rubs you the wrong don't read it and don't answer it. PM and guide the person if yuo need to. Number 1 thing we are here to have fun, learn and promote the love of Ukuleles. It shouldn't be so hard.

Exactly. I took someone's post the wrong way a while back and answered it in a slightly snarky way. A friend of this person's PM'd me in a friendly nice way to let me know that person wasn't anything like what I'd thought. I went out on the boards and posted an apology!!

It's so easy to take things the wrong way, but a kind and friendly (and private) nudge in the right direction makes things a lot better than hard, cold, negative rules, etc.

CountryMouse

CountryMouse
11-16-2009, 08:26 AM
How about pledge beanies for noobs?


I'd take one :drool: can it have a little propler too???

Ooo ooo! Me too!

CountryMouse

nohandles
11-16-2009, 08:36 AM
That's the thing, I don't think it's a pertinent issue. Most of us do not agree with the implementation of noob restrictions.

Well spoken Seeso. I think this should end this thread, whats ya think gang?
Doug

pithaya9
11-16-2009, 09:38 AM
That's the thing, I don't think it's a pertinent issue. Most of us do not agree with the implementation of noob restrictions.

I agree Seeso. No noob restrictions, we just need to help them. That's what makes UU so special.

UkuleleHill
11-16-2009, 11:21 AM
That's the thing, I don't think it's a pertinent issue. Most of us do not agree with the implementation of noob restrictions.

:agree::agree:

UkuleleHill
11-16-2009, 11:23 AM
I agree Seeso. No noob restrictions, we just need to help them. That's what makes UU so special.

Ooo ooo Yeah I agree with this too! I think the peace has been said now right?

ukestang
11-16-2009, 12:20 PM
I am a noob here and have felt most welcome, and have learned so much in a short time. As far as restrictions, well, our society has become so rule and restriction concious that it is bordering on oppressive. I find the Aloha spirit here most refreshing. I have quit visiting several forums due to constant flaming and smart a$$ comments from mods and editors. I have not seen that here. I am most impressed by the diversity of people from all over the world here, sharing, getting along, and caring about one another. The UN could take a lesson from the UU. I'll shut up and get a beer.
Peace, Love and Uke & Roll.

sukie
11-16-2009, 12:28 PM
I am a noob here and have felt most welcome, and have learned so much in a short time. As far as restrictions, well, our society has become so rule and restriction concious that it is bordering on oppressive. I find the Aloha spirit here most refreshing. I have quit visiting several forums due to constant flaming and smart a$$ comments from mods and editors. I have not seen that here. I am most impressed by the diversity of people from all over the world here, sharing, getting along, and caring about one another. The UN could take a lesson from the UU. I'll shut up and get a beer.
Peace, Love and Uke & Roll.

I give a +1 for that. Thanks for the warm fuzzies.:D

UkuleleHill
11-16-2009, 12:46 PM
I give a +1 for that. Thanks for the warm fuzzies.:D

:agree::agree:

seeso
11-16-2009, 01:00 PM
I think this topic has been discussed enough. Thanks for your input, everyone.