Weird question about grammar...

Skitzic

Skitzic

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So in my ukulele researching, I posted on a few boards I stumbled across. I always typed 'a ukulele'. I got ripped apart on the one forum because it should have read 'an ook-oo-lay-li'.

The entire thread turned into a fight about it. My question is, which is correct? Are they both correct?

AH! I ended up buying the Lanikai NK-T tenor by the way...
 
It depends.

There are two general approaches to grammar: prescriptive and descriptive. A prescriptive approach is one in which authoritative experts prescribe proper usage. Descriptive approaches describe the ways language is commonly used.

According to a strict prescriptive approach, an 'ukulele is proper. The word 'ukulele is Hawaiian in origin and should be spoken with the original Hawaiian pronunciation, ook-uh-leh-leh.

However, a descriptive grammar would state that a ukulele is also acceptable, since the word has been almost exclusively pronounced yook-uh-lay-lee in the mainland for a very, very long time.

In a phone conversation with MusicGuyMic, a Hawaiian, he told me "I don't care how you pronounce it as long as I can sell you one!" I'll echo that sentiment and speak for the majority here: most of us don't care how you pronounce it as long as you love it and play the living heck out of it. I like grammar and language, but I also think that grammar snobs are mean. Anyone who uses grammar rules as a way of ripping someone apart is acting like a real douche canoe.
 
Skitzic said:
So in my ukulele researching, I posted on a few boards I stumbled across. I always typed 'a ukulele'. I got ripped apart on the one forum because it should have read 'an ook-oo-lay-li'.

The entire thread turned into a fight about it. My question is, which is correct? Are they both correct?

AH! I ended up buying the Lanikai NK-T tenor by the way...
Click to expand...

Congrats on your Kanikai. Now, I could be wrong on this but I'm pretty sure that ook-oo-lay-li is how your pronounce ukulele. Ukulele is spelled just like you've been spelling it. Like I said, I could be wrong, but I've never seen it actually spelled like your pronounce it. :p
 
I live and learn.

I'd noticed the ' thing but never understood what was going on with it. That's very interesting. Thanks for the link, Kanaka916. :)

I'll try to remember to spell it the original way in future, but my memory is almost as bad as my playing.
 
Well put, RevWill. I just wanted to make two points.

Point #1:

Even a prescriptivist might allow for the "yoo-kuh-lay-lee" pronunciation, if they recognized the "English" word as being separate from the "Hawai'ian" word. That is, if they saw "ukulele" as a loanword of foreign origin, rather than as the foreign word itself.

For example, most prescriptivists probably wouldn't get on an English-speaker's case for pronouncing the capital of France as "Pair-iss", even though it would be pronounced "Pah-ree" in its language of origin. They allow for a "correct" English pronunciation that's different from the "correct" French pronunciation.

Actually, as I understand it, a prescriptive approach doesn't necessarily dictate a particular pronunciation at all. It merely says that whatever pronunciation is given is the single, one "correct" one, and that all others are "wrong." A prescriptivist could just as easily champion "yoo-kuh-lay-leh", I suppose. (But does pointing out that distinction make me a prescriptivist? :uhoh: )


Point #2:

"Douche canoe" is an awesome phrase.


JJ
 
Good Reply Rev Wil. Somehow "an ukulele" just does not sound right to me either. Skitzic You do get taken to task every now and again. The problem is ( and maybe it is not a problem) that there are some old salts who see the same questions appear from enthusiasts who want to put their paddle in the water as well, and that, or something else irritates them, as the topic has been discussed a few times already (well before the time you and I have joined). The people who organize and control this BB, as well as in other BB's have a FAQ section, and perhaps this question + answer needs to be added. I did try the FAQ facility and typed ukulele spelling but it did not come up with a reply. I am not picking out anybody, but the point I am making is that for as long as I have a hole in my arse, these questions will be asked. Don't discourage these people, they are keen to participate. Elmers are needed !
 
Part of a haole becoming a kama'aina is learning to pronounce words correctly. Ukulele is one. Hawaii and Molokai are other examples; Ha-vi-e, Molo-ki-e, etc. BTW, IMHO one cannot learn to speak 'local' (pigeon). It's something one is brought up speaking.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I figure as long as I enjoy playing it and I stay out of the islands I'll be fine.

Thanks again!
 
Skitzic said:
So in my ukulele researching, I posted on a few boards I stumbled across. I always typed 'a ukulele'. I got ripped apart on the one forum because it should have read 'an ook-oo-lay-li'.

The entire thread turned into a fight about it. My question is, which is correct? Are they both correct?

AH! I ended up buying the Lanikai NK-T tenor by the way...
Click to expand...

Ladies and gentelmen, the question isn't about how to read or say or type "ukulele" but what article should come in front of ukulele. Should an A or an An come in front of ukulele when referencing it. I'm no grammar snob (Ian, Ichadwick, is the expert there:)) but normally when a word begins with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u and sometimes y) An is used as an article except when the word begins with a u as in unicorn. Ukulele is not pronounced with a you sound it is actually with an oo sound. So I would use the AN article instead of the A article. But then again I don't know nothing about none of this grammar stuff.
 
My own take on it is the same as it is with another instrument that I play - the bodhran, an Irish frame drum. Out of respect for the tradition that gave me the instrument I try to stick to original pronunciations and spellings where possible. In the case of the bodhran there is supposed to be an accent over the "a" which I include when hand writing the word, but I don't know how to type it.

Like I say, I try but I sometimes forget, or get it wrong.

Many of the cultures we encounter when getting involved in regional music and its instruments struggle to preserve their languages. My choice is to have a try at referring to the instruments etc in those languages when I can, especially if the audience for my words is likely to include people from those cultures.


@JJ, interesting point about Paris. When speaking with a French person I would certainly use my attempt at the French pronunciation of Paris.

Routinely with friends whose first language is not English I greet them in their own languages (where they have had the patience to teach me!). I find it fun and interesting, and people really seem to appreciate it.

Similarly with new UU members, if I can find out how to welcome them in their local language then I have a go.

I just like different people and different languages.
 
haolejohn said:
Ladies and gentelmen, the question isn't about how to read or say or type "ukulele" but what article should come in front of ukulele. Should an A or an An come in front of ukulele when referencing it. I'm no grammar snob (Ian, Ichadwick, is the expert there:)) but normally when a word begins with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u and sometimes y) An is used as an article except when the word begins with a u as in unicorn.
Click to expand...

I believe that the "rule" is that one would use the article "an" when a word begins with a vowel sound. That's a different thing from beginning with a letter that's a vowel.

For example, "honor" doesn't begin with a vowel. But you'd still say "it's an honor", because it begins with a vowel sound (the 'h' is silent). And, as you pointed out, some words that do start with a vowel letter--like "unicorn"--nonetheless begin on a consonant sound, and would therefore use the article "a".

Which means that the question of which definite article to use in front of ukulele actually is a question about pronunciation.

JJ
 
haolejohn said:
Ladies and gentelmen, the question isn't about how to read or say or type "ukulele" but what article should come in front of ukulele. Should an A or an An come in front of ukulele when referencing it. I'm no grammar snob (Ian, Ichadwick, is the expert there:)) but normally when a word begins with a vowel (a, e, i, o, u and sometimes y) An is used as an article except when the word begins with a u as in unicorn. Ukulele is not pronounced with a you sound it is actually with an oo sound. So I would use the AN article instead of the A article. But then again I don't know nothing about none of this grammar stuff.
Click to expand...

what about the `okina? lol.

the bestest most natro kine way fo say um stay "one `ukulele" cheeee
 
Ukulele JJ said:
Which means that the question of which definite article to use in front of ukulele actually is a question about pronunciation.
Click to expand...

agreed! reading through this thread, I realized that whenever I saw "an ukulele" I was pronouncing it oo-koo-le-li in my head, but when I saw "a ukulele" I pronounced it "yoo-kuh-le-li." so it really is in the article, whatever you put in front of it changes how I say it...but I normally say "a yoo-kuh-le-li"
 
Why use the English indefinite article when you can use the Hawaiian, which I believe is he ukulele. It's got a very cool and catchy sound to it, too. Perhaps the yookalele and ookulele contingents will get behind it, world peace will break out and we can all get back to sitting down and playing music together. That was the original plan, right?

I can already hear Neil Young singing "He, he, my, my."
 
uke5417 said:
Why use the English indefinite article when you can use the Hawaiian, which I believe is he ukulele. It's got a very cool and catchy sound to it, too. Perhaps the yookalele and ookulele contingents will get behind it, world peace will break out and we can all get back to sitting down and playing music together. That was the original plan, right?

I can already hear Neil Young singing "He, he, my, my."
Click to expand...

`ae, pololei. he `ukulele (a 'ukulele), ka `ukulele (the `ukulele), na `ukulele (the `ukulele plural with kahako over the second u)
 
I'd say if you were on a forum where they jumped down your throat over spelling and/or grammar? RUN FOR THE HILLS! Sounds pretty snobby on their part to me - who cares - just play the damn thing :O)
 
1014 said:
what about the `okina? lol.

the bestest most natro kine way fo say um stay "one `ukulele" cheeee
Click to expand...

Seems like most do not use the 'okina. Even the road signs in Hawai'i don't use the correct spelling. LOL
 
Ukulele JJ said:
I believe that the "rule" is that one would use the article "an" when a word begins with a vowel sound. That's a different thing from beginning with a letter that's a vowel.
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winnah!

The "an" construct exists to keep you from stripping a vocal cord when you shift gears between the indefinite article and a noun that starts with a vowel sound. (Short U as in unicorn is the exception, because it sounds like a Y.) Try "a island" and see how awkward it feels. Whether or not you'd use it with ukulele depends on how you pronounce it, and I'm not re-opening that can of worms.

French has a similar gadget where you stick a "T" in the middle of certain interrogative verb formations.

--Mark
 
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