Experi'ukes.....chasing tone

It seems like it's been a long, cold, wet winter. Spent my free days in the shop cleaning, re-arranging, built some shelves' added some lights and some circuits. Spent evenings reading up on how to build a better sounding instrument. From builders' websites to forums on the internetz to books, I tried to find 'the secret' to great sound. As far as I can tell, turns out there isn't one. The materials themselves, their dimensions, thicknesses, placement and a plethora of other variables leads me to believe the 'secret answer' is...it depends.

So rather than glueing up another set of beautiful koa and *hoping* it works out, I thought it might be a good idea to build a series of experimental 'ukuleles out of cheap or free materials I already have laying around the shop. I sliced up a bunch of basswood left over from years ago and yesterday I strung up experi'uke #0. It turned out a success, I think, for the purpose that it was built.

It's got a basswood body, linings and neck, EIR fingerboard on (my first) bolt on neck, bloodwood bridge, Aquila concert strings and weighs in at just under a pound (15.39 ounces). It's a concert pineapple, 14 frets to the body with a 15-1/8" scale. It sounds ok, I guess, using a RadioShack decibel meter, it has more volume than any other 'uke I have. It didn't sound all that loud to the player so I free-handed in an SSP with the Dremel, and it does now. It doesn't sound spectacular, but it sounds like an 'ukulele, and that's what I was hoping for. I strung it up 2-1/2 days after I started cutting wood.

Next chapter: Experi'ukes #1 - 4

And there's your problem - basswood. It is about as far from a tonewood as you can get so if it sounds OK I'm not sure what you are trying to say to us or achieve. Neat design but massive bridge and a bit 'narrow' for the classic pineapple shape. I never 'test' my ukulele. I always get someone else to 'hear' them because that is the way it is meant to be. Hence my antipathy towards soundports... great stuff. Looking forward to 2-4.

Experi'ukes #1 - 4

My goal with the experimental series is to try to begin to get an idea of how changing some of the variables affects the sound of the instruments. The method is to build pairs of 'ukuleles changing only one variable (as best as I can) and see how the sound differs. With #1 - 4, I am really going to extremes, but I really want to get 'ukes that sound different from each other, and see if I can dial in the sound from there. So far I've braced up two tops and 4 backs and bent two sets of sides.

#1 will be a thicker, lightly braced top with a thin, lightly braced back
#2 will be a thicker, lightly braced top with a thick, massively braced back
#3 will be a thinner, massively braced top with a thin, lightly braced back, and
# 4 will be a thinner, massively braced top with a thick, massively braced back

I'm hoping to get by using only two bolt on necks for the entire series, just switching them as necessary. The basswood seems a little soft for a neck, especially at the cross dowel pressure point, so I'll make two more out of spanish cedar or mahogany. I've had the basswood neck off and on a few times and it seems like this part is do-able. I think I need to install the bolt a little lower, though, to help with the heel lifting from the bottom of the body.

They're not expected to be *good looking* 'ukes, and so far #0 living up to that expectation. I don't really expect they're going to sound all that great, either, I just want them all to sound different from each other. I cut up enough sets for 10 experi'ukes, and as I go on, I'll try to cover as many variables as I can, and narrow down what sounds better. My pipe bending is already getting better, but this basswood bends like butter.

By the end of this run, I hope to have learned something about how to affect the tone of the instrument, if I don't, I will have at least learned that. Even though I'm not giving a lot of attention to detail, I'm hoping just having hands on wood will improve my skills a bit, too.

I'd love to hear some ideas of other variables to try. As I plod through this, I'll try to post what I've learned, if anything. Wish me luck!

Steve

Pete Howlett said:

And there's your problem - basswood. It is about as far from a tonewood as you can get so if it sounds OK I'm not sure what you are trying to say to us or achieve. Neat design but massive bridge and a bit 'narrow' for the classic pineapple shape. I never 'test' my ukulele. I always get someone else to 'hear' them because that is the way it is meant to be. Hence my antipathy towards soundports... great stuff. Looking forward to 2-4.

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Pete, your right about the bridge, it's tenor size, about 1" X 4". For the next ones I'll try to shrink it down some. I used Scott Antes pineapple plan from LMI. I've got the HanaLima pineapple plan also, maybe I can make that one of the variables. I know what you mean about the basswood, it's very floppy wood, but it's easy to work and was free. These will be birdhouses or next winter's heat when I'm done...I just don't want to burn through my mahogany or koa doing experiments like this. And, Pete, thanks for chiming in, I always appreciate your input, sometimes it just takes me 6 months too figure it out. You once wrote "build light and build well", I finally actually understand that now, I'm trying to work out what that is and how to do it.

Steve, I don't know how far you want to go with this. Even if you found detectable differences between your different bracing schemes you still have to ask whether and to what degree your results would apply in other circumstances, for example with other woods, shapes, sizes...

Nonetheless, you may get some confirmation of what others out there have been saying the whole time. So if Pete says "build light" and you go and brace your uke like a castle door then I wouldn't be surprised if you found it didn't sound all that great.

I have the feeling you may not even hear much of a difference because of the soft wood you are using. Basswood is not mahogany or koa, so even if you determined that a certain bracing pattern worked best in your experiment, you have to keep in mind that this might not be the case when working with "real" tonewoods.

Other variables that come to mind:
What about the same body with different top woods like mahogany, koa, spruce, cedar... Actually these tried and tested alternatives would probably not bring out any real surprises, so you may have to venture a little further along the lines of alternative woods.
Does the finish affect the sound? A lot, a little, not at all?
Or maybe different woods for the bridge and fretboard (ebony, rosewood, maple, etc.). Do they really sound different? Is ebony really a "sound killer" on small instruments?

Honestly this could take years and I wonder if it's really worth your time when you could be working on improving your builds with the woods and patterns that have a proven track record. This sounds like heresy coming from me, as we have done and still do our share of experimenting. But I am learning to listen to and understand the honored masters, like Pete: "Beware of following crooked paths. The way to success is straight and true!"

That's a monster of a bridge! What material are you using? I use either Spanish cedar or sprue, 2mm thick...

Hey, are you serious? This is so great, interchangeable bodies with a controlled set of parameters. This has been a nerdy dream of mine, but I never get around to it, I change too many parameters at the time. Good luck, please persist, and tell us all about it!

One set of parameters to change would of course be the sides, thin - thick - laminated. With thin tops on all of them.

All the best / Sven

Hey all, not a luthier by any stretch but I am very interested in it. I am learning a lot being new to the hobby. I have been building everything from footstools to wood houses to 20 story high rises in my lifetime. I am seeing two distinct schools of thought here. The folks who know what works for them and use it and those trying new things just to see what happens. While it may be foolish to waste time and money on experimenting with new ideas, if you have the time and materials, why not. New ideas and methods are only learned one way. Experimenting. How did those people that taught you what you know learn to do what they did? Somewhere along the way someone figured it out by trying something new. My parents always used to complain that I had "a better way" to do everything, and while 90% of the time it was a huge waste of time (and I have even lost menial jobs over not being able to follow procedure), I have my current job because of my ability to find "a better way". I even have taught my own father a few things over the years (I learned a heck of a lot more by listening to him though). The bottom line is, IMO just try whatever you want. Listen to what others say, but DO what makes you happy. Just my $.02. Good luck on your experiments.

I agree with you all that experimentation is an important part of the learning process. It helps open up your head for the unknown and new. My point was that we are not working in completely unknown territory here. Of course there are different bracing schemes for guitars and ukes and what not, and some work better than others with specific woods and top thicknesses and so on. But if Steve finds a scheme that works for his basswood pineapple, is everyone going to run out and change their bracing to that scheme? All I'm saying is that even (or particularly) with very scrupulous experimentation you need to be cautious and exact with your conclusions.

Sorry, didn't mean to put a blanket on the fire.

Pete Howlett said:

That's a monster of a bridge! What material are you using? I use either Spanish cedar or sprue, 2mm thick...

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You must mean bridge PATCH. I believe that's carbon fiber shear, same stuff I use and also used by David Hurd. I've been experimenting with soundboards that have no bridge patch at all or even braces for that matter, but simply a large CF sound board reinforcement pad. But I've already said too much.........
I encourage experimenting all you can. Good for you 2dogs.

One of the pros I've had private conversations with mentioned that his ukes have no bridge patch whatsoever. My latest build, accordingly, has no bridge patch whatsoever. It's the nicest sounding uke or cbu I've built yet, standing out noticeably above the rest. In addition to the lack of a bridge patch, I made my bracing and tone bars as thin and light as I possibly could. Actually, I should mention, I thought my braces and tone bars were pretty slim to begin with, but after handling one of Pete's ukes at Elderly, I saw I could do better. My cherry top also ended up pretty thin at .055. I figured the cherry could handle it, though I wouldn't try it with a soft wood.
At any rate, that's the route I'm going to pursue for a while, thin and light. Nor will I be tying in the bracing to the sides.

My two cents.
I have been building about a year now with 25 made so far. my latest experiments include tilting the neck back about 2 degrees, bolt on neck. the fretboard glued to the neck but floating over the body. The reason for the tilt back is to get the saddle higher which moves the top more, producing more volume. My tops are around .075 on tenors 4 strings, I use a carbon fiber bridge plate that I make myself. light bracing with the A pattern bars go from lower bout to upper, with a thin sound hole patch, one cross brace and one brace going from cross brace to the bottom block. I got the idea for the bridge from Rodger Siminoff's experments in his "The luthiers handbook"

zog said:

The reason for the tilt back is to get the saddle higher which moves the top more, producing more volume."

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A high saddle can also cause premature deformation of the top because of the increased torque. I think there's a balance between sound and longevity that needs to be reached. We can all build better sounding ukes, but how long will they last? There is a delicate balance and in most instances a compromise needs to be reached.

erich@muttcrew.net said:

Of course there are different bracing schemes for guitars and ukes and what not, and some work better than others with specific woods and top thicknesses and so on...
Sorry, didn't mean to put a blanket on the fire.

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No I don't think you were. I have alot to learn for sure. If I am understanding you correctly, the bracing scheme is more related to the type of wood (in some cases) than the thickness, and therein lies a possible fault with his theory. It may work with basswood but maybe not with another species?

bigploch, in a recent thread I agreed with Pete that the trodden path is a good way to go. And I still think it is, most of the time. That time however it was one in a row of threads starting a bit like "hi I don't know anything but I have a piece of wood and some wild ideas, and can someone please tell me exactly how I should do this?" Miles away from this thread where a determined builder goes forward with a well thought out plan. I look forward to the results here!

Sven

Thanks, everybody for the great replies and inspiration. This is a big step for me to document the goofy cr*p I do in the shop and show it to the world. A year ago I didn't know what a tone bar was. I've built 7 'ukes to date, not counting these, and they sound alright, I suppose, but I think they should probably sound better. I've tried to build lightly, but have certainly been over building. I've heard that every builder ends up with more or less their own 'sound'. My last few were starting to sound alike in a way that I don't really want to continue. Problem is, I really just don't know what *too thick* is or what *too thin* is, or much else about it, to be honest. I'm hoping for some kind of " a-ha " moment where some of this stuff comes together on the work bench. I want the 'ukulele I build in the shop to turn out as nice as the 'ukulele I can build in my head.

As far as building with 'real tonewoods', yeah, absolutely. I love the beauty of wood, especially the pretty ones, and it kills me to walk past the koa, the mahogany and the mango to the *basswood* stash. Even worse to admit it and then show pictures. It takes me 6-8 weeks, at best, from start to strings, to build a 'real' instrument, and by then I've started two more, having learned little or nothing. I worked for a guy when I was a teenager whose favorite phrase (not just to me) was "just do something, anything, even if it's wrong." It takes about a days work to close up one of these sound boxes, and out of free wood to boot. I figure I've got nothing to lose but what little dignity I may have left. Maybe a few out of mahogany after these are done to see if any of this translates to tonewood. THEN... on to the koa stash!

I've heard that here in Northern California there are a whole bunch of seriously gifted luthiers, but I don't know any of them. It's just me, trying to figure it out, with the help of my UU luthier friends. I'm not trying to come up with the next "latest and greatest", or try to convince anybody what a freaking genius I am. I'm just trying to learn a -little bit- how construction methods affect the tone. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to check out these words and pictures and respond with your thoughts.

Ok now to answer some questions:
Bridge - bloodwood, 1" X 4", 19 grams
Bridge patch _ Gabon Ebony 1-1/4" X 6" X .030, 2 grams +
Could take years....awesome! I was thinking decades
Sven...Sides!...yes, I will try that
Matt... .055!?! wow, I thought this one at about 1mm was thin. I learned something already
Chuck..Thanks for the encouragementz. Your posts have all been an inspiration to me, let alone your 'ukuleles!
Everyone, thanks again for input.

It's going to be a few days before I get any shop time, but I hope to have the next 4 by the weekend.

Cheers, Steve

:cheers:

Best of luck man!

two dogs plucking said:

Matt... .055!?! wow, I thought this one at about 1mm was thin. I learned something already

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To be fair, I had it at .070 with a picture printed on top. The picture had some flaws in it, though, so I sanded it off with an orbital sander, and then I sanded those marks out with a sanding block, and that's how I arrived at .055. It works with the cherry! Also, I should point out, my bridge is lower than most (lower than my ohana or koaloha, anyway), decreasing the amount of torque on the top. The action on it is very nice, if you like it low.

UPDATE: you're talking mm, I'm talking inches. .055in is still thicker than 1mm.

I'm interested in seeing/hearing your results.

bigploch said:

...It may work with basswood but maybe not with another species?

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What I mean is that you need to balance out the stiffness, hardness, thickness and bracing of the soundboard so that you get a good tone and volume but also enough structural stability. Basswood is fairly soft and not all that stiff, so it might need heavier bracing than, for example, koa or mahogany or spruce.

But enough of this - we should wait it out and see what Steve comes up with in his comparison.

erich@muttcrew.net said:

What I mean is that you need to balance out the stiffness, hardness, thickness and bracing of the soundboard so that you get a good tone and volume but also enough structural stability. Basswood is fairly soft and not all that stiff, so it might need heavier bracing than, for example, koa or mahogany or spruce.

But enough of this - we should wait it out and see what Steve comes up with in his comparison.

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I think I got what you are saying here. And yes, let's see what Steve comes up with. Thanks for the info and sorry for hijacking the thread. Good luck man.