Accidentals? (another chord theory question)

A lot of times, In chord progressions I find chords outside the I ii iii IV V vi and vii chords. How would I know as a composer when, where, and which accidental would fit?

Wow - that's one of those theory questions that goes way beyond something that can be answered in a forum, I think. It sounds like you know enough about chord theory to understand which are the "primary" and "secondary" chords in a given key and so on. Those are the rules and if you stick to them you are pretty much assured of making "reasonable" music. The difference between reasonable and jaw dropping though often comes from breaking the rules - the problem is that you have to know not just the rules, but the underlying reasons for them, before you can intelligently break those rules. For example, do you know why the I ii iii IV V vi and viidim chords are "in" the key? Do you understand scales and modes and the relationships between those and chords? If not, then those are the issues you should study, and there are entire books written just on scales and modes.

Now, having said all that - if you've a good ear you can throw out all the theory and just dink around on the fretboard until you find stuff that sounds cool! That sounds silly, but most of your really outstanding blues artists from the early 20th century didn't know a lick of theory.

John

I have a book on music theory, and two books on composition, but they seem pretty shallow. I would really like to have a deep understanding like the kind you're talking about. What are some good books?!

Do you have a college nearby with a decent theory class that might be open for registration? I've never written a note outside of arranging things that already exist, or for theory projects I was forced to do, so it's a tough one for me to answer in a forum. The easiest way is to sit down with a good theory professor at a piano at one of those blackboards with a staff on it, and hash out why it happens.

The most generic answer I could give would be that there are other modes than major or minor, and don't forget a composer can go completely atonal.

For what you are hoping to learn, I am not sure that I know of a book which will be exactly what you're looking for. Many of the higher level theory/harmony books will spend a great deal of time with voice leading (aka when chords change, each note of the chord has a few options of where to go to get to the next note. Voice leading is about the rules and logic which govern the way in which each note can move).
I like the idea of sitting down with someone who really knows their stuff and getting them to do demonstrations. You may get frustrated with books which focus on rules, rules and more rules.

I would consider looking into understanding modulations and secondary dominants (V of V). Often when you encounter accidentals, they are part of a so-called 'pivot' chord. The pivot chord functions as a bridge from one key to another. One of the most common modulations (key changes) is from one key to a key based on the dominant note. For example, changing from the key of C major to G major. Key changes such as this one often employ a secondary dominant (the dominant of the key you what to change to - in the case of modulating to G, you would need the D or D7 chord). So, for a strong modulation from C major to G major, try to figure out a way to get to the D or D7 chord as you are fooling around in C and then resolve your D/D7 to G. The resolution of V or V7 to I is very powerful and will enable you to quickly and firmly establish the new key.
Here is an example of what I mean (but, be warned, it isn't really that pretty - but it does illustrate the point):

Establish the key of C major by playing:
C (I)
F (IV)
G/G7 (V/V7)
C (I)

Next phrase, modulate to G major by using D major (you will be adding an F# which is not normally present in C major) chord:
C (I)
F (IV)
D7 (V7 of G)
G (I, your new tonic)


peace,

You know that theory has well and truly messed with your head when nearly everyone on a test labels a chord as IV/V - when it was a I, just a good ole fashioned I, not IV of V!

My favorite professor used to modulate to Abm in tests a lot, just so he could say in the review "And how do we get to A flat minor? Throw a piano down a mine-shaft."

The books are an excellent guide but a teacher can make it come to life for you.

Taking secondary dominants one step further: get one and make more and more.

Take the chord sequence

I V7

or C G7

Now throw in the secondary dominant (the V7 of G)

You now have C D7 G7

Continue (the V7 of D7)

C A7 D7 G7

That right there is at the heart of HUGE amounts of early ukulele music. Obviously you can keep going (the V7 of A7)

C E7 A7 D7 G7

is pretty common, and also very Tin Pan Alley.

Secondary dominants are a very typical ukulele thing, and you don't have to use them to change key. You can just use them to make the whole trip from I to V back to I a bit more interesting.

I don't know of any theory book which actually just goes through chord progressions and the use of chromaticism (accidentals outside the key). One of the problems is that chord progressions often depend on context. Bach did pretty much everything we do (without parallel 5ths and octaves), but made it all sound Baroque. So saying what a chord progression "sounds like" is difficult at best.

pulelehua said:

Taking secondary dominants one step further: get one and make more and more.

Take the chord sequence

I V7

or C G7
<--- snip --->
That right there is at the heart of HUGE amounts of early ukulele music. Obviously you can keep going (the V7 of A7)

C E7 A7 D7 G7

is pretty common, and also very Tin Pan Alley.
<--- snip --->

Click to expand...

And can be found right there on your circle of fifths.



If you jump from C to E and then step backwards (i.e. anti-clockwise) you'll see that very progression.

I spend half my playing time doing something like that.

I love posts like this. For the unschooled among us, gems like this that we can pull out a uke and play and instantly appreciate are priceless. Thanks.

you can also use "borrowed chords"

meaning any chord that naturally occurs in the major scale...
I ii iii IV V vi viiDIM

...can be alternated into a chord from the naturally occuring minor scale.
i iiDIM III iv v VI VII

therefore there are accidentals there. meaning "I(b3)" is actually a borrowed "i" from it's minor counterpart.

...that is just one way. there are also "secondary chords"
meaning a [viiDIM/x] or a [V/x]

Which means... you take the naturally occuring 7 diminished chord of "x" and place it before "x" occurs in the chord progression. X is simply a variable. replace it with any scale degree, except for I.

for example:
I IV [viiDIM/V] V I


those are 2 of the most common ways to use accidentals.

hope you understand... if not, PM me. i'm in a theory course right now and i would love to help someone out

Plainsong said:

Do you have a college nearby with a decent theory class that might be open for registration? I've never written a note outside of arranging things that already exist, or for theory projects I was forced to do, so it's a tough one for me to answer in a forum. The easiest way is to sit down with a good theory professor at a piano at one of those blackboards with a staff on it, and hash out why it happens.

The most generic answer I could give would be that there are other modes than major or minor, and don't forget a composer can go completely atonal.

Click to expand...

+1. I have a degree in music and you'll benefit from a class on this. A community college probably has just such a class--or an extension class at a state school. Trust me, this can be complicated without a classroom. I'm sweating just thinking about my theory and composition classes!

What's actually totally left out of this discussion is the use of melodic accidentals. An accidental doesn't HAVE to mean a new chord. Classical composers often used notes a semitone below the chord note as a form of accented chromaticism. If someone plays a C chord, and you play either D#-E or F#-G, you'll hear what I mean. Or, if your fingers can swing it, do it yourself. Easy if you strum 0-0-0-6, then "resolve" the 6 up to 7. Or 0-0-0-9 up to 10. Like chromatic notes in harmony, there are some "rules" about chromaticism in melody, many from the classical era, most of the rest from jazz/the blues, but as OldePhart said, your ear is a wonderful judge.

Is that what I remember as chromatic neighboring tones? I just mentioned this as part of a joke in the related thread. That's exactly what that is, isn't it? You'll have to forgive me, it's be a million years since theory, and I never had to use it past "Oh, that's why. Interesting."

takesuoutswitch said:

I have a book on music theory, and two books on composition, but they seem pretty shallow. I would really like to have a deep understanding like the kind you're talking about. What are some good books?!

Click to expand...

If you're looking for deep, you're looking for academic textbook type things. As others have recommended I suggest you check with your local junior college.

I've had a couple of decent non-academic books over the years. One that I remember was particularly helpful was called "Scales Over Chords" - or something like that. I remember it was a white oversize soft-bound book with a beautiful flamed-maple translucent red strat on the cover. I haven't seen it in ages and I think it might have gotten stuck in storage - either that or lost in a move.

John

Plainsong said:

Is that what I remember as chromatic neighboring tones? I just mentioned this as part of a joke in the related thread. That's exactly what that is, isn't it? You'll have to forgive me, it's be a million years since theory, and I never had to use it past "Oh, that's why. Interesting."

Click to expand...

Yes. Or, more technically an appogiatura, or accacciatura, depending on the context. But the short answer is yes.

Oh, I'm starting to get cold sweats..

Plainsong said:

Oh, I'm starting to get cold sweats..

Click to expand...

I remember being in a music theory class about 20 years ago. I was one of the only people NOT going to do music as an intended career (oops! guess I failed on that score), and when asked why we were taking music theory, I said, quite uniquely, "Because I like it!", to be greeted by looks of horror by my classmates.

Plainsong said:

You know that theory has well and truly messed with your head when nearly everyone on a test labels a chord as IV/V - when it was a I, just a good ole fashioned I, not IV of V!

My favorite professor used to modulate to Abm in tests a lot, just so he could say in the review "And how do we get to A flat minor? Throw a piano down a mine-shaft."

The books are an excellent guide but a teacher can make it come to life for you.

Click to expand...

While IV/V is one, it is often written V/IV, often as with a dominant 7 to lead into IV. It would look like V7/IV

So if you were in C, you would play a C7 as the V/IV and then lead into an F chord, which is the IV of C.

Yeah, it's been a while, I don't want to add the years!

The C7 leading to the F would be the dead giveaway, the 7th..

And what a great example for uke players! Everyone remember that the next time you play that, that something theoretically amazing just happened.

Please also remember that most theory was devised to explain what happened after someone just up and did it. Lots and lots of music was made before anyone thought at all about music theory.