Is Koa Better?

Witters

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Is Koa really better in terms of sound? I know they are usually the most expensive Uke's, and I have never had one or heard one in the flesh - I have heard sound samples and youtube stuff, but never first hand.

This may seem a silly question as everyone is different, and for me up till now I rather like Mahogany. Then again, I like the sound of the Flea which is as far away from anything else as you can get. Spruce or Cedar I imagine will be similar to a Guitar, but have no idea about Walnut or Maple.

With all the different Uke's available today its quite hard to judge especially as they are far cheaper than Koa, and as I'm always quoting the phrase "you get what you pay for", this seems logical to advise someone who wants to spend £500 or $1000 to go for a Koa. But am I correct? Apart from Koa wood being expensive are they classed as the best apart from that?
 
i think the sound would depend on the person really... to me i think they r quite soothing but i really like kamaka's and pono

in fact.. kamaka, pono and koa i like all the same, i wouldnt mind either
 
The thing is, is that every uke maker builds there uke diffrently, so two koa ukes will have fairly diffrent tones. same with mahogany. Also strings have a (IMO) greater efect then the wood.

with that, has anyone ever played a koa guitar?
 
I think the combination of koa and whatever strings jake uses is the best way anyone could go tone wise, btw, anyone know what strings he uses?:p
 
I think sound has more to do with the builder than the material used. Koa is expensive so koa ukes are expensive, not necessarily because it sounds better. I have several koa ukes and they all sound very good. The best sounding of the ukes I own are, of course, custom level ukes (William King, Koa Works). The fact that they use koa probably is a very small reason why they sound great. I think William King could build a uke out of balsa wood and make it sound great.
 
In regards to guitars, Koa is a bit brighter than Mahogany and works really well for fingerstyle. To me, it's just too bright for anything other than fingerstyle, but again, that's just me. Guitars built with all Mahogany are mellow and smooth, brighter than rosewood, but not too bright. Put a Spruce top on a Mahogany guitar and it becomes brighter.

Regarding ukuleles, to me Koa has the "Island" sound, and Mahogany has more of a vintage sound. Today, Vintage Martin ukes are the most sought after ukes there are in the terms of collecting. They have what most call the "Martin" sound. That sound is a sound tha many builders have tried to duplicate for many years. Kiwaya is one modern builder who models many of their ukuleles after the Martins of the past. They have succeded pretty well with their Sopranos, but their Conert and Tenor sizes, although very good in their own right, just don't sound like their Martin counterparts.

In terms of tone, I have heard many who prefer the "Martin" sound not because it's a Martin, but because they feel they can control the tone better than they can with a Koa uke. Keep in mind that when I refer to the "Martin" sound, I am refering to ukes made of Mahogany. This is of course personal preference. But basically, what they are saying is the more mellow tone of Mahogany can be controlled easier with different strumming and picking techniques. Koa isn't as easy to control for some players. I know a lot of uke players from the Martin Guitar Forum, and this is something that most fo them agree on.

As far as pricning, I am willing to bet if any of the big Hawaiin builders started using Mahogany, the pricing would be right up there. For starters, Genuine Honduran Mahogany is getting to be quite scarce, and it's status with C.I.T.E.S. is gradually changing. Simply put, we wont have Mahogany around for much longer, much like the situation with Brazilian Rosewood. As it is, guitar builders like Martin can't even get good quality Mahogany neck blocks in the quanities they need to keep up with thier production. Many of their guitars now sport Spanish Cedar necks instead of Mahogany necks. I'm not sure how Koa is doing with C.I.T.E.S., but with all the building going on, it probably isn't to far off from Mahogany.

Anyone wondering what C.I.T.E.S. is, it is a UN group that oversees the agreement to protect endangered species, including animals, as well as flora and fauna, which would include endangered trees.

A lot of the "Mahogany" ukes on the market today are not even made with Mahogany. They are actually make with Sapele, which often goes by the name "African Mahogany". Sapele is not even in the same family as Mahogany, but has a tone almost identical to Mahogany Also, a lot of Mahogany or Sapele ukes are being built in China and other countries where a uke can be built and sold for pennies on the dollar. So, maybe this gives the perspective of being cheaper versus Koa. This is a false perspective and not a fair comparison. As I said above, if any of the if Hawaiin builders started using Mahogany, they woudn't be cheap. If anything, they would probably have a better value down the road in terms of collecting.

As far as player ukes, I would say that no wood is better in regards to tone. It is really up to what they player prefers. I have one really nice Koa uke with another on the way. I also have a cheaper Mahogany uke coming too. I have no idea what the Mahogany uke will sound like, I'm just hoping it will satisfy my desire for a Mahogany uke until I can save up for either a Custom or a Vintage Martin. I prefer tenor sized ukes, so for me, the selection is even smaller when it comes to Mahogany.

If you love Mahogany, keep loving it. If you want a high end Mahogany uke, you will probably need to go custom, or seek out a nice Vintage Martin. As far as Walnut, it is described as sounding very much like Koa, and Maple would be pretty close to, maybe even a bit brighter.

Sorry for such a long post, I just wanted to dispell the notion that Mahogany was cheaper, and I wanted to share from other perspectives.
 
Thanks for that rt1, that was very interesting.

While my experience is limited I seem to favor Mahogany over Koa (sound clips only) as far as strumming, yet really like the Koa better for finger picking (clips only again), as highlighted in your post which is the consensus of many others.

In that respect I would probably be far better off with something other than Koa and more than likely Mahogany.

You mentioned Kiwaya as not really coming up to scratch as far as Concerts, so is there anything else out there which might?
I know Pono make a Mahogany Concert, but have no idea if they would be classed as something really good.
 
You mentioned Kiwaya as not really coming up to scratch as far as Concerts, so is there anything else out there which might?
I know Pono make a Mahogany Concert, but have no idea if they would be classed as something really good.

I should say upfront that I don't have any personal experience with Kiwaya. Also let me explain my comments. I have heard really good things about the Kiwayas, but you have to keep in mind that they are often compared to Vintage Martins since they are building to those same specs. What I have heard is that when compared to Vintage Martins, the Sopranos that Kiwaya builds compare very nicely and have a very similar tone. The Concerts and Tenors, however, don't compare as nicely to their Martin counterparts. That doesn't mean they sound inferior, just different. In other words, they don't sound as Vintage as the Sopranos do. So, as long as you have no expectation of them sounding like a Martin, they will more than likely do the job. Does that make sense?

If Kiwaya's KTT-1, their Tenor model, had a few more features, such as binding, etc..., I wouldn't hesitate to give one a try.
 
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I should say upfront that I don't have any personal experience with Kiwaya. Also let me explain my comments. I have heard really good things about the Kiwayas, but you have to keep in mind that they are often compared to Vintage Martins since they are building to those same specs. What I have heard is that when compared to Vintage Martins, the Sopranos that Kiwaya builds compare very nicely and have a very similar tone. The Concerts and Tenors, however, don't compare as nicely to their Martin counterparts. That doesn't mean they sound inferior, just different. In other words, they don't sound as Vintage as the Sopranos do. So, as long as you have no expectation of them sounding like a Martin, they will more than likely do the job. Does that make sense?

If Kiwaya's KTT-1, their Tenor model, had a few more features, such as binding, etc..., I wouldn't hesitate to give one a try.
Absolutely.

In that sense, a Kiwaya could not be a wrong choice unless I was expressly after a Vintage Martin sound.

As all of the top end Uke's are Koa though, if I didn't get a Kiwaya, and was prepared to wait, am I right in saying that to get a really good one out of Mahogany, I need to have one made?
 
Absolutely.

In that sense, a Kiwaya could not be a wrong choice unless I was expressly after a Vintage Martin sound.

Yes, that was my point. In fact MGM has this one http://cgi.ebay.com/Kiwaya-KTC-3-Solid-Mahogany-CONCERT-Ukulele-Martin-Tone_W0QQitemZ250269973645QQihZ015QQcategoryZ16224QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262


As all of the top end Uke's are Koa though, if I didn't get a Kiwaya, and was prepared to wait, am I right in saying that to get a really good one out of Mahogany, I need to have one made?

Well, it doesn't seem like anyone is building much in Mahogany right now except for builders like Kiwaya or Pono, or the other builders like Ohana, or Bushman. At least not in anything other than soprano size. So if you're talking high end as in having a really nice instrument with some nice upgaded features, I woud say yes, you need to go custom. You might check with some of the big Hawaiin builders to see about the pricing of building a nice uke in Mahogany.

I am talking with Andy Powers right now about a Custom Tenor. I also have my eyes open for nice Martin Tenors.
 
My question is what exactly makes Koa so expensive. Is it a rare tree? Is it really that much better? Is it simply consumer perception of what's "valuable"?

Again, no expert here, but I have heard that there are some rules that have slowed down the harvesting of Koa trees. I don't know where Koa stands as far as C.I.T.E.S. is concerned. The thing is though, it's not just Koa. As I mentioned in another post, Mahogany is getting quite expensive as well. You just don't see that many builders using it so maybe the perception is that Koa seems more exspensive. Kiwaya builds a Mahoagny Tenor that lists for over $1200. That's a lot more than my KoAloah Tenor made out of Koa.

The demand seems to be for the same Koa ukes that players like Jake S. and James Hill, and Aldrine are playing, so there isn't much demand for Mahogany ukes, at least not in the larger sizes.

FWIW, if you custom order a guitar from Martin right now, there is an upcharge of $500 to guarantee a solid Mahogany neck. They have moved almost exclusively to Sapele on their 15 Series, and there is talk of using Sapele on the Standard D-18, one of their flagship guitars.:eek:

Edited to add:
Just an update, Koa is not currently listed with C.I.T.E.S. It would seem, however, that much of the Koa in Hawaii is on private land, so the supply may vary depending on the willingness of the private land owner to harvest and sell it. That could certainly have an effect on price. Mahogany is currently listed on Appendix 2, which means it is one step from becoming illegal to harvest.
 
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IMO, from what ive seen most woods are becoming more expensive/rare. one wood is bubinga, its a wood used for instraments, not so much for ukes but a lot for HIGH end drums. i just looked on CITES and its listed as being over used. I think most of these woods are found small countires with poor economy. Thus they harvast it willy nilly, (koa being a hawaii) rt pointed out that koa is on privite land so that the more likely reason for it being expensive.

if only ply wood gave us quality sound.
 
if only ply wood gave us quality sound.

Ohhh a particle board Uke! I would like to see what that BabmoUke sounds like. I guess though for me (inexperienced) to hear the difference the two ukes would need to have the same string, same player and same set of notes played back to back. At least the BamboUke looks great (IMO)
 
First, comments on comments:

I agree with GX - the builder has way more impact on how an instrument sounds than the wood itself.

James Hill plays a Maple body.

As a tonewood, Koa is not necessarily the "best". Structurally, it twists and turns, and is considers a soft hardwood. However, Koa is very difficult to beat from an eye candy standpoint.

As for rare? Not as rare as Kamani, or Milo, or Kou. These were the three historic woods in Hawai`i. Geography dictates that Koa was rubbish (as it grows above 1500'). Since Kou got wasted by disease, and Milo is (almost) gone because of development along the coast, Koa was substituted. Back in the day, figured pieces were looked upon as a defect (like spalting) - take a guess what happened to those pieces.

I'm not a fan of Koa, much (although I my Kamaka's and KoAloha's are all Koa, and 3 custom Tenors are Koa/Spruce or WRC). Quilted (and Curly) Maple is one of my favorites, but my ultimate will be Milo/Sitka (fortunately I already have one). One of the best sounding ones to date - Myrtlewood/Englemann.

Why does James Hill play a Maple? Derek said "that was the sound they were looking for". From a tonewood standpoint, it makes sense for his style of fingerpicking play.

Just my $.02 - Aaron
 
Just my $.02 - Aaron
That was a very nice piece of info I had no read anywhere yet. Thank you.

Quite relieved actually. Now there is no need to crave this junk wood anymore. Phew... :music: I've always wondered why people are so crazy about that "curly" beauty that is supposed to be koa. I like the straight patterns as used in Koaloha / Kanile'a ukes a lot more, they are the ultimate in cool.
 
Is Koa really better in terms of sound? I know they are usually the most expensive Uke's, and I have never had one or heard one in the flesh - I have heard sound samples and youtube stuff, but never first hand.

This may seem a silly question as everyone is different, and for me up till now I rather like Mahogany. Then again, I like the sound of the Flea which is as far away from anything else as you can get. Spruce or Cedar I imagine will be similar to a Guitar, but have no idea about Walnut or Maple.

With all the different Uke's available today its quite hard to judge especially as they are far cheaper than Koa, and as I'm always quoting the phrase "you get what you pay for", this seems logical to advise someone who wants to spend £500 or $1000 to go for a Koa. But am I correct? Apart from Koa wood being expensive are they classed as the best apart from that?

it depends on your personal taste in regards to sound, as well as the build of the uke. my cordoba is made of koa. i like it, but it's not my favorite uke in regards to sound....

it all just depends on the circumstances!
 
my cordoba is made of koa.

It is my understanding that while Cordoba is made with an Acacia, its not Koa, although they market it as such. Probably something similar to Australian Blackwood/Black Acacia.

Good part is they are at least making an effort to at least use an Acacia. It not like they are saying Philippine Mahogany as a replacement for Honduran.
 
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