Titebond v's Hide glue joint failure

Timbuck

Timbuck

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Yeah, we don't got to show you no stinkin' badges!

I think Timbuck was referring to a StewMac newsletter talking about some bond testing after a four hour exposure to different glues. The results were a bit surprising to me as well. Here's the graph they showed.
 

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Just goes to show you how incredible hide glue is. I would imagine it's life span is much longer as well. I think the only reason people don't use it more is convenience.
 
I always understood that the old traditional violin makers prefered Hide glue so they could dismantle the instruments for repair work at a later date ..but according to this, Titebond would be even easier to dismantle..and it's easier to work with.
 
There's a difference between "failing" and coming off completely clean. Hide glue liquifies quickly under heat and moisture and can be removed with a damp paper towel (or not...you can re-activate it). The Titebond Original type PVAs soften enough to allow the joint to separate but don't completely loosen their bond with the wood and leaves a sticky mess. Also...and most importanly...you cannot glue Titebond to itself. To re-attach a previously Titebonded joint you have to remove it completely and cleanly down to raw wood for a good bond. Hide glue re-activates with heat and moisture or a little new hot hide glue and adheres to itself. That's the reason why it is prefered over Titebond for joints which may need future adjustment.
 
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Tarhead said:
There's a difference between "failing" and coming off completely clean. Hide glue liquifies quickly under heat and moisture and can be removed with a damp paper towel (or not...you can re-activate it). The Titebond Original type PVAs soften enough to allow the joint to separate but don't completely loosen their bond with the wood and leaves a sticky mess. Also...and most importanly...you cannot glue Titebond to itself. To re-attach a previously Titebonded joint you have to remove it completely and cleanly down to raw wood for a good bond. Hide glue re-activates with heat and moisture or a little new hot hide glue and adheres to itself. That's the reason why it is prefered over Titebond for joints which may need future adjustment.
Click to expand...

Oh! ...Now I see....:bowdown:..That makes sense.:D
 
Titebond and their other PVA based like also will allow cold creep. Where the joint slides under stress and over time. Not so much of an issue on a uke with much lower tension than a steel string guitar though. Hide glue has very little if any cold creep. Instead if a joint fails it just lets go. Very good thing for bridges.

If you've ever had to repair a brace that's come loose inside an instrument, or a top or back that has come loose from the linings, you'll love the ease that you can repair one glued with hide glue. With one glued with PVA it's nothing but an ordeal that no one relishes.
 
I go back to my thoughts of the need for using at least two if not three types of glue depending upon your procedure. I never want a plate joint to come apart and I never want to have to repair a loose brace. In those cases I will use the strongest glue I can get my hands on. A bridge, on the other hand may require a different kind of glue. I think all of the different components we deal with all have a different set of requirements and should be treated differently.
 
Allen said:
Titebond and their other PVA based like also will allow cold creep. Where the joint slides under stress and over time. Not so much of an issue on a uke with much lower tension than a steel string guitar though. Hide glue has very little if any cold creep. Instead if a joint fails it just lets go. Very good thing for bridges.

If you've ever had to repair a brace that's come loose inside an instrument, or a top or back that has come loose from the linings, you'll love the ease that you can repair one glued with hide glue. With one glued with PVA it's nothing but an ordeal that no one relishes.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it is possible but I have steel string guitar bridges that were glue with PVA over 20 years ago and they they are still where they are supposed to be. They are mine, so I would know. I am surprised by the temp ratings. I always assumed Titebond was more durable that hide glue in that respect.
 
It's rare that you see a bridge on a steel string guitar present cold creep simply because the strings and pins are holding it to the top and bridge plate. Where you will see it is predominately in the fret board to neck join as well as in the neck block.
 
Excellent info. I'll be using hide glue for some things then, but on these sopranos it's all titebond. I still wanna try fish glue for bindings because of its long working time and easy cleanup... someone convince me to do so... tell me it won't fail down the road.
 
I know several luthiers that use fish glue for their guitars. Most of them are in Europe as it seems that it's readily available there. Very difficult to get in Australia and import with our Quarantine laws makes it problematic. The one place that I know sells it has at least a 300% markup on what it should be.
 
Allen said:
I know several luthiers that use fish glue for their guitars. Most of them are in Europe as it seems that it's readily available there. Very difficult to get in Australia and import with our Quarantine laws makes it problematic. The one place that I know sells it has at least a 300% markup on what it should be.
Click to expand...

The most expensive is Isinglass from dried sturgeon bladders. Almost $50 per oz. It is even more invisible than hide glue:
http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=17576

Vinegar or lemon juice work well to weaken Titebond joints.
 
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