An honest question to those who are upset about the VIP program
- Thread starter rayan
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I am trying to word this the best I can. It don't think it much matters what you call the program. I am honestly confused about this program and the UUU plus program you also announced. I thought it was one program and now there is this and the 'wait for the other email/announcement'. No matter if I join the program or not I support UU fully.... I am a very happy UUU student, but more importantly a mother of 3 and a full time student working on a masters degree- college is expensive and honestly I can't say that joining both (VIP and UUU)is in my budget at this time.
My only concern about not joining the program is that the people that are active, and knowledgeable about the uke and techniques will be posting and reading in your special members only forums and I will no longer get the active participation and community from them that I have become used to and what makes me love coming to this forum daily.
I have loved UUU and financially will have to make a choice... I hope you all will put out that information soon...
My only concern about not joining the program is that the people that are active, and knowledgeable about the uke and techniques will be posting and reading in your special members only forums and I will no longer get the active participation and community from them that I have become used to and what makes me love coming to this forum daily.
I have loved UUU and financially will have to make a choice... I hope you all will put out that information soon...
It sounds better. But to be honest, I never gave any "title" a second thought. But that's just me... 
guitarsnrotts
Well-known member
In defense of the new option, I am a newbie and to be honest do not plan to become either a VIP or monetary Supporter. That being said, this latest option is not a new concept and those that think it is worthwhile should support it. Being a longtime guitar player there is another organization named C.F Martin & Co. who has done the same thing and met with the same push back. These folks are a multi-million dollar corporation but felt that they could offer an additional level of customer support and services by starting their Owners Membership Club. It has been a success and if you wish to participate it is voluntary. You join, you enjoy the perks, if not you still have access to their Customer Support, their guitars and the joy of the music. This site is a wealth of knowledge and information sharing for a common interest and should be appreciated for what it brings us for free.
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Ahh.. It's a support thing.. I didn't even know that to be honest. BUT, that said.. I do not financially support this site, altho I should, and now that I am thinking about it, probably will. I have several hobbies, Uke, Guitar, Model Railroading, Off Roading, Jeeps in particular, Hot rod clubs, etc. the list goes on really. I support several forums that I enjoy. If I enjoy the people, the relationship, the atmosphere, I typically enjoy it, because to me, that has value. And the support helps keep that part of a hobby going for me to enjoy. This site fits the profile I just stated 100%, and to be honest, I am now sort of ashamed that I had not even considered supporting this site because it is one of my favorite and supportive forums, even more than some other sites I do support. I have been, and still member of several clubs, from computers, to hot rods, and have been Pres, and VP of most of them at some point, as well as moderators of forums. I know that there are great expenses involved with keeping sites active, and running. Bandwidth is kind of expensive for one thing, not even considering hardware, maintenance, development, etc to support a large forum. It cost money folks, and people that run them could use help from time to time to help cover expenses to keep us connected. Why shouldn't they ask for help? We enjoy it? Would miss it if it were gone, so why not send a few bucks to help them keep us connected? It's volentary, so maybe there should be some perks to make people want to send a few bucks. Why not? If one of the perks is to give a title? if if makes ya feel worthy and better, great, mission accomplished. If the ones want to have that king feeling, then send a few bucks in too to support a forum you enjoy. Just sayin.. there is nothing wrong with a forum you enjoy to ask for help to keep it going, and there shouldn't be anything wrong with wanting to help keep it going.
Just sayin..
Just sayin..
Skitzic
Well-known member
Well said.
Moore Bettah Ukuleles
Well-known member
If I were Ukulele KIng (and I soon expect to be) I would have simply set up a "tip Jar" after explaining what expenses are incurred in running such a web site, then suggesting a tip amount that would be most beneficial.
But what I really see as a potential problem is the VIP designation; I would prefer that part to be hidden as it only serves to separate "us" from "them". We really don't need that in this community. No need to make shame for anyone. If people think of the VIP designation as an incentive, then they are giving for the wrong reasons. I think most of us just want you to have the revenue to keep the site going.
But what I really see as a potential problem is the VIP designation; I would prefer that part to be hidden as it only serves to separate "us" from "them". We really don't need that in this community. No need to make shame for anyone. If people think of the VIP designation as an incentive, then they are giving for the wrong reasons. I think most of us just want you to have the revenue to keep the site going.
CurlyKoaWithKonaCoffee
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I definitely agree with some of that.
But mainly, I don't see how it helps the Undies issue. Anyone can buy access to it. And some/many good people may not be able to afford access to it. I think that will take the spirit out of it, more than anything. (Btw, my knowledge of the Undies, is just from the other thread on the topic of cheating, so I'm sorry if I'm confused.)
I'm all for a supporting option, especially if it comes with no ads. I have purchased them in the past for other forums, and would consider it here as well. But I don't think it should be what decides access to the awards.
Someone before, mentioned that maybe membership time/activity could be a baseline, and I think that seems more fair overall.
ukulelezo
Well-known member
To be fair, they did do that. There's a "tip jar" on the front page. I really should have used it...I'M SORRY! But like many of us I rarely go to front page anymore. I don't care what you do with the titles. We just want to support you.
Moore Bettah Ukuleles;666432 If people think of the VIP designation as an incentive said:
marymac
Well-known member
I hear what you're saying Fitncrafty and I hadn't even thought about that. Knowing this community, I don't think that people would make a donation to UU just to get access to a "private" forum. I certainly didn't! I made a donation because I love the people of UU and want to support this community. Financially I can do that right now.
Frankly I can't imagine that the main content of the forum will ever leave Uke Talk anyway (and Beginners Forum, Luthier's Lounge etc), and I sure hope it doesn't. Some days it's all I can do to skim ONE of the forums, much less multiples.
If the existence of the UU VIP forum is the problem for many of the people who can't make a donation, maybe that could be done away with? For me the main benefit is supporting the community, with a secondary benefit being a larger PM box (the 50 msg limit always made me crazy - I never delete anything!) I can see that the mods want to have some added benefits to offer financial supporters but maybe having a separate forum is too divisive to the UU community, and I can pretty much guarantee that NONE of the people who are making donations want to divide this community. It's totally the opposite; people support it financially because they want to expand/maintain/express their appreciation for it!
Making changes like this is going to cause some waves in any community, but I think it's worth doing if it will keep this forum alive for a good long time. And I think it's worth a mention that the guys who run the forum are pioneers, and no pioneer ever got everything right the first time. I think it's awesome that Rayan has posted this question in a very open spirit and that people are responding to it in the same way. This is like having a friend asks you for a donation to a cause. Sometimes the asking is awkward but it's in the spirit of helping the larger community so if you have it, you donate, and if you don't you demur and offer encouragement instead. I hope that we can find some of that kind of heart here at UU.
Summary:
- I support changing the financial donater's logo to UU Supporter
- I suggest that the UU VIP forum go away if it rubs too many long-time members the wrong way
- I'm a lightweight and I had a beer with lunch so if I rambled in this post I apologize in advance
Frankly I can't imagine that the main content of the forum will ever leave Uke Talk anyway (and Beginners Forum, Luthier's Lounge etc), and I sure hope it doesn't. Some days it's all I can do to skim ONE of the forums, much less multiples.
If the existence of the UU VIP forum is the problem for many of the people who can't make a donation, maybe that could be done away with? For me the main benefit is supporting the community, with a secondary benefit being a larger PM box (the 50 msg limit always made me crazy - I never delete anything!) I can see that the mods want to have some added benefits to offer financial supporters but maybe having a separate forum is too divisive to the UU community, and I can pretty much guarantee that NONE of the people who are making donations want to divide this community. It's totally the opposite; people support it financially because they want to expand/maintain/express their appreciation for it!
Making changes like this is going to cause some waves in any community, but I think it's worth doing if it will keep this forum alive for a good long time. And I think it's worth a mention that the guys who run the forum are pioneers, and no pioneer ever got everything right the first time. I think it's awesome that Rayan has posted this question in a very open spirit and that people are responding to it in the same way. This is like having a friend asks you for a donation to a cause. Sometimes the asking is awkward but it's in the spirit of helping the larger community so if you have it, you donate, and if you don't you demur and offer encouragement instead. I hope that we can find some of that kind of heart here at UU.
Summary:
- I support changing the financial donater's logo to UU Supporter
- I suggest that the UU VIP forum go away if it rubs too many long-time members the wrong way
- I'm a lightweight and I had a beer with lunch so if I rambled in this post I apologize in advance
Before responding, I want to repeat what I said in the VIP thread, which is that I'm happy to provde some financial support (and thankful to be able to) to such a supportive community. I was one of the people who commented in that thread that maybe people were put off by the "VIP" designation.
My sense is that the big concern of people who don't want to pony up $45/year to become VIPs has less to do with what people who do become VIPs are called and more to do with the idea that when this program is instituted, non-VIPs will be excluded from some of the stuff that happens at UU that they used to have access to. It may have been that the introduction of the VIP idea failed to go into enough detail to address these concerns. Unfortunately, as models of how to generate income on the Internet have evolved, it's become more common for stuff on the Internet to be free until it isn't. It's easy, when rolling out a program like the VIP program at an already established site like UU, to create the perception that people are now being charged for some things that were at one time free, and that, therefore, not paying to become a VIP member results in losing access to some things to whech there had been access at one time. For that reason, setting up something like a VIP program at an established and ongoing Internet site like UU is trickier than setting one up on a new website, where nobody has expectations about what the benefits of membership (at whatever level) are.
It might be a good idea to spell out as specifically as possible (1) what was available to people who registered on UU before the VIP program started, (2) what will still be available to people who are registered but don't participate in the VIP program, and (3) what (if any) new/additional benefits will be given to VIPs in exchange for their financial support. You may find more support for the VIP program, or less resistance to it, if it appears that the additional benefits of VIP membership are NOT benefits that used to be available to all, but are instead new and different benefits that never used to be available to anyone. NPR, for example, offers sponsorships at different levels with different bundles of benefits (like free a free tee shirt or umbrella), but it doesn't say "If you don't become a financially contributing member, you can still listen to most of our programming but no longer to "Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me," "Car Talk," or "This American Life." It's possible that by limiting even one former benefit of free membership to VIP members (for example, participation in UU-sponsored contests), you've created the perception that something is being withheld unless a free member is willing to pay for it by becoming a VIP member. That feels coercive to people, even though I know that nobody at UU intended to be or even seem coercive.
To answer your specific question, I prefer "supporter" to "VIP" (having suggested supporter in the otehr thread), but I don't know that changing the name addresses the perception problem. You may wish to rethink, at least for existing free members, devising a VIP program that doesn't feel like it takes anything away from existing free members that they didn't already have access to here, and instead providing people who sign up as VIPs with new benefits that don't now exist on the site or, as marymac suggested, no new benefit at all but just the opportunity to offer monetary support.
My sense is that the big concern of people who don't want to pony up $45/year to become VIPs has less to do with what people who do become VIPs are called and more to do with the idea that when this program is instituted, non-VIPs will be excluded from some of the stuff that happens at UU that they used to have access to. It may have been that the introduction of the VIP idea failed to go into enough detail to address these concerns. Unfortunately, as models of how to generate income on the Internet have evolved, it's become more common for stuff on the Internet to be free until it isn't. It's easy, when rolling out a program like the VIP program at an already established site like UU, to create the perception that people are now being charged for some things that were at one time free, and that, therefore, not paying to become a VIP member results in losing access to some things to whech there had been access at one time. For that reason, setting up something like a VIP program at an established and ongoing Internet site like UU is trickier than setting one up on a new website, where nobody has expectations about what the benefits of membership (at whatever level) are.
It might be a good idea to spell out as specifically as possible (1) what was available to people who registered on UU before the VIP program started, (2) what will still be available to people who are registered but don't participate in the VIP program, and (3) what (if any) new/additional benefits will be given to VIPs in exchange for their financial support. You may find more support for the VIP program, or less resistance to it, if it appears that the additional benefits of VIP membership are NOT benefits that used to be available to all, but are instead new and different benefits that never used to be available to anyone. NPR, for example, offers sponsorships at different levels with different bundles of benefits (like free a free tee shirt or umbrella), but it doesn't say "If you don't become a financially contributing member, you can still listen to most of our programming but no longer to "Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me," "Car Talk," or "This American Life." It's possible that by limiting even one former benefit of free membership to VIP members (for example, participation in UU-sponsored contests), you've created the perception that something is being withheld unless a free member is willing to pay for it by becoming a VIP member. That feels coercive to people, even though I know that nobody at UU intended to be or even seem coercive.
To answer your specific question, I prefer "supporter" to "VIP" (having suggested supporter in the otehr thread), but I don't know that changing the name addresses the perception problem. You may wish to rethink, at least for existing free members, devising a VIP program that doesn't feel like it takes anything away from existing free members that they didn't already have access to here, and instead providing people who sign up as VIPs with new benefits that don't now exist on the site or, as marymac suggested, no new benefit at all but just the opportunity to offer monetary support.
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marymac
Well-known member
Chuck - you ARE the king. Haven't you been reading these forums?!
I agree with you, Chuck. In the thread introducing the VIP program, I asked if something could be done to permit me to delete my VIP designation. I don't get anything out of being publicly acknowledged for providing financial support, and being singled out for doing so only makes me feel as if I'm being treated differently from those who haven't joined the VIP program. My having given money to UU is really nobody's business anyway.
H
Hippie Dribble
Guest
don't like the title VIP at all. It signifies an us/them mentality and is utterly divisive of a united membership whose company we all enjoy daily. I really like "UU supporter" much better. VIP just has too many perjorative associations inherent to the name which runs against the spirit of what I consider the UU to be about.
That said, I was always happy to make the $45 donation per year as soon as I found out about it, just didn't like the divide implicit in the title. We receive a lot from this awesome site. I have learnt very much since I joined up and am incredibly appreciative of all the work Ryan, Aaron and Aldrine do to keep it running. The other side is, a forum like this is only as valuable as the posts made by members. I feel that we should all contribute the $45. If we can't afford that, then a nominal donation should be allowed which would see the same benefits enjoyed by all. Lets keep a level playing field. I hate the idea of dividing up the boards.
That said, I was always happy to make the $45 donation per year as soon as I found out about it, just didn't like the divide implicit in the title. We receive a lot from this awesome site. I have learnt very much since I joined up and am incredibly appreciative of all the work Ryan, Aaron and Aldrine do to keep it running. The other side is, a forum like this is only as valuable as the posts made by members. I feel that we should all contribute the $45. If we can't afford that, then a nominal donation should be allowed which would see the same benefits enjoyed by all. Lets keep a level playing field. I hate the idea of dividing up the boards.
OldePhart
Well-known member
Heh, heh. I don't think there is much chance that we're all going to run off and abandon anybody here. The contests forum will still be the Contests forum. Those of us who enjoy helping newbies are still going to check in on the Beginners forum frequently. I don't see myself abandoning Uke Talk or Ukulele Tips or...well...any of the other stuff here that I have always frequented (some may be wishing I would ).
For me and, I think, most of the other "VIP" supporters it's not about buying a title - or titles at all. So far the general concensus in our "secret handshake forum" seems to be that the coolest two benefits are the larger PM box and the ability to give ourselves silly titles in place of the standard "Senior Member," and I think those are pretty legit perks for people who are able and willing to support the site financially. About the only thing y'all have missed so far is a couple of nuts strippin' down and runnin' round nekkid - or at least, they claim to have, I shut my eyes.
In short, I don't think that anything that is here is going away, or likely to be less interesting. Is it legitimate to let those who help pay for things have a few perks, I think so, though the perks aren't why I ponied up.
I've run web sites (including some quite popular ones) and from that I can tell you three things discovered from experience:
1) Almost nobody uses "tip jars." It just doesn't happen. Even those who might be inclined to (and there seem to be darned few who are) they forget, etc). I once used a tip jar on a very popular forum. There were probably 500 active members and many of them were getting referals from their participation there that they were making money from. I got an email from the guy running the web site thanking me - I was the first one to use the tip jar in over a year.
2) Almost nobody remembers or bothers to use the banner ads when they're shopping. Even my personal friends would usually forget to click through from my site when they went shopping online at retailers they knew I was affiliated with.
3) Running a forum is a royal pain with almost no reward for those running it - you may notice that you don't see Rayan and the guys participating here a lot - there's good reason for that. When the forum owners try to "hang out" and cut loose with the gang they get inundated with requests, end up hurting people's feelings, etc. When a forum has a few thousand members you can't hardly crack a joke without hurting somebody's feelings. Heck, if you participate in one thread and not another, somebody gets their little feelings hurt over that! Pretty soon you burn out and just don't want to go there anymore. The guys that hacked my forum several years ago did me a huge favor - I had backups and could have restored it in about thirty minutes but I decided, "why bother?"
So, for those who are uncomfortable with the idea of paid supporters (whether you call them VIP, benefactor, or late for dinner) why not consider this - the alternative might one day be Rayan et. al. getting completely burned out and saying, "why bother?"
John
).For me and, I think, most of the other "VIP" supporters it's not about buying a title - or titles at all. So far the general concensus in our "secret handshake forum" seems to be that the coolest two benefits are the larger PM box and the ability to give ourselves silly titles in place of the standard "Senior Member," and I think those are pretty legit perks for people who are able and willing to support the site financially. About the only thing y'all have missed so far is a couple of nuts strippin' down and runnin' round nekkid - or at least, they claim to have, I shut my eyes.
In short, I don't think that anything that is here is going away, or likely to be less interesting. Is it legitimate to let those who help pay for things have a few perks, I think so, though the perks aren't why I ponied up.
I've run web sites (including some quite popular ones) and from that I can tell you three things discovered from experience:
1) Almost nobody uses "tip jars." It just doesn't happen. Even those who might be inclined to (and there seem to be darned few who are) they forget, etc). I once used a tip jar on a very popular forum. There were probably 500 active members and many of them were getting referals from their participation there that they were making money from. I got an email from the guy running the web site thanking me - I was the first one to use the tip jar in over a year.
2) Almost nobody remembers or bothers to use the banner ads when they're shopping. Even my personal friends would usually forget to click through from my site when they went shopping online at retailers they knew I was affiliated with.
3) Running a forum is a royal pain with almost no reward for those running it - you may notice that you don't see Rayan and the guys participating here a lot - there's good reason for that. When the forum owners try to "hang out" and cut loose with the gang they get inundated with requests, end up hurting people's feelings, etc. When a forum has a few thousand members you can't hardly crack a joke without hurting somebody's feelings. Heck, if you participate in one thread and not another, somebody gets their little feelings hurt over that! Pretty soon you burn out and just don't want to go there anymore. The guys that hacked my forum several years ago did me a huge favor - I had backups and could have restored it in about thirty minutes but I decided, "why bother?"
So, for those who are uncomfortable with the idea of paid supporters (whether you call them VIP, benefactor, or late for dinner) why not consider this - the alternative might one day be Rayan et. al. getting completely burned out and saying, "why bother?"
John
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