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View Full Version : Playing from Sheet Music vs Learning the Song/Lyrics - Poll



Ukuleleblues
05-14-2011, 11:05 AM
Just curious as to how many folks learn full songs (chords/lyrics) vs how many play from printed music.

The question is if you were handed a uke could you play and sing a full song with no sheet music to look at.

Big debate in our uke club.

fitncrafty
05-14-2011, 11:15 AM
I learn full songs and play them from sheet music but eventually I learn them when I play enough. I think in 8 months I can play 3-4 songs from memory, but that's growing each week. Took me about 5 months to learn one song by heart...

Lori
05-14-2011, 01:30 PM
I have a harder time memorizing songs than I used to. These days I am lucky to have 1 or 2 songs memorized for uke. But, I used to have maybe 10 songs committed to memory when I used to play classical guitar or banjo. It is strange though... once a song is memorized, it seems to just kind of flow out your fingers. If I play a lot of memorized songs, I find my tab/ notation reading gets rusty. I have a lot of songs I practice a lot, but still need the tabs. But relying on tabs has improved my sight reading for new songs, so there are some benefits. Not that I really have a choice...

–Lori

mm stan
05-14-2011, 02:00 PM
Actually when I play songs I remember ..if I remember..I don't play note for note....I play it always different as my mood changes so does how I play and how creative I am at the moment.

ksiegel
05-14-2011, 02:05 PM
Trick question - I can't read tabs or standard notation, but I CAN read Chord Names/diagrams.

If I know the tune, I can approximate the song. If it falls into the I/IV/V or Circle of Fifths patterns (concepts I knew nothing about, even after 40 years of playing guitar), then I can play it.

Give me lyrics, and play the song for me, and if you don't hand me a boatload of weirdo chords, I can give it a shot, and usually make it recognizable.

Memorizing a song is another thing entirely - I can often memorize the tune, but not the lyrics. If I knowthe tune, I can approximate the song. Does that count?

-Kurt

Hippie Dribble
05-14-2011, 02:06 PM
I like to play from memory wherever possible. I just feel that it makes for a more natural and 'free' performance.

I feel like my playing and singing is more labored, stilted and mechanical if I have to read from paper.

TCK
05-14-2011, 02:23 PM
I tend to play them at first from chord diagrams. I am now looking for sheets on some to arrange for fingerpicking...but the goal is always to do them from memory. Takes a couple of days and I forget ten of my students names when I learn a new one, but oh well ;)

Raygf
05-14-2011, 03:05 PM
Just curious as to how many folks learn full songs (chords/lyrics) vs how many play from printed music.
The question is if you were handed a uke could you play and sing a full song with no sheet music to look at.
Big debate in our uke club.

Absolutely, but I've been playing/performing for a long time. In a performance situation, I feel it shows respect for my audience to know the music. I also feel I never really know a piece until I play it for others. That's where I really learn it and sharing it helps to retain the music. I often play new tunes for others before a performance to help memorize. When I don't practice/perform the repertoire suffers (go figure), but I can still play lots of songs and instrumental pieces from memory. If I'm background music, I play from memory and music (standard notation, tablature and chord charts). I call these "wallpaper" gigs and love playing this way. (I don't have to work as hard preparing.)

I learn most of my music from tabs and chord charts these days (instant gratification) and it seems to take longer to memorize and retain, especially from tab. When I read from standard notation I memorize more quickly and retain the tune longer.

So, what prompted the debate at your uke club?

Regards,
Ray

Pippin
05-14-2011, 03:34 PM
I play hundreds of songs with no sheet music and no lyric cheat-sheets.

TheOnlyUkeThatMatters
05-14-2011, 04:34 PM
I grew up playing in bands, so memorizing songs comes naturally to me. Lately, though, I've been playing songs from sheet music---especially old ukulele method books by Cliff Edwards and May Singhi Breen. And if I'm jamming with people, I'm more than happy to look at lyrics/chords to help the jam get going. Whatever works, as long as I'm strumming, singing, and having a good time.

SuzukHammer
05-14-2011, 11:02 PM
I know lots of songs at about 50%. I don't want to know too many songs by heart because my goal is to learn music theory and techniques rather then whole songs because I do not perform (yet).

I am starting to only look for music with whole standard notation. I look at all the melody and make sure the uke can handle the note range. As such, the 3 minute songs will take some time. I now try to look for songs I can play in 1 to 1-1/2 minute durations which is half the 200 seconds of a typical song.

This is a good question as I think lots of people just think strumming is knowing the song. If you sing, you must know the melody, if you want to play the signature riffs and solos, then that adds another level. I think if a person has a job and is not a professional musician, there is not enough time to build up a complex repertroire (sic)

KevinV
05-15-2011, 12:42 AM
My goal with any song is to learn it from memory over time. To get there I use any combination of lead sheets, sheet music, tabs, and transcribing from the recording. It just depends on what's available and the level of complexity of the piece.

Uke Whisperer
05-15-2011, 05:17 AM
Probably two. I can usually play from sheet music . Being able to learn and to remember something has become more and more difficult for me BUT I LOVE EVERY MINUTE SPENT WITH THE UKES!

ukulefty
05-15-2011, 06:46 AM
I have a goldfish memory.

I can usually get the tabs/chords down pretty quick, it's the words that get me! I usually forget halfway through or think I know the lyrics when in fact I've got totally the wrong end of the stick.... lol

Teek
05-15-2011, 07:16 AM
When I was a kid I memorized about 50 favorite poems, including a couple of Shakespeare's sonnets, and still have a few of them in there. Now getting three songs all the way through from memory is a challenge. However my job requires I be something of a walking rolodex for my fussy boss, and I think that along with age and not enough consistent practice time just sucks up my allotment of recycleable memory cells for each day.

uke4ia
05-15-2011, 08:04 AM
Just curious as to how many folks learn full songs (chords/lyrics) vs how many play from printed music.

The question is if you were handed a uke could you play and sing a full song with no sheet music to look at.

Big debate in our uke club.

I'm not sure what you're asking. I've got around 40 songs memorized that I could play from memory. Of the ones I didn't write myself, there's only a couple that I figured out the chords myself from listening to the song. Most of them I learned from sheet music or getting the chords off Ultimate-Guitar.com. If you're asking if you could hand me a uke and name a song, could I play the song by ear, the answer is no.

OldePhart
05-15-2011, 09:42 AM
I have a really hard time memorizing most things. I can do it, but unless there's a really good reason not to I much prefer to have a lead sheet to play and sing from. I've been working memorizing a couple of songs for UWC 'cause I figure I'd look pretty silly trying to keep track of lead sheets in an open field.

John

Whiskat
05-15-2011, 09:54 AM
I'm still very new to the Uke, but isn't playing fully by ear normal among uke players too? I started out on the harmonica, and among harmonica players tabs is a BIG no-no!

I have done some cheating and looked up the chords for some songs, and some I have watched on youtube and used my eyes and ears to figuere out the chords. What I've learned so far is that singing the melody makes it a lot easier to figuere out the chords, so once I get comfortable with strumming and singing at the same time I believe playing songs by ear will become much easier.

When it comes to melodies I always do them by ear. I can't play any melody on standing feet, but if I spend a few days singing and humming it, it usually comes out eventually.

Ukuleleblues
05-15-2011, 12:44 PM
Since my question was a little confusing for a few folks, let me reword it a litttel more precisely.

If you walked into a room and were handed a ukulele. You were then told for each song you could play and sing of your choice, from begining to end, 100% from memory (no written words, tabs sheet music, etc.) you would get $1.

How many dollars would you make?

Plainsong
05-15-2011, 02:54 PM
I'm one of those that grew up playing, so memorizing a song is just kind of part of it. I remember before I got into the HS band I was nervous about memorizing a ten minute show. It just comes from playing the song a lot. Not to say that the fingers won't have minds of their own if it's been a while since playing it.

I feel dumb that I skipped the boring scale-learning part so that I can't read sheet music very fast with the instrument I actually play. It's really frustrating and I did it to myself.

I suppose I could make 100 bucks but then people would demand it back because of the quantity over quality!

Kem
05-15-2011, 03:21 PM
Like Plainsong, I grew up playing the uke. I play mostly by ear, with the occasional help from lyric/chord sheets. I arrange music for my band (we do a lot of singing in harmony) and find that by the time I'm finished a particular arrangement, I've usually more or less memorised the song. However, it's not rigid memorisation but simply a knowledge of how the chords interact with the melody and harmony. I believe strenuously in the joys of improvisation, especially where finger-picking is concerned. When I'm playing solo, I do a lot of improvising and therefore find it hard to quantify the "number of songs I know." I know a lot of songs. Even if I can't play them perfectly, I can often follow along, as long as I'm familiar with the relevant chords.

For context: I'm classically trained on the flute and therefore can read the treble clef fluently. I play the piano mainly by ear or, occasionally, with the aid of fake books or chord sheets; I'm not great at sight-reading the bass clef, though I can manage it. I don't like tabs. Unlike sheet music, they allow people to play without necessarily understanding how the individual notes relate to each other. I would rather know a song well enough that I can work it out myself, though I recognise that not everyone feels this way.

LimuHead
05-15-2011, 03:34 PM
Although I could perform for an hour or 2 without lyrics, I rarely do. I usually take requests so having the 'Na Mele Aloha' (da blue) book with me is very handy. It's also useful in deciding what song to do next.

I like having my Nilton music stand in front of me because the lower tray holds my clock, extra picks, cloth and tuner.

I recently downloaded a lot of Hawaiian lyric files to pdf, and have a neat little laptop to use them with, but haven't as yet. I'd rather have a book fall onto a beery floor than my laptop.

Aldon

OldePhart
05-15-2011, 03:42 PM
Since my question was a little confusing for a few folks, let me reword it a litttel more precisely.

If you walked into a room and were handed a ukulele. You were then told for each song you could play and sing of your choice, from begining to end, 100% from memory (no written words, tabs sheet music, etc.) you would get $1.

How many dollars would you make?

Well, I was going to say maybe $3 if I was lucky but then I came up with a better plan. I'll grab that uke and start playing and singing and promise that I will stop playing and singing after I've collected $100 in donations. I figure I probably will have the $100 before I have finished the three songs that I know from memory - and $100 is a much better haul than $3. LOL

John

itsme
05-15-2011, 03:56 PM
I have never been good at memorizing anything, so I play from sheets. I do know how to read standard notation on classical guitar, but the uke's tuning is different so I learned tab on uke.

I will say that I've gotten to where after a couple read thrus, I can mentally translate a high-G tab so I can play it on a low-G uke and have the notes come out on the right octave when the note is critical to the piece. :p

Plainsong
05-16-2011, 02:51 PM
Wait it sounds like I grew up on uke. Noooo. I learned to read music with one of those awful but effective Flutophones in the 3rd grade. It stuck, and I remembered it when ai begged my parents for a clarinet in the 5th grade. In the two years between I had a church choir director who insisted that the kids learn from the sheet music.. So I just meant that Im as comfortable with notation as my skill level allows. But not on the uke, sadly, and it's my fault.

I played or sang all through and after college and majored in it, but I'm a mediocre wind instrument type at best. My sight reading is reliable but that's about it.


Like Plainsong, I grew up playing the uke. I play mostly by ear, with the occasional help from lyric/chord sheets. I arrange music for my band (we do a lot of singing in harmony) and find that by the time I'm finished a particular arrangement, I've usually more or less memorised the song. However, it's not rigid memorisation but simply a knowledge of how the chords interact with the melody and harmony. I believe strenuously in the joys of improvisation, especially where finger-picking is concerned. When I'm playing solo, I do a lot of improvising and therefore find it hard to quantify the "number of songs I know." I know a lot of songs. Even if I can't play them perfectly, I can often follow along, as long as I'm familiar with the relevant chords.

For context: I'm classically trained on the flute and therefore can read the treble clef fluently. I play the piano mainly by ear or, occasionally, with the aid of fake books or chord sheets; I'm not great at sight-reading the bass clef, though I can manage it. I don't like tabs. Unlike sheet music, they allow people to play without necessarily understanding how the individual notes relate to each other. I would rather know a song well enough that I can work it out myself, though I recognise that not everyone feels this way.

franulele
05-16-2011, 03:03 PM
I took folk guitar for a couple of years as a child in the 70s child so I did a lot of playing from a chordsheet (lyrics + chords) which helped me develop a feel for rhythmic strumming, melody & basic harmonies. Later, I took up a school band instrument (clarinet, then, trombone) which emphasized the reading skills needed for band , orchestra & jazz band, but did nothing for the skill of memorization. The really great thing about taking up ukulele is that it has helped me integrate both types of music processing for me. One thing I don't do very well though is reading TABs. I only do it on a very basic level.

mr moonlight
05-16-2011, 03:38 PM
I haven't been playing uke for all that long, so I'd get around $12 in my hat. I have played the guitar for over 20 years, so it definitely did help quite a bit. Now I actually play my uke more than my guitar!

bbqribs
05-17-2011, 06:19 AM
For those of you who have so many songs memorized, I am curious; Do the chords just flow out? Do you ever think about the name of the chord while you're playing? (A D7 goes here...) Is it different to memorize a song with lyrics rather than without? I am astounded: I do not even have money for coffee in my case, in my case. Also, I can pick melodies given time, but it is almost impossible for me to find chords by ear.

Ken Middleton
05-17-2011, 06:30 AM
For those of you who have so many songs memorized, I am curious; Do the chords just flow out? Do you ever think about the name of the chord while you're playing? (A D7 goes here...) Is it different to memorize a song with lyrics rather than without? I am astounded: I do not even have money for coffee in my case, in my case. Also, I can pick melodies given time, but it is almost impossible for me to find chords by ear.

Lots of players on this forum don't memorize the chords to songs, but work them out as they are playing them. They can play literally hundreds and hundreds of songs this way. People who play this way don't think about the chords at all, they just play. Some people, like me, can't remember words very well though.

OldePhart
05-17-2011, 06:34 AM
Hey, progress, I think I'm up to four songs now. My goal is to have at least eight or nine memorized by UWC - though I'll probably forget them within a week. :(

What's really sad is when you can't play even the songs you've written from memory! :mad:

John

SailingUke
05-17-2011, 06:48 AM
I believe it is important to be able to play songs from memory.
Most folks (me included) tend to sound mechanical to me when playing from a sheet.
When you can listen to what you are playing you can put some feeling into it.
If you play the chord progression and listen to the changes you will be surprised how quick you can learn a new song.
A lot of my friends claim they can't remember lyrics, but can sing 100's of songs with the radio or album.
It is darn near impossible to read chords, lyrics and sing at the same time, your brain is on overload.
Throw in trying to keep time and listen to what is happening and you are really fighting a losing battle.
Next time you go to a jam, listen to what is being played and see if you can follow along, you will be surprised.
At home start with a two chord song and play it by ear, then move on to three & four chord songs.

peewee
05-17-2011, 06:57 AM
Lots of players on this forum don't memorize the chords to songs, but work them out as they are playing them. They can play literally hundreds and hundreds of songs this way. People who play this way don't think about the chords at all, they just play.
First of all: I am not an accomplished musician.
I've been working from tablature / chord sheets, and it sometimes feels like training a bear to ride a bike. I learn the song to muscle memory without an understanding of the musical mechanics that cause one chord/note to follow another.
I have a vague mathematical understanding that each key corresponds to a scale of individual melodic notes with various variations (major, minor, blues), and I'm kind of getting to I-IV-V and circle of fifths, but on a very theoretical analytic level.
It's astonishing to me to see more accomplished musicians follow most any tune in any key in real time, how does one get there, Is there a breakthrough moment or is it just a question of keeping at it?

I went to the Topanga Banjo Fiddle Contest over the weekend and groups of musicians, strangers, were playing bluegrass tunes, harmonizing and trading solos, it all sounded fantastic, but I would be lost trying to follow along even in that predictable setting.

BTW, I could maybe pull in $7.00 but that is pure physical memorization, and I would be completely useless in a different key, and if there was an audience, I would probably panic and play 5'2" over and over again until I got the hook.

JT_Ukes
05-17-2011, 06:58 AM
i have learned and played prolly hundreds of songs.. but only have room in my head for about 3 at a time :)

Kem
05-17-2011, 08:42 AM
First of all: I am not an accomplished musician.
I've been working from tablature / chord sheets, and it sometimes feels like training a bear to ride a bike. I learn the song to muscle memory without an understanding of the musical mechanics that cause one chord/note to follow another.
I have a vague mathematical understanding that each key corresponds to a scale of individual melodic notes with various variations (major, minor, blues), and I'm kind of getting to I-IV-V and circle of fifths, but on a very theoretical analytic level.
It's astonishing to me to see more accomplished musicians follow most any tune in any key in real time, how does one get there, Is there a breakthrough moment or is it just a question of keeping at it?

I went to the Topanga Banjo Fiddle Contest over the weekend and groups of musicians, strangers, were playing bluegrass tunes, harmonizing and trading solos, it all sounded fantastic, but I would be lost trying to follow along even in that predictable setting.

BTW, I could maybe pull in $7.00 but that is pure physical memorization, and I would be completely useless in a different key, and if there was an audience, I would probably panic and play 5'2" over and over again until I got the hook.

For the "playing any tune in any key in real time" skill, you basically need an intimate knowledge of every aspect of your instrument. I can do this on the piano, the first instrument I learned to play properly by ear, but I remember that for years, I was scared of playing in any key but C. I could play beautifully in C but balked at improvising in other keys (C is still my favourite). Gradually, I developed the ability to translate the C chords, scales, and patterns into every other possible key. Where most people think I-IV-V (etc.), I still have a tendency to think C-F-G while automatically transposing. I wouldn't exactly recommend this method, but it does work for me. It confuses the hell out of everybody else. I've been known to go, "Okay, imagine this song is in C," at which point everybody attempts to lynch me. I've come to terms with the fact that my brain works rather oddly and that most people can't switch from D to Gb by thinking of both of them as actually being in C.

Granted, I can't quite do this on the ukulele; I'm really still on the "afraid to play in any key but C" stage when I'm improvising on the uke. I can improvise in any key on the piano and accordion (it's actually quite logical on the accordion, as the bass notes and chords are arranged as per the circle of fifths). But the advice still stands: learn your instrument intimately, and don't be afraid to spend a long time doing so. Shortcuts will allow you to do some neat stuff quickly but not to master the instrument completely.

Pippin
05-17-2011, 09:01 AM
i have learned and played prolly hundreds of songs.. but only have room in my head for about 3 at a time :)

It's all that Tampa Bay water in your head... next dip, jump up and down on one foot with your head tilted one way and then the other. Works for me. ;)

Joe H
05-17-2011, 09:06 AM
As hard as I try, I can't seem to be able to remember chords.

Pippin
05-17-2011, 09:10 AM
Is there a breakthrough moment or is it just a question of keeping at it?

No, there is no real break-through moment.

I grew up playing country music with some of the biggest names in Nashville. My mother was a country music songwriter with a Nashville contract. So, it comes down to this... MANY, MANY, MANY (is that enough emphasis?) songs amount to three BASIC chords... like G-C-D or E-A-D (for example). Lots of three-chord songs exist in country music. If you know that the key is "G", you know that the root of the song is G-C-D and everything else fits within that range in various subtle nuances. So, learn the basic chord sets and you can always play along with anything-- even if you are not entirely familiar with it, as long as the meter is right, the chords in the root will most often get you going. Thousands of songs can be learned this way in a short amount of time... as long as you know the basic melody and rhythm.

uke4ia
05-17-2011, 10:35 AM
For those of you who have so many songs memorized, I am curious; Do the chords just flow out? Do you ever think about the name of the chord while you're playing? (A D7 goes here...) Is it different to memorize a song with lyrics rather than without? I am astounded: I do not even have money for coffee in my case, in my case. Also, I can pick melodies given time, but it is almost impossible for me to find chords by ear.

I remember them by the hand positioning more than by actually thinking about the chord name while I'm playing. Muscle memory. It's easier to memorize a song without lyrics, although I'd probably be playing something more intricate during an instrumental. For a song with three verses, for example, you'd be playing the same chords each time, while you not only have to remember three verses worth of lyrics, but also make sure you don't sing lyrics from the third verse while you're playing the second.

jtafaro
05-17-2011, 10:57 AM
When I play the fiddle I need the sheet music to learn the song. But with the uke I can learn from a lyric sheet with the chords. If I know the melody and or the words it's easier to learn the songs but if I don't know it at all it's much harder to learn and retain. But none of this is any good if you don't perform the song on a regular basis. If you can understand the I IV V chord progression and you know the words you don't necessarily need sheet music or tabs.

cheekmeat
05-17-2011, 11:01 AM
I too have experienced more trouble memorizing lyrics as I have gotten older. Depending on the song I have less trouble remembering chords. I do not like having a music stand when performing for an audience. I always have some memorized and ready to go, and others that with a little review I can get going with a little notice. Sometimes I give myself lyric notes on the setlist for a particularly troublesome lyric.

Uncle Rod Higuchi
05-17-2011, 11:03 AM
Hi Folks,

OK, I'm a singer strummer much more than a picker, and I love lyric sheets (words and chords). It may look UN-professional, but then I don't usually get paid anyway. I'm not sure about 'respecting the audience' by NOT using sheet music. I can see how that would be very impressive, but, and maybe I'm just lazy here, I'd much rather be able to play many, many songs that my audience could enjoy, than simply confine them to the songs I happen to have memorized.
I'm NOT trying to start an argument, nor am I demeaning what anyone else does. I just happen to like using 'help' in the form of song sheets when I play for myself and for others, even at a formal gig.

That being said, I think the way to use song sheets well is to be familiar with what you're using and to make sure it's in very LARGE print so you can find your way around the song easily. I try to do one song per page if possible with large print and I even highlight (yellow or pink) the chord names so I can look for them easily. I know some professional entertainers (who use song sheets) use very, very large print with one song per 2 facing pages. Not a bad idea, but it makes for a very large 3-ring binder. But then everybody behind you can read the lyrics from 3 rows back!

Like so many of you, I can play songs from memory simply because I've played them a lot (spaced repetition). There are some songs that 'scare' me because of their unique chords and chord progressions. But if I've played them a lot, even these become familiar after a while. So practice, play, have fun and don't put too much pressure on yourself, unless you're preparing for a performance. In that case practice, play, have fun... seriously and on purpose.

Whatever you do, keep uke'in',

bbqribs
05-17-2011, 11:05 AM
I am starting to feel the patterns in hand position and common clusters in songs (bootcamp) I've entered afew contests, and the best thing I learned was that I can memorize a song. I also learned that the singing falls apart while I am insecure about the chords and then some. I think the songs went to short term memory, which is sad. I think I could bring them back up to playing speed quickly, however. Bottom line: practice more (shop for ukes less!)

OldePhart
05-17-2011, 11:46 AM
Bottom line: practice more (shop for ukes less!)

Excellent advice - that would make a pretty good sig. :)

joeybug
05-17-2011, 12:41 PM
I'd make about $5 if that, and mostly from songs I've written myself and played so much I know the chord progression, words I'm a bit iffy on, for now I'm focussing on learning chords and songs and then tabs and then maybe I'll have space in my brain to remember actual songs!

Papa Tom
05-17-2011, 01:09 PM
Having spent my life as a drummer, and having memorized thousands of songs (as much as a drummer needs to actually "memorize" any song), I've been really disappointed in how hard it's been to memorize the chord changes to even simple uke tunes. I think it's just that I'm older now and life is more complicated. I go through periods where I've got 3-4 songs committed to memory - but then I move on to 3-4 OTHER songs and I quickly forget the original batch!

Loupin' Flech
05-17-2011, 02:38 PM
I always use sheets,but you should just do whatever you're comfortable with.It would certainly give you a lot of freedom to play without sheets,but then look at orchestras,brass bands etc.Frankly,I'm just glad I can play full stop!

brunette_moment
05-17-2011, 02:44 PM
:p
"The question is if you were handed a uke ..."

Depending on what kind of uke it is and how shiny, I might just run, very quickly, in the opposite direction. :p

olgoat52
05-17-2011, 04:33 PM
I play hundreds of songs with no sheet music and no lyric cheat-sheets.

LOL!! I absolutely hate you!!:o:o:o

Plainsong
05-18-2011, 01:30 PM
For those of you who have so many songs memorized, I am curious; Do the chords just flow out? Do you ever think about the name of the chord while you're playing? (A D7 goes here...) Is it different to memorize a song with lyrics rather than without? I am astounded: I do not even have money for coffee in my case, in my case. Also, I can pick melodies given time, but it is almost impossible for me to find chords by ear.

All those ear training courses, my ear should be better than it is. My husband is awesome at this, and he grew up playing whatever by ear. As for thinking about the names of chords, it depends on how familiar I am with the song.

What annoys me sometimes is if I'm just riffing on some chord strums, and I stumble across a song I know, but don't like. Just the other night, I kept running into Coldplay hanging out on my fretboard. I couldn't avoid them! My husband was giggling at me from the kitchen as he had evening tea.

bbqribs
05-18-2011, 05:12 PM
Excellent advice - that would make a pretty good sig. :)

lol You don't know the half of it!