Solid/Laminate/Vener

savagehenry

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I know this has been discussed at great length, but I'm still confused. I own all solid wood ukuleles and agree that they sound better than most laminates. What I want to know is what if you just have a solid top. Does the sides and back have that much influence on sound? How would solid sides and back differ from laminate sides and back or solid sides and back with a cosmetic veneer? Any thoughts or input is welcome, thanks.
 
You will not get a definitive answer, as you have already discovered. There are some who say that a solid back lends sympathetic vibration to the top. In other words the sound waves that the top creates make the back vibrate and that creates its own sound. There are others who say that its best to just let the back reflect the sound, and don't want it to vibrate and absorb any, since all vibration has some losses. I would say from what I have read that most agree the sides don't contribute much to the sound.

All that said, I don't think solid backs and sides add much to a ukulele's sound. There are many fine guitars what are purposely built with laminate backs and sides, and makers say they do it for better sound. It is worth noting that the Sailor brand ukuleles have backs and sides made from a sandwich of poplar and cherry, or other woods on the outside, and inside, but they have solid tops. They get good reviews and the two that I have played sounded good to me. I think a lot of what luthiers build they build because that is what people will buy, so there is a lot of tradition that goes into it. Most people (myself included) just will not pay as much for a laminate back and sided uke as we will for an all solid because we know they traditionally cost less. Since most of the cost of a custom ukulele is labor, if I were a luthier, I would probably only make all solid ukes and charge a higher margin on them.

I own and love an all solid mahogany Ohana soprano, but when I was deciding what tenor to make my main player I played a lot of them, both solid and laminate. In the end, I thought the solid tops with laminate backs and sides sounded as good if not better than any of the all solids I did A-B comparisons on.

In other words, I think it is mostly the top that makes the difference. How the luthier puts it all together is also important and a good one can even make pallet wood sound great.
 
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I have an all solid wood Mainland tenor (cedar top/rosewood back,sides), and a solid spruce top laminate mahogany back and sides Kala tenor. To me the Mainland sound better. I don't know if it's the solid wood or the choice of wood or the construction. The Kala sounds great but IMO the Mainland is better.
 
I also agree with something that Pete Howlett said that many ukulele players hear with their eyes, and not there ears. I think I would add that we can also hear with our imaginations sometimes - at least I know I do. That is why I love controlled A-B tests so much.
 
I know this is just anecdotal evidence based on fewer ukes than many of the UU'ers have played or heard, but I think that all things being equal, a laminate uke with a solid top tends to sound better as the size of uke the increases. I know this is subjective, but it seems so to my ears. I also understand that better quality laminates with solid tops tend to have better construction methods, bracing, better quality laminates, and better quality solid tops, so that has to be a factor. I guess the operative concept here is that "quality shows." I've noticed a few top uke makers are putting either exotic solid tops on a solid mahogany body, or a good quality top and good quality exotic laminate bodies. Hmmmm, maybe you can have your cake and .......etc
 
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In other words, I think it is mostly the top that makes the difference. How the luthier puts it all together is also important and a good one can even make pallet wood sound great.

Thanks, I was also really impressed with the pallet build. I've been thinking of getting a Sailor Brand and I know that they are luthier made in the USA. I think a mahogany tenor Sailor would be pretty sweet, may just have to find out for myself.
 
Thanks, I was also really impressed with the pallet build. I've been thinking of getting a Sailor Brand and I know that they are luthier made in the USA. I think a mahogany tenor Sailor would be pretty sweet, may just have to find out for myself.

I was waiting for that note to chime in. As a Sailor owner & one who's gone through a BUNCH of ukes, I have to agree w/SweetWaterBlue & others in regard to the importance of the solid top wood. The Sailor uke is extremely well made; even the "laminate" back & sides are purposefully built to add, not detract from the overall instrument's sound. The spruce top is selected for its resonance & the whole instrument is carefully made to exacting standards. The standards are the same as the other instruments coming from this luthier's shop for many, many years. I really don't think you can go wrong if you get a Sailor; it is simply the best deal for your $$ for an American-manufactured ukulele.
 
I was waiting for that note to chime in. As a Sailor owner & one who's gone through a BUNCH of ukes, I have to agree w/SweetWaterBlue & others in regard to the importance of the solid top wood. The Sailor uke is extremely well made; even the "laminate" back & sides are purposefully built to add, not detract from the overall instrument's sound. The spruce top is selected for its resonance & the whole instrument is carefully made to exacting standards. The standards are the same as the other instruments coming from this luthier's shop for many, many years. I really don't think you can go wrong if you get a Sailor; it is simply the best deal for your $$ for an American-manufactured ukulele.

Thanks, you've given me a lot of guidance in my short time here at UU and have always been right on the money, no pun intended Gmoney.
 
... There are many fine guitars what are purposely built with laminate backs and sides, and makers say they do it for better sound.... I think a lot of what luthiers build they build because that is what people will buy... Most people (myself included) just will not pay as much for a laminate back and sided uke as we will for an all solid because we know they traditionally cost less.
Since most of the cost of a custom ukulele is labor, if I were a luthier, I would probably only make all solid ukes and charge a higher margin on them.

Sad, but true. Small builders have a vested interest in the "solid wood advantage". As SWB says, work less - charge more, and people will hear what they want to hear.

A lot of the confusion about laminates comes from the fact that a mass produced cheap laminate back really does sound bad. Worse than a good solid without question. Comparing those to a "luthier grade laminate" is like apples to oranges.
 
A lot of the confusion about laminates comes from the fact that a mass produced cheap laminate back really does sound bad. Worse than a good solid without question. Comparing those to a "luthier grade laminate" is like apples to oranges.

I guess I've only been at this a short time and it's already been drilled into my head that solid wood is good and laminate is bad.
 
I guess I've only been at this a short time and it's already been drilled into my head that solid wood is good and laminate is bad.

It's more than understandable. With ukuleles there have never been many good laminates until very recently. Most people's experience has been only with the cheap stuff.
 
On mass produced ukes, the best example of a good laminate is the Kiwaya. Their laminate sopranos sound better than some solid wood ukes. Listen the PDXUkes sound samples on sound cloud to see what I mean. At the same time, their laminate doesn't sound quite as good to my ears (and as I recall PDX's ears) as the solid wood SK-35, but you have to listen closely. On the other hand, compare one to something like an LU-21 and your ears will probably pick up on the differences easily. Its not that an LU-21 sounds bad by any means, its just that an SK-35 sounds better, and a Koaloha sounds even better than that. For most of us, even a Makala Dolphin sounds better than we can play.
 
Torres once made a guitar out of papier mache to prove that most of the sound quality and volume comes from the top and the size of the box vs. the back and sides. Apparently he proved his point. For the back and sides, solid wood or veneer, you will probably not hear much of a difference. Between a Koa top and a Cedar top you most likely will hear a substantial difference.
 
Torres once made a guitar out of papier mache to prove that most of the sound quality and volume comes from the top and the size of the box vs. the back and sides. Apparently he proved his point. For the back and sides, solid wood or veneer, you will probably not hear much of a difference. Between a Koa top and a Cedar top you most likely will hear a substantial difference.

I had to go looking for more about Torres' papier machè guitar & found this video of Davide Ficco playing a Fabio Zontini 2005 replica of Antonio Torres' papier machè guitar.

http://youtu.be/YHJrqJEhob8

More proof that the musician makes the instrument, but also proof of what a master luthier can build w/paper & paste!!!
 
... SNIP... A lot of the confusion about laminates comes from the fact that a mass produced cheap laminate back really does sound bad. Worse than a good solid without question. Comparing those to a "luthier grade laminate" is like apples to oranges.

THAT distinction is what gets lost in many of these conversations. There's a hugh difference in what can only be called "plywood" vs' small batch luthier-made laminates. But, like SWB, even my Dolphin is capable of better sound than I am currently able to pry from it!!
 
More proof that the musician makes the instrument, but also proof of what a master luthier can build w/paper & paste!!!

That guitar sounded amazing. I wonder if I can cut costs by ordering a cardboard uke, hahaha!
I always feel like my instruments sound better when someone who can really play well tries them out, I just gotta keep practicing.
 
If you check out David Ficco playing other guitars, you will realize that he sounds even better with real guitars!!!! I bet these paper mache costs more than any mass produced laminates if you consider the time spent. Again, a great luthier made the paper one and he probably spent hours upon hours making it just right to prove his point. There is a premium to have a famous skilled person make anything custom.

The point that most people are making is that if you have a mass produced solid vs. a mass produced laminate, the solid wil sound better most of the time. We can't compare apples and oranges.
 
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