"Hole'y Joe" Is At It Again,......Sorry Tim, The Bridgeplate Is GONE

"Hole'y Joe" Is At It Again,......Sorry Ken, The Bridgeplate Is GONE

I didn't want to keep jumping in on Ken Timms thread regarding some side bending problems on a recent wood batch, so i thought i would start a new thread on some further changes i made to this soprano.

Quotes from here: http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?52027-10-ukes-forward..6-ukes-back

Timbuck said:

From now on! he will be known to me as "Hole'y Joe"

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Timbuck said:

Chuck !...it was just one board that produced the cracked sides..All the good ones came from another.

farner!...It's a strange tale about that Style "O" type Soprano...I don't normally number my ukes, but that one was "special" being the 160th uke that I've built in the 4 years since I started so it got a number stamped on the headstock..I auctioned on E-bay like I normaly do ..and it went to a Guy in the US..the first thing he did was change the strings (fair enough we all do that) Then he decided he didn't like the friction tuners..and swapped them for geared ones (like sticking ears on it, as they say on Cosmos)...now it was starting to look less like a Style "O" and more like a style "X"...now it's had a hole cut in the lower bout to reduce the bass end tone I presume..co's that is what it will do..and the Guy sent me PM's telling me about all the mod's.. ? should I be impressed?? (Mrs Timbuck ain't)...I would like to know if the value of this uke has now gone up or down...I'm expecting a pick up unit to be fitted to it next ..(along with strap buttons who cares...it's his uke he can do what he wants with it.

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Don't worry, i didn't pop any new holes in this time,...just sort of worked with (or thru) the original a bit. But i seemed to have gotten Ken's permission to do what i wanted with it in the last quote above, ...so i did!

Just after i recieved Timbucks uke from another member, i came across this thread where the subject of some soprono ukes having no top bracing came up.

http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/f...an-unbraced-soprano&highlight=bracing+soprano

That got me convinced i wanted to make a few adjustments on this formally "Style O" soprano. My initial soundport was not the initial change that dropped it from that catagory, as the "eared" geared tuners arrived to me in that condition.

As Ken pointed out, a soundport (especially in the lower bout) does lower the bass notes (on the "C" string mostly), although as i pointed out the "E" string is actually boosted a similiar amount. I will admit the overall balance is better without the port open.

However, what i didn't want to mention right away was the main reason i cut the soundport into this soprano, which was to adjust the bracing to get the sound i was after. (If it didn't work out, you'd never be reading this! )

I read that Ken Timms (timbuck here) does NOT accept commissions, and has specialized in making mostly Martin "Style O" Sopranos, and a few Tenor ukes also. So getting Tim to make me a somewhat custom braced uke was not going to happen. (easily)

I wasn't able to find out exactly how Martin braced the tops on their vintage Style O Sopranos, but i'm assuming Tim looked at an example or two to base his version on. I am not locked into whatever bracing pattern Martin used, which may have even changed over the years they produced this model.

Put as delicately as i dare,....the tone on the uke when it arrived just didn't appeal to me. Not sure how to describe it, but it sounded a bit muffled, with notes sounding thin and a bit dead the further up the neck i went. A string change back to Aquila's helped, as well as a bit higher saddle i made. (i think the PO lowered the original saddle a little as he likes low action).

I have the benefit of owning two of Chuck Moore's sopranos, and because he is not locked into reproducing a certain vintage "style", is more open to making whatever changes are needed for a richer, fuller sounding soprano ukulele. The tone on both of Chuck's soprano's IS what appeals to me, and i was determined to do what i could to get my only "hog" uke as close as i could.

After carefully using a small mirror inside to compare them all,....i decided to remove the fairly wide bridgeplate on the Style O reproduction. It was immediately apparent a chisel would not work, you just couldn't control the angles, and it worked too fast to work in a vision restricted area and be safe.

I decided to make a small sanding block, mounted to a simple piece of 1/2" maple dowel stock i had laying around. The sanding block base was off a piece of maple bridgeplate material i picked up from stew-mac, and the swivel part from a leftover piece of rosewood bridge stock. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, as it just needed to be functionable and not pretty. After supergluing the drilled out rosewood piece to the maple base, and using stick on 120 grit sandpaper to the bottom, i had my "tool" ready in about 45 minutes.

After about an hour, i had the entire bridgeplate sanded off, with just a touch of glue still showing at that far side i didn't worry about. I left that there as a indicator of what had been there previously. I was able to put pressure on the handle, upward against the top, by pressing the handle against my other hand. (it kept the handle from rubbing against the soundport walls)

With a small flashlight stuck thru the soundhole, i could see my progress surprisingly well working thru the soundport. I tried to work the sanding evenly, and as it got down to the glue i slowed down even more. As one area cleared off to the base of the mahogany top, i avoided that area and concentrated on the next until all remnants of the bridgeplate were removed save for that small glue spec noted above.

I also worked the two soundhole braces down to about 1/2 their original height, working thru the hole with a small piece of the same 120 grit stick on sandpaper stuck to my finger. I marked the outside of each brace with a small pencil mark at approximately 1/2 the height, to use as a guide to know when to stop. I might have been able to remove these soundhole braces completely, but decided to wait and see how it sounded the way it was.

I restrung it with a new set of Aquilla nylguts, and carefully brought it up to tension while i kept a careful eye on any signs of the top coming up or distorting. I had layed a thin straightedge in front of the bridge and used it to check for any changes to the top's shape, and none were noted.

The last thing i did was make a temporary black rubber plug for the soundport, until i come up with a more fitting permanent one.

After it settled in and the strings were stretched out, i have to say it was worth ALL the effort i put in. The tone is now full and sweet, and no dead spots on notes at the far end of the fretboard. The volumn has also increased dramatically, and i'm having a ball with it now! I'm putting a hook on the wall becide a bookcase, where it will hang in easy reach whenever i'm in the mood to play.

......Ken mentioned that Mrs Timbuck wasn't impressed with the soundport change, but i would be willing to bet the bracing change would put a smile on her face, soundport plugged or non-existant, of course!

One other reason i posted this now, is to encourage Ken to run a few off at all his usual specs, except leave off the bridgeplate and reduce the soundhole braces to half the height. No soundport necessary!

......one he can keep for himself, and i'll be ready to snap up the other unless Mrs Timbuck gets to it first! :biglaugh:
(that's a legit commitment Tim!)

Here are some pics:

To the upper right you can see the glue remnant to the removed bridgeplate, a "memorial" of sorts



This is the bridgeplate in place, before it was sanded out in full. (hated to lose Ken's signature and dating)



This is a temporary rubber plug i used, until i get a lightweight cork one fitted capped with a matching piece of mahogany or contrasting ebony???

A few more pics of the sanding tool to work thru the soundport, and a better view of the height reduced soundhole braces:

All I can say is,......................wow

Pukulele Pete said:

All I can say is,......................wow

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....."wow" can be taken 2 ways???? I hope you'll reserve final judgement until Ken (maybe), runs a few samples off himself. It may no longer be a "Style O" as much as it was, but then Tim never made his 100 % true to the original, as he's noted at times. (different fretboard inlays and such)

Not that Ken even needs to change anything to get them sold,......they ALL seem to go when offered! All i'm saying is that a few bracing options might be nice to have, even if it is different that the "Style O" it follows.

I'm not a vintage fanatic, and personally believe you get a LOT more for your money buying new from many of the current builders. Tone, volumn, and sustain are what i value, and how i get there unimportant. Everyone's preferance is different, of course,......but we know what we like when we hear it.

All I can say is ..Bye bye to your bridge... co's it will one day soon it will catapult off ..(it's funny how you go off some people) and my name is KEN (the good thing is my name has been removed..Thanks)

Goodbye Hole'y Joe...this is my last post on this thread ..You've won "enjoy the feeling"
Best regards Ken Timms.

Timbuck said:

All I can say is ..Bye bye to your bridge... co's it will one day soon it will catapult off ..(it's funny how you go off some people) and my name is KEN
Goodbye Holy Joe...this is my last post on this thread ..You've won "enjoy the feeling"
Best regards Ken Timms.

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Geese Ken, i got confused and used "Tim" instead of "Ken" thoughout the posts, and you get mad? Easy to do
when you use "Timbuck" as your user name instead of Ken.

Seriously, i should have mentioned it previously, but i meant no disrepect to you or your body of work. If the bridge flies off at some point i'll deal with it, but i seriously doubt it on a soprano. Since a lot of soprano ukes in years past were unbraced on the top, there is precedent in place using it as a viable option.

In the alternative, a short and thin brace could be added going the other way, (like on a MB soprano) adding some support but giving the top more flexability.

Anyway,.....i still hold out the offer to purchase an unbraced top example if you are someday open to try them.

Please reconsider commenting further here,.....i certainly wasn't trying to p*ss you off.

By the way, a simple string true the soundboard method of stringing would alleviate any worry of the bridge pulling off, with some small round "washers" made of maple (loose, not glued) to go between the string knots and the inside of the top. Ebony would work also, and i just got some ebony binding material that looks about the right size to work with.

These could be just large enough (maybe 7-6mm in diameter and 2mm thick or so) to spread out the force of the knot so it doesn't pull thru the soundboard. Probably not so much a worry on mahogany as it would be on a spruce top, but it would certainly free up the top much more than using a wide bridgeplate for support. Also, the glued bridge is directly above, offering some support to the top in preventing string pull thru.

I'm going to make some of those tonight, just to be a bit safer. It should eliminate your concerns of bridge lift off, and allow me to gain the response i'm after. I'll drill 4 small holes just where each cut bridge slot ends, sized to allow each respective Aquila nylgut string to pass through.

.....best of both worlds. One thing for sure is the bridge won't be popping "off" when it's pinched to the soundboard with a string thru top stringing method.

Also,....you should take it as a compliment i'm using your uke on a project of mine. I only chose it because it is a high quality platform,..... with well built sturdy construction and made with solid tonewoods. The reasonble price you offer them for a testiment to your abilities.

..........i'm willing to risk one by experimenting a bit to seek what i'm after, but the quality was already there.



EDITED to add:

OK,...just got 4 small ebony "washers" made up from a strip of stew-mac binding material. I rounded all the edges a bit, probably not necessary. I restrung it with a new set of Aquila nylguts in proper soprano size, and i'll keep
at the retuning until all the new string stretch is gone and they stabilize.

Initial impression is that i have not lost anything of the tone i was after by removing the wide bridgeplate and lowering the 2 soundhole braces about half their initial height. I believe i have addressed Ken's concerns about the possibility of the bridge popping off. The ebony washers spread the minimal force per string over a wider area, yet the top is free to vibrate in a much more effecient manner. The washers are almost directly under the bridge, effectively "pinching the mahogany top between the bottom of the bridge and the topmost side if the ebony washer. Given the fairly low string tensions at this scale, i am confident the arrangement is now sound.

(and i thank Ken for pointing out the potential problem)

......not for everybody maybe, but i've only got to satisfy me!

:cheers:

Well let see.......you respect Ken's work so much you are willing to sacrifice it by cutting holes in it and experimenting with the bracing? Maybe you should have thought about this a bit more. I don't know any luthier that would appreciate someone screwing around with their work. If you bought a painting would you take it home and change the colors to suit your needs?

BlackBearUkes said:

Well let see.......you respect Ken's work so much you are willing to sacrifice it by cutting holes in it and experimenting with the bracing? Maybe you should have thought about this a bit more. I don't know any luthier that would appreciate someone screwing around with their work. If you bought a painting would you take it home and change the colors to suit your needs?

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Let's try to keep this on simple utilitarian point. A work of art does not have a useful purpose to exist, except to bring visual enjoyment to the viewer. Like many others, i have not understood the ridulous pricing of $50,000,000.00 and more for a painting that at times appears nothing more that paint drops flung to a canvas from a distance. Other than elitist bragging rights, expensive art pricing is not defensable in any rational way.

I give a luthier credit for providing a more complex product at a reasonable price than any work of art, with a few exceptions. (Michaelangelo's works among them) Realism in art done realliy well is something i can appreciate, whereas abstract art i generally do not. I don't play violin, but would be adverse at combining "art", "luthiery", and "rarity" by buying a Stradivarius even "if" i could afford one! (which i could not)

By the way, your response here seems more to slap an insult on me, but i will take it in stride. I thought a luthier/builder forum would have among it's members open minded individuals interested in exploring ways to further the main point of what you do,.....make a better sounding instrument.

Sensitive egos i did not count on,... sorry. As i already mentioned once, i viewed Ken's work as worth the effort to work on to meet my expectations and desires. Since he does not take commissions, doing what i did was the way to go. Frankly, if you were to place the uke i've made changes with in a blind sound test with a competent player, i believe even Ken would approve.

I would think anyone familiar with basic tone production principles could see the benefits of that i had done, save for the
soundport perhaps. But that was far easier for me to do than removing and replacing the back.

Given the right set of circumstances, i would not be adverse to having a respected 3rd party do a simple sound test and recording of my example, and compare to one that was unaltered. (ignore the esthetics of a plugged soundport).

I would pick up shipping both ways on my instrument, AND the cost to ship (both ways also) a representative unaltered example. I feel that strongly about the benefits of the change. If anyone wishes to arrange such a comparison, let me know.

A work of art does not have a useful purpose to exist

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Wow. So it wasn't enough to insult Timbuck, a highly respected contributor to this forum, by telling him how he can "improve" his instruments, you also feel it necessary to insult every fine artist who ever lived. But these are your "views," so I guess they must be true. Please, if there is a moderator present, put this thread out of its misery!

If I made that uke I would be kind of offended. I've built 5 guitars so far and am almost done with my first uke. All of them are like my "babies". I put countless hours of work into each one and if I saw one was being completely altered and my signature, the little evidence that it was me whose blood sweat and tears was in that instrument, was removed by it's owner, I would rather not know about it... Thats just me though.

henderson is go said:

If I made that uke I would be kind of offended. I've built 5 guitars so far and am almost done with my first uke. All of them are like my "babies". I put countless hours of work into each one and if I saw one was being completely altered and my signature, the little evidence that it was me whose blood sweat and tears was in that instrument, was removed by it's owner, I would rather not know about it... Thats just me though.

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Fair enough,..and your's is a rational point of view so thanks for that. I will say the uke arrived to me in an already
altered state, ("ears" on board and a lower saddle) so maybe less a concern than ,.... ummm, .... a "v*rgin" example.

I still have Ken's label inside the soundhole, often the only evidence of a builder's identity. I would certainly have prefered a signature on the soundboard itself, rather than on the bridgeplate that i sanded off, as it would still be there.

As much as a builder might have some emotional connection with every instrument he builds, i think it fair to say he learns something new with every one built also. When building in numbers, little time is left to experiment. I don't have that problem,.....and dealing with just one instrument at a time, i can work to get each one set up to my needs and expectations.

eugene ukulele said:

Geez you guys, give Joe a break. He hasn't insulted anyone according to my reading of the thread. He lacks the means to build a uke to where he wants it and has, respectfully, in the face of much vitriole, asked for some assistance. He chose to use Ken's soprano precisely because he valued and respected it's construction. Not sure about removing the builder's name, but Joe obviously has time and money on his side, and simply wants to try out some sound experiments based on some creative ideas on luthiery he has. Get over it.

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Thanks for that,

..... i truly have tried to keep this entire thread to a strictly open minded discussion. A few bumps in the road for sure, but i'm hopeful the results will be something to build on in the future.

As i already mentioned, if Ken builds a few without the wide bridgeplate, (and makes it strings thru top loading with the lightweight washers), that i'd step up to buy one.

.......what better testiment to a builders's work, than to want another "slightly customised" example!
(i can live with friction tuners if that helps! )

And Ken,.....if you were offended by the entire thrust of this thread, please accept my sincere apology.
I was excited by the sounds coming from your work with a little tweeking to meet my needs,.....

...hell,....i was so excited i was calling you "Tim" for awhile!

Joe, with all due respect, I am convinced that you really don't mean to be insulting. It's just that some of it comes across that way. Guess that's the short fall of the written word verses face to face communication.
At times it seems that you, as a non-experienced builder, are giving advice or recommendations to folks that have considerable experience...... just the way it seems... and some folks are offended by that.
Even your statement "I would certainly have prefered a signature on the soundboard itself'...... Yikes! Almost sounds like you are being critical of where people sign their work..... but am sure that's not what you meant. And besides, who'd a thought that some inexperienced newby would go in and remove the bridge plate.
But here's a question and perhaps a ray of hope.... Above you say "i'm hopeful the results will be something to build on in the future." Does this mean you are actually going to build one or become a builder yourself? Or is there another expectation?

Ummm, errr...

Perhaps if as many minutes of building ukes had been spent as in writing about it all...

Well, almost enough said.

I'll just relate this. I heard the great OZ... Oh, that was Professor Michael Kasha, speak about his revolutionary improvements to the art and SCIENCE of lutherie. Well, he got some sucker at Guild to do his thing...all scientific and such...was to be a major IMPROVEMENT on the horribly inefficient mechanics of the CLASSICAL GUITAR...yeah, whoop-tee-freakin'-do...

Well, he presented this perfect, scientifically designed guitar to Segovia, who promptly pronounced that it sucked. Kasha spent the next night into dawn shaving "perfect" braces through the sound hole trying to "scientifically" please the maestro. Uhh...wasn't it supposed to be perfect already? NOT!

Segovia spent the rest of his life going back and forth between Hauser and Ramirez guitars. And that's a whole 'nuther story.

Real make 'em before you praise 'em lutherie is a great antidote to hubris.

Prove it before you go public with it.

Don't fall in love with ideas. Fall in love with results.

At one time or another, haven't most luthiers taken apart someone else's design and tried to improve it? How do you learn to make an instrument without looking at someone else's design?

It sounds like everyone has an original design on this thread.

I saw Martin's video and it sounded like in the early 1900s, Mr. Martin took apart one of the Hawaiian ukes and he thought he could make it better! OMG!!

you wanna talk about improvements in guitar bracing...When we were designing AB-1 and AB-2, I worked with Steve Klein on a bracing pattern he called "The Train Wreck" it was interesting to look at.

Out of respect to Mr. Timms may I suggest you remove his label from your bastardized uke?

At the end of the day Ken Timms might get the last laugh!!

fahrner said:

Joe, with all due respect, I am convinced that you really don't mean to be insulting. It's just that some of it comes across that way. Guess that's the short fall of the written word verses face to face communication.
At times it seems that you, as a non-experienced builder, are giving advice or recommendations to folks that have considerable experience...... just the way it seems... and some folks are offended by that.
Even your statement "I would certainly have prefered a signature on the soundboard itself'...... Yikes! Almost sounds like you are being critical of where people sign their work..... but am sure that's not what you meant. And besides, who'd a thought that some inexperienced newby would go in and remove the bridge plate.
But here's a question and perhaps a ray of hope.... Above you say "i'm hopeful the results will be something to build on in the future." Does this mean you are actually going to build one or become a builder yourself? Or is there another expectation?

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That's true,..never meant to be insulting, and yes,....the written word lacks something often conveyed in face to face discussions. I will say, although i haven't built anyting from scratch, that i have had the back off an old kays solid carved spruce archtop to repair a broken parallel brace. Refretted many a guitar, made a few bridges from scratch, and did a set up of at least 60% of whatever i bought over the last 40 years or so,...well,....because they really needed it!

Point being i'm not exactly a "newbe", and much of the same skillset in being a bench jewelry repaiman/diamond setter for most of my life carries over to some aspects of instrument work. Average 65 hour weeks, and 100 hour weeks leading up to the mad chrismas rush forced you to be quick to identify a problem, (even if only to what you personally felt was one),....and then figure out a way to make it the way you wanted. Do that for 35 years straight and you learn a lot.

Experience in actual building can be a good thing, granted, but it does not guarentee it produces the best of what could be. A custom builder working many patterns with various options quicky learns what does and doesn't work, because he's probably tried just about everything at least once! A builder specializing in just one or two specific instruments may not have tried much in the way of experimentation, or just might not have the time.

The work on removing the bridgeplate i think i accomplished in the best way with the least intrusing into the body. I do like the option of having a bit more player feedback in using a sideport, and normally i would have placed it on the upper bout to avoid the bass responce loss. (if middle "C" can be considered "bass" responce)

I was not aware the bass responce loss would be as drastic as it was on a ukulele, because on the few guitars i've done it with the larger body sizes are less affected by a side port in the lower bout. Kevin Ryan's bevel and flutes are located there, and they sound great! (i have 2 custom Grand Parlors by him currently) So i learned something new!
However, the port was necessary in that location to do the work i planned on removing the bridgeplate without the much more invasive back removal.

It might not be for everyone either, as we all have person likes and dislikes. But realistically, the principle of allowing an instruments top to vibrate as freely as possible is NOT an off the wall idea! To hear some of you it would appear otherwise.

If it can be done safety and with long term stability in mind, i don't think there is a one of you that would argue a better sounding instrument is the result. Many of the older vintage instruments are so highly desired precisely because the builders worked right on the edge,.......beyond which the instrument might self-distruct!

By the way, some of you should sit back and think about what meaning most likely was meant if something can be taken more than one way. Overall this site is full of great people, and an asset to everyone. To think my statement
that i would have prefered a maker's signature on the top rather than on the bridge was a slight to Ken is simply wrong.
(i was going to say "crazy", but then i'd be whipped for using that word and someone would be offended)

Come on guys, i thought it was obvious my meaning was that "if" it had been on the inside of the top, it would still be there. Simple as that,....nothing narfarious meant or implied. Traditionally that's where a builder's signature and dating is placed, as well as any repairs done later. (even by a different repairman)

It's tough to be a mind reader, and be clear and concise in my thoughts.

Me,....i don't have any plans to build much "in" the future,...as i've already explained my room and tooling shortcomings.
What i meant by "i'm hopeful the results will be something to build on in the future" was that Ken might consider building a few without the wide bridgeplate in place, and see whate HE thinks. Just one even,...i'd buy it as i said so where's the risk?

I'm willing to back my findings with another purchase, ....shouldn't that mean at least something with credibility?

I don't believe you need builder's ears that tell you when something sounds nicer,......but concede personal preference plays a big part there. Just saying try it before you condemn it.

:cheers:
Joe T

new wave ukulele said:

you wanna talk about improvements in guitar bracing...When we were designing AB-1 and AB-2, I worked with Steve Klein on a bracing pattern he called "The Train Wreck" it was interesting to look at.

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That was a fun bass. I gave a AB-1 to my son about a year or so after Taylor came out with them, as he played bass and i didn't. I did like to fool with it though!

bbycrts said:

Out of respect to Mr. Timms may I suggest you remove his label from your bastardized uke?

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Really??? ........"Et tu, Brute"

mzuch said:

Wow. So it wasn't enough to insult Timbuck, a highly respected contributor to this forum, by telling him how he can "improve" his instruments, you also feel it necessary to insult every fine artist who ever lived. But these are your "views," so I guess they must be true. Please, if there is a moderator present, put this thread out of its misery!

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What a shortsighted and closed-minded statement, as well as being dead wrong. The only one here who ever intented to insult someone is you. I can take it, as with clear conscience that was never my intent.