Government hasslin' Gibson

goodco

goodco

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Gibson's response

I am not anti-union or anti-regulation but geez! I think this Lacey Act is gonna be a problem!

WSJ had an even scarier take on it:

WSJ article

Steinberger makin carbon fiber ukes yet?

I do believe using local woods (and foods) is best in a lot of ways... but come on now, this is ridiculous.

Lacey Act :(
I guess it's the Farm Bill that amended the Lacey Act but still:

"The Lacey Act combats trafficking in “illegal” wildlife, fish, and plants. The 2008 Farm Bill (the Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008), effective May 22, 2008, amended the Lacey Act by expanding its protection to a broader range of plants and plant products. The Lacey Act now, among other things, makes it unlawful, beginning December 15, 2008, to import certain plants and plant products without an import declaration. This page will serve as a clearinghouse for all information related to the implementation of the Lacey Act declaration requirement and will be updated promptly as new information becomes available."

check it out
 
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Just one more reason why manufacturing has fled the USA. To raid a guitar factory as if they were dangerous criminals, shut down production, and shut down shipping products is an appauling abuse by the government. $1million of materials was confiscated....and no charges have been filed. What has happend to our 4th Amendment??
I hope Gibson can survive this.

Don't bet on carbon fiber escaping the totalitarian regime. I'm sure its in violation of some regulation, or soon will be.
 
Just because the material used in an instrument isn't wood, does it necessarily mean it's "green"? I wonder what chemicals and energy it takes to make carbon fiber, or even bamboo laminate for that matter. Shouldn't "environmentally responsible" also include the least amount of processing, which at the very least consumes energy? I'm not convinced carbon fiber is a "green" product.
 
Remember this is Gibson we're talking about. Consistently voted by employees as one of the worst US companies to work for. Notorious for heavy handed treatment of their dealers. Litigious against independent builders who the company suspects of violating questionable trademarks on inlay designs, headstock shapes, etc. A record of truly abominable customer service, except for their OAI division in Nashville which seems willing to go against corporate policy. Just because Henry J says they are sourcing legal wood doesn't make it so. Take what he says with a boulder-size grain of salt.
 
I'm with ya on the carbon fiber... just being cheeky. Also I searched Lacey on the forum and saw that it has been discussed previously by concerned parties. But yeah... this is ludicrous!
 
Thank you for the video. Somehow I feel better now as I seem to feel this way at least once every day. With your permission I have now changed my signature. :)
 
I play guitar also.
Gibson has good guitars but every time I try to get info from them its like they are to good.
I dont know anything about this but you dont hear this going on with Martin !!
 
As someone who used to work for Gibson and was, in fact, briefly the president of a division of the company (Gibson Labs, West), I say look to a disgruntled ex or current employee as being a whistle blower. And that's all I'm going to say.
 
I worked for Gibson (Steinberger specifically) twice myself, and while I found the corporate structure a pain, I felt it was to be expected in a somewhat corporate environment. I was low man on the totem pole too but still what a thrill to be making world class instruments instead of widgets. Gibson needs more lawyers than customer service personnel it seems.
I guess the Feds just haven't deemed Gibson "too big to fail."

But more than just concern for Gibson. I worry that this legislation has very broad implications for all of us wood instrument toting mofos. I have no provenance for the wood I have in my guitars, do you?

Thinkin about goin up to the country :cool:
 
Speaking of goin' up the country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI8exgG4SKE

I'm not too worried about this, as previously mentioned there may have been a whistle blower that called attention to Gibson's alleged wrongdoings. As far as customs agents or TSA seizing instruments at airports, I doubt if most of those people can tell maple from mahogany.
 
hoosierhiver said:
As far as customs agents or TSA seizing instruments at airports, I doubt if most of those people can tell maple from mahogany.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but what is one to do? Their (ICE, not TSA) ignorance can just as easily work in your favor as not. Should I request a certification letter from Martin for a couple of old ukes with ebony nuts and rosewood pegs that go back and forth to Europe? How will that work without Martin physically seeing the instruments? Guess I'll switch to Mainland!

Touring musicians must love this.
 
It seems to me that a balance is definitely needed. If it turns out Gibson was knowingly using wood from protected trees, illegaly smuggling wood, or intentionally covering up some sort of use of protected wood, then I have no problem at all with them getting slammed as hard as is possible - their history be damned.

Conservation isn't a four-letter word, nor is it some way for the government to stomp on the rights of people. Sadly, that's the way it's too often portrayed - as if wanting to protect and sustain resources is some sort of nefarious plot hatched by a weird nazi-communist-al qaeda organization run by some evil genius.

The fishing industry is getting a hard lesson in ignoring conservation methods. It would be a shame if the music instrument industry did as well.
 
The instrument industry is already suffering from the abuses of the past with regard to forestry. But it's not the music industry that was primarily responsible for using up the beautiful woods we now can hardly find. The crap furniture and veneer industries have used most of the wood making disposable junk that winds up as landfill in less time than it takes the trees to grow.
 
I heard a lady on a radio show last night who was quite worried. She's a professional musician and travels around the world to perform. She lives in Hawaii. She has some vintage wooden (don't know what kind) instruments. She has had some seized already. Someone told me that Honduran rosewood has now been banned. Given the number of rosewood fretboards, is this an issue now? I have a block of it on my shelf that I've had for about 7 years now. Guess I won't be making anything to sell with it though. If I travel with my uke, I'm going to take some paperwork for it with me--even if I don't leave the country. If you are not a performer, you might want to take a less expensive one in case it's "Seized." As to the wood knowledge of the TSA, be careful out there.
 
I think we're talking two different issues when discussing the Gibson issue and the seizure of instruments. With proper documentation there isn't any reason you can't travel with an instrument that has been constructed of these materials without them getting confiscated. You simply need the appropriate documentation. In the Gibson issue, they are arguing over how the material was labeled and whether it met the country of origin's requirements for export, and particularly is the difference between a finished good versus raw lumber.
 
thistle3585 said:
You simply need the appropriate documentation. .
Click to expand...

Can you provide documentation that includes point of origin and date of harvest of every plant and animal species within an instrument? I sure couldn't. And none of my wood suppliers can or will. They shrug their shoulders when I ask about such things.......
 
Moore Bettah Ukuleles said:
Can you provide documentation that includes point of origin and date of harvest of every plant and animal species within an instrument? I sure couldn't. And none of my wood suppliers can or will. They shrug their shoulders when I ask about such things.......
Click to expand...
And certainly that goes double for back when there were no regulations on wood and no requirement to document it. Vintage instruments are most at risk because they were more likely to use "undocumented woods" in the first place.

hoosierhiver said:
As far as customs agents or TSA seizing instruments at airports, I doubt if most of those people can tell maple from mahogany.
Click to expand...
And therein lies the rub. How many of us, even those into acquiring fine handmade wooden instruments, would truly be able to discern Brazilian vs. Indian rosewood on a cursory visual inspection? Or mahogany from a country that allows free harvesting vs. one with restrictions? We would rely on the builder/supplier description.

Bone saddle/nut? Again, you'd be hard pressed to find an average joe who can tell the difference between bone, plastic and ivory, let alone what animal the bone happened to come from if that's what it is. Many of the synthetics are made to look very close to the real thing these days.

I wonder how much time in a TSA rep's training is actually devoted to wood and being able to recognize vintage instruments that were built prior to any regulations.
 
It's pretty easy to tell Brazilian rosewood from Indian...but there are rosewoods...legal ones like some of the Madagascar, some of the South East Asian, and even some cocobolo and other South and Central American rosewoods that can look, and even smell dead nuts like Brazilian. I would defy anyone to distinguish many of the legal Madagascar rosewood fingerboards I've used from righteous old growth Bz, even down to the sawdust smelling identical.

The last time one of my instruments got caught up in Lacey Act customs hell, what it finally took was just me writing a letter saying just what I used and where it came from. Yes, it was a major pain in the a.., but I didn't have to go back to suppliers who could not possibly have been able to ID that THIS piece of wood came from THEM, anyway.

This is the government crap that spawns Tea Party advocates and turns old lefties like me into raving Libertarians. I'd love to see International laws that simply state, "Cut a tree down, plant two."...with all the care and stewardship required to make sure that one of the two reaches maturity. But it ain't gonna happen given mankind's predilection for greed and the fast buck. Rob the future to pay for the present, and whoops! We have to pay for our past, too!

Don't forget that the Lacey Act itself was spawned by greed...
 
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