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Pete Howlett
09-15-2011, 09:38 PM
After battling with the Josh phenomonum (spelling) can I suggest that moderators either create a new status - Grumpy old Luthiers or a forum where we can moan and complain to ourselves without upsetting anyone else? Seriously, we professionals need to take a breath and get back to the real world. Who cares what we think? That some do is great; that other's don't - tough... their loss. Now I'm off to make a rack for my sandpaper - beeen 16 years overdue this project!

didgeridoo2
09-15-2011, 09:57 PM
Not much sanding involved if you built more laminated ukes, Pete. ;)

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
09-16-2011, 06:54 AM
Yeah, that's a great idea. The very best advice I've read on this board is from people who are tired of walking on egg shells and holding peoples hands.

Rzr
09-16-2011, 07:59 AM
But I like having you guys here.

Rick Turner
09-16-2011, 08:14 AM
And I tire of it...

23skidoo
09-16-2011, 08:28 AM
As a relative newbie to the world of online forums, I quickly learned the cardinal rule - don't feed the trolls and ignore the jacka$$es. You experienced builders are incredibly cool - to share your knowledge so openly and be so laid back.... it's a tremendous resource to the folks on this forum. Stick around... just disengage completely when someone bugs you - that's what I do.....

Sven
09-16-2011, 08:41 AM
I think it was great that Rick started posting here. A big setback if you would stop. 23skidoo (despite the whacky name) makes a good point. Also, if you pros were to scuttle off to a subforum... I wouldn't know where I should put my posts.

Maybe a sticky post labelled "Newbies, patent seekers and inventors of The Wheel pls read". And in the sticky there would be a single line of advice: read before you post.

I know I'm a presumptious cynic, and I don't get all subtleties in English. I can be harsh and I have received several pm:s telling me so. But I'll try to stay away from threads likely to deteriorate into nonsense. If only everyone would research. And maybe harden up some.

didgeridoo2
09-16-2011, 09:12 AM
Despite my joke from last night, it is great having you here. I have yet to build anything, but I was signed up for one of your builds, Rick. Unfortunately, we didn't get the required number of participants and I'm sorry to not have had that opportunity. What makes your presence here so great is that you do talk about your build experiences and equipment and so on. While I appreciate the instruments you have for sale, it would be a shame if promoting them would be the only reason you post here. 99.999% of the posters on here appreciate what you share with us.

Ronnie Aloha
09-16-2011, 10:22 AM
I would miss your posts too. However, I understand your frustration and would understand if you started a private group. Perhaps you could do a private group in Facebook. Alternatively, perhaps you could start a group under the VIP forum since there is very little traffic there. You could set up your own moderator for that group too.

Dan Uke
09-16-2011, 10:28 AM
Haha...I brought a similar situation in uke talk about Aloha Spirit and even though it's not exactly the same, my point was I know the uke brings happiness but we coddle way too much in UU. I love brutal honesty but maybe it's my personality but I try to improve after hearing it.

Timbuck
09-16-2011, 10:36 AM
I say no! to starting a new forum..the last one was a "Japanese speaking forum" if I remember right..and "Koaloa Paul" and others went for it..and now I miss e'm:(...........But if I'm allowed into the new brotherhood ?????:) and I can complain about all the e-mails and PM's I get..asking daft questions that I can't answer:D..Then I'm all for it :iwant:.. (that should be enough to kill the idea)

CTurner
09-16-2011, 10:41 AM
Well, you could always start a new forum that was "Read Only" for those not luthiers. :)

fahrner
09-16-2011, 11:21 AM
Along the lines of "Read Only" how 'bout if those that are so inclined have a moniker that says "Only reply to this thread if you really know what you're talking about and actually have direct experience. I don't care what you think."
For those that are upset when their advice is not taken or questions are ignored, just shake your head and walk away. Take your strokes from the folks that do take your advice and show that they do want to learn.
Yes, there are a lot of interesting posts on this forum that really make one wonder but there is a lot of very good stuff here as well.
What continues to amaze me is that, every once in awhile, a pearl of wisdom will come out of those lame posts.
It's like going through the grocery check-out, where they ask you "Paper or plastic or did you bring your own". You make a choice when you respond to one of these threads and take a chance that you will be ignored.
A half dozen or so of you guys that have devoted a lifetime to lutherie or are trying to make a living at it going off to your own separate forum is not the answer. What fun would that be? And besides, I know what's in your hearts. You want to share your knowledge. There are a lot of us here that are very appreciative of that.

Allen
09-16-2011, 11:28 AM
This forum has more than it's fair share of first time builders, or wannabe first time builders who think that they have amassed enough info and experience from hearing something second hand to be considered an expert in the field and offer that advice up.

Then there are others just too lazy to do a simple Google search, or take a book out from the library and do a bit of research before asking a question. It doesn't have to be a book on ukes. Read them all. I do, and I'd bet each and every one of the pros here did as well.

And lets not forget the procrastinators. Experts on everything, but just haven't actually gone out to the shed and cut a piece of wood and put glue to it.

How's that for an honest assessment......Don't know what it is about ukuleles that brings this sort of person out. I don't see it anywhere near as much on guitar forums.

I don't need a "Luthiers Only" forum. I can and do email my peers for advice etc. without any of the extra traffic that asking a question on an open forum creates. I hope that when I do take the time to provide an answer to a question it helps not only the person asking, but others reading as well. And I try my very best to ignore the wankers.

Now I've got to get out to the shed. Students coming over. New design to work on. Commissions to work on. Some repairs for other customers. Instruments that have been on the shelf waiting for some free time need more work. Finding more room for the latest addition to the wood stash. A day in the life of a working luthier.

Liam Ryan
09-16-2011, 11:29 AM
I'd rather have clear, direct, informative posts from the pros than perfect sperlling. I can work a dictionary. I'm still learning uke construction.

Rick Turner
09-16-2011, 12:27 PM
I've gotten a number of very supportive private messages from folks here, and basically my reply is this:

I'm only going to get into discussions with the pro and experienced luthiers here. I'm done with commenting on threads and posts from amateurs, particularly the know it alls" who are mostly in the "look at me, Ma, no hands" category. I recognize that there are talented amateurs here, but it's clearly not worth the aggravation to get into the kinds of threads I've allowed myself to be sucked into, so I'm going to be extremely careful about whose posts I answer or comment upon. There is a huge wealth of communal knowledge that could be tapped here if there was a decent amount of automatic respect from those who post questions, who display their work, etc. But if the response to us old fart luthiers is automatic rejection and active disrespect, then you'll see less and less of that communal knowledge be displayed.

How will I determine whose comments to answer and those to ignore? Simply by assessing the passion for knowledge implicit in how folks post here. If I detect a hunger for information and I think I might have something to offer, I'll be free with the info. If all I see is that "look at me" stuff, then fuggedaboudit. I'm not interested in commenting.

If you want to build ukes with utterly boneheaded methods given all the free knowledge that is at your fingertips, then go right ahead. You want to reinvent the wheel, well I just don't want to know about it.

For a number of us pros, our time might be better spent helping players over in the Tech section. There's enough bad information there to go around, but we're less likely to be reamed for telling the truth.

As for here, maybe tagging an extra phrase on the title of a thread..."Pro tip" or "Pro ???" might separate the wheat from chaff. If it's marked "Pro" then I think that we should be able to debate, explain, actually justify our methods, etc. Let it be lively, and let there be honest and logical disagreement. But let there not be any whining about "well I can't afford a bender" or crap like that. If you want to build instruments, there is a bare minimum investment in order to do a half-decent job, and it's honestly not that more than what it takes to do a half-assed job. You shouldn't think that you can build a uke cheaper than buying one. I'm tired of debating cheapskates.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
09-16-2011, 01:30 PM
I starting doing that and found that I was spending much less time on the computer.
It was also helpful to realize I didn't have to respond to everything that came up.
I'm pretty much self taught so the things I know are based primarily on observing and learning from doing the same thing a thousand times. I enjoy reading the comments from some of the members who have the technical background that I lack.
It sounds like we're getting this sorted out amongst ourselves and I look forward to getting things back on track. Maybe there should be some sort of advisory like they do on TV during the family hour: Viewer discretion and all....enter at your own risk sort of thing.

dave g
09-16-2011, 01:38 PM
Seriously, we professionals...

How about a "Luthier Snot" forum? (see "wine snot"...) :)

I dunno what you guys are in a tizzy about this time, but my suggestion would be simply not participate in threads that you feel are beneath you - it's easy! (but I'm not setting a good example with this particular post...).

We're talking ukuleles, for crying out loud :)

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
09-16-2011, 01:54 PM
How about a "Luthier Snot" forum? (see "wine snot"...) :)

I dunno what you guys are in a tizzy about this time, but my suggestion would be simply not participate in threads that you feel are beneath you - it's easy! (but I'm not setting a good example with this particular post...).

We're talking ukuleles, for crying out loud :)

I'll tell you what the problem is as I see it. It lowers the bar of the board and we lose good people because of the silliness that sometimes takes place here. We have attracted some valuable members lately and I'd like to see them stay. We've lost other valuable members in the past few years and it's been our loss. I take my craft seriously enough (it's my entire life "for crying out loud"!) not to want to lower it's status as "just an ukulele". When I think of "ukulele" I don't think of Tiny Tim nor do I think of something made of card board and toothpicks. The "instrument" means so much more to me. I've learned to ignore the belittlement of the ukulele but I think it also keeps some good people away. So you are correct Dave, this may not be the place for folks like me. I've mentioned many times on this very forum that there are better sources for good information that what you are likely to find here, but we've got an opportunity to raise the bar with some of the newer members who are highly respected in their field. I guess I was only dreaming that we could make this a more valuable resource for EVERYONE.

hmgberg
09-16-2011, 02:02 PM
Haha...I brought a similar situation in uke talk about Aloha Spirit and even though it's not exactly the same, my point was I know the uke brings happiness but we coddle way too much in UU. I love brutal honesty but maybe it's my personality but I try to improve after hearing it.

I think the pros have been exhibiting the Aloha Spirit by so generously sharing their knowledge and experience with those of us who want to learn. One of the most highly venerated pedagogical tools is the question. The notion is that if you pose a question, you've engaged the mind of the student who then actively seeks an answer. Conversely, if you spoon feed a student information, you are less certain that their mind is activated. In the referenced thread, all Rick did was ask a question about lamination. I detected nothing "brutal" nor even judgmental about the question. The question was provocative, but in a very good way for me. It caused me to seek an answer. In an even better way it was effective in causing me to seek an answer to a question I would not have thought to ask myself. Um, that's education.

Rick Turner
09-16-2011, 02:16 PM
I might ask this: Dave G, why are you here participating? What do you have to ask or offer that might be of value?

itsme
09-16-2011, 02:19 PM
Then there are others just too lazy to do a simple Google search, or take a book out from the library and do a bit of research before asking a question.
Sadly, that's the way forums often work. How many times do you see someone jump into the tabs forum (which is for completed tabs only) and their first post here is to ask for "Over the Rainbow" or such without so much as exploring UU or even attempting a google search?

If someone can't even put in a modicum of effort, then it's my right to ignore them and not respond.


I'm only going to get into discussions with the pro and experienced luthiers here. I'm done with commenting on threads and posts from amateurs, particularly the know it alls" who are mostly in the "look at me, Ma, no hands" category.
Rick, I'd be sad if you and the other "pros" decided to ignore all us amateurs. I've asked some dumb questions here, but they were sincere and I feel I've been treated with respect by all who responded. I have another dumb question I'd like to ask, so I will (in another thread) and hopefully I won't be laughed out too hard. :)

hmgberg
09-16-2011, 02:51 PM
I'll tell you what the problem is as I see it. It lowers the bar of the board and we lose good people because of the silliness that sometimes takes place here. We have attracted some valuable members lately and I'd like to see them stay. We've lost other valuable members in the past few years and it's been our loss. I take my craft seriously enough (it's my entire life "for crying out loud"!) not to want to lower it's status as "just an ukulele". When I think of "ukulele" I don't think of Tiny Tim nor do I think of something made of card board and toothpicks. The "instrument" means so much more to me. I've learned to ignore the belittlement of the ukulele but I think it also keeps some good people away. So you are correct Dave, this may not be the place for folks like me. I've mentioned many times on this very forum that there are better sources for good information that what you are likely to find here, but we've got an opportunity to raise the bar with some of the newer members who are highly respected in their field. I guess I was only dreaming that we could make this a more valuable resource for EVERYONE.

I had the same dream... "for crying out loud!" I need a pill, now. I don't think Dave read the thread that upset people. I'm not sure he read Pete's entire post either, or interpreted it as I did, anyway. A lot of us do care what the pros have to say. The only unprovoked hostility I've been reading has not come from the pros. What's up with that?

heymak
09-16-2011, 03:12 PM
I hope if you guys get this that it could be "Read Only." I enjoy and respect your post and would miss being able to read them. I rarely comment here but, The Luthier's Lounge is my favorite read of this site.

sukie
09-16-2011, 04:17 PM
Dear Luthiers:

Please don't leave. I will probably never build an ukulele. BUT I love reading about building them. I love the sharing of your expertise. Selfishly, I'd like to keep reading your stuff.

Love, Sukie

fahrner
09-16-2011, 04:27 PM
I might ask this: Dave G, why are you here participating? What do you have to ask or offer that might be of value?
So Rick; I must be reading this all wrong. Certainly Dave G has as much right to be here as anyone else.
Please tell me that this is some kind of private humor between you and Dave cause you've been buds for 400 years or something, eh?

shrink9
09-16-2011, 04:34 PM
Luthiers give this forum immeasurable value. I enjoy reading the info posted even though I will probably never build my own uke (unless I get to attend one of Rick's workshops one of these days); still, I enjoy reading the posts--I learn a lot from you. Please don't let a few bad apples spoil it for the rest of us.

Sincerely,
Allen Newkirk

coriandre
09-16-2011, 04:43 PM
I think pretty much the same as Sukie. I love ukulele and string instruments. I am an avid reader gathering all the information I can about my passion. I love reading all the stuff you post even though I will probably never build an instrument. I feel priviledged to be able to read what the pros write. I think the pros should be clearly identified in the forum......just like UU VIP are. How about <Ukulele Professional> ?
I have posted a question in this lounge regarding a tonewood identification. I have spent countless hours searching the net. Even going to spanish sites (I dont even read spanish), lumber distributer sites, biological scientist papers and writing emails to spanish luthiers to find my answer before posting here, to a community of luthiers. Should I not be allowed to pose a question because I am not a luthier ?

Respecfully,

Luc alias Coriandre

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
09-16-2011, 04:58 PM
So Rick; I must be reading this all wrong. Certainly Dave G has as much right to be here as anyone else.
Please tell me that this is some kind of private humor between you and Dave cause you've been buds for 400 years or something, eh?

Dave has been doing his own thing albeit a little bit differently than the rest of us but none the less is sincere about pursuing his craft and has made valuable contributions in the past.
And this is where things start getting weird and in itself is enough to ruin this board. Who's "allowed" to contribute and who's not? Do we really want to go there? If I were king (and I soon will be) everyone would be welcome here. Just keep the egos under control, the attitude in check and have a bit of respect and patience for everyone. I'm talking pros and beginners alike. Think before you post and do a little homework before you do. Most of us didn't get where we are by being lazy and you shouldn't be lazy either. And know that you probably will not get the answer you want, and possibly get your feelings hurt if you have the cajones to ask about the feasibility of making frets out of paper clips. Show a little restraint. It also helps to be reasonably sober and over 12 years old when you post.

Rick Turner
09-16-2011, 05:08 PM
How about a "Luthier Snot" forum? (see "wine snot"...) :)

I dunno what you guys are in a tizzy about this time, but my suggestion would be simply not participate in threads that you feel are beneath you - it's easy! (but I'm not setting a good example with this particular post...).

We're talking ukuleles, for crying out loud :)

I addressed Dave G because of the "snotty" comments and the "we're talking ukeuleles, for crying out loud" which came off dismissive of how dedicated some of the folks here are to both the music and the craft. Of course I may have misinterpreted an attempt at levity, but such nuance is not one of the better aspects of the Internet nor of forums. I do not think that the more serious luthiers here are snotty; I think they're hard working people trying to make a living in a craft that is under attack from mediocrity and other forms of self-entertainment. When I see the artistry of a person like Chuck or the beautiful recreations of Martins by Ken...to mention merely two out of many great builders here, I see work that demands respect and I also know full well what goes behind being able to make such pieces. It's hard enough to build these things well without having to be dismissed out of hand by people who should know better or who should be more careful with their remarks and comebacks.

OK, back to the pin router to make another six necks...18 is the goal today...

gyosh
09-16-2011, 05:39 PM
Dear Professional luthiers and other talented [I]knowledgable[I] builders,

Please know there must be many people like myself who read these forums because we want to learn. I'm very new to ukulele and I find that what interests me more than playing, is learning about the building process and the combined science/engineering that goes into each instrument. In the past, I asked a question about strings, and being new, I probably didn't correctly articulate exactly what I was looking for and got a plethora of different answers. They were all interesting so I did a little research and learned much more about strings than I thought possible and it also let me know how much I still don't know. I want to learn. I want to learn from the best, so please don't let a few ignorant and/or thin skinned people chase you away. I think Tudrop stated it best when he said he's been slapped around in the forums and although it hurt his feelings at first, he always comes around to respect the opinion of those professionals who freely give their advice to help us all. And please remember those of us who mostly lurk so we can learn. It would be a shame to lose the expertise of the artisans.

-Gary

southcoastukes
09-16-2011, 07:02 PM
Let me give a little outside perspective here - it may be of no value at all.

I am NOT a luthier. That distiction belongs to my partner Omar Corrales. I know a fair amount about design in general, wood finishing of varied natures, tropical woods in the Western Hemisphere, importing & exporting, and I like to think I have a good ear and some analytical ability (maybe).

Not being a true luthier, I hardly ever participate in this section. While I probably could give some advice, there are others here who are better qualified.

The vast majority of what I have learned about lutherie has come from often lengthy discussions with Omar and other luthiers I have been fortunate enough to know personally. I have been very lucky to learn that way.

I don't ask questions here, because I think it's difficult to get those kind of answers in this kind of setting. I wouldn't expect the luthiers here to have the time to provide complete answers as to why something will or won't work. It's more than understandable - to do so would often require posting an answer better suited to a luthier's magazine, and no one should expect that sort of detailed response.

Out of neccesity, the replies then often seem to take the form of "take my word for it". For people who have given long hard thought (however uninformed) to whatever process they are involved in, this kind of an answer can easily rub the wrong way.

Nonetheless, in my limited experience in reading through some of these contentious posts, I am apalled at some of the responses to well meaning advice. There's simply no excuse for it. A response from someone a bit more secure in themselves would simply be "explain more, please!"

I too, would hope the luthiers continue in this forum. Hopefully my little post gives some insight into why reactions to their advice is sometimes negative. As others have said, I would suggest to simply bow out of the discussion quickly when it's obvious that you don't have a receptive partner.

Rick Turner
09-16-2011, 07:49 PM
Got 19 guitar necks shaped on the old Ekstrom Carlson 7 1/2 hp pin router tonight... It's a stressful job, but rewarding... That means I've shaped about 500 of this particular neck type using these jigs and fixtures that I made in 1980. Then there's the 2,500 or so of the other styles of necks that have come off of three different pin routers I've used. And that's after about 1,200 Alembic bass and guitar necks in the 1970s that I did on a pair of counter-rotating table shapers. This is the deal folks, when you've machine shaped 4,000 or so necks guiding the jigs by hand through big-ass cutters, you gain a respect for wood grain. And carbide. And safety. And what doesn't work. And how to recover your wits when the machine takes your work and blows it up and embeds it in the sheetrock wall. No problem. Next!

Not bragging, just emphasizing that there's nothing quite like cranking 'em out to teach you what's real and what isn't.

I'll have a Picasa photo hosting site up next week, and I'll then be able to post pictures...

Pete Howlett
09-16-2011, 09:05 PM
Can I be really nerdy and say I love my pin router too? :)

Tudorp
09-17-2011, 01:04 AM
I ask plenty of stupid questions. I know they are stupid when I ask them. Sometimes I start projects before I really should, but like I said before, I have always learned that way, by stepping in, getting my hands dirty, making mistakes and correcting those mistakes. Hitting the floor running. I am pasionate about my projects, and when I attack something, I do truely want to learn it, inside and out, how it is done, and the correct way to do it. At the end, I typically turn out a pretty good thing. Sometimes it doesn't and I toss it, and move on. Maybe I had ADD and just don't know it (they never heard of that when I was young). I am simply a hands on learner. I pose questions here, not always to get "the answer", but it spawns new questions, and gives me some "words" and terminologies that I didn't even know to search. Basically, the question will not give me an answer, but it gives me the correct stuff TO search and reasearchand read up on. That is what I do. I will see something I want to do, and not even know what it's called, or what to even research, or questions to ask. So, I ask a dumb question here like "look at this project, and tell me what it is.." Or "How do I make that thing that sticks up and wiggles?" I will get sarcastic responses sometimes, but that's ok, from that response, I found out that little thing that sticks up and wiggles I attempted to make was a Polyutinator finicle pin exciter, and now I know what to research to find out what it does, and how to make one correctly. Just sayin.. I hope that you pros (that I have countlessly said I have the highest respect for), if not respect, but at least understand that is how I work, and think. I have always been a "doer", and inovaitor (in my own mind). I have many flops, that I left behind, and I also have many successes that I am proud of. My success or failure with my recent facination with uke building is still out with the jury.. <grin>. Again, and again, thank you guys for what you do, and the help you offer. Now, all spelling and grammer police, have fun with this post.. hehheh

Kekani
09-17-2011, 12:18 PM
Sorry Pete, I haven't kept up with the Josh thing.

As far as a "new" forum, I sorta viewed the Lounge as being it. I started doing what I've seen Chuck and Rick do, and that is to not engage with, well, idiots. I find the frustration level less, and my willingness to participate greater. I think Paul ran head on into a troll, and just gave up (don't blame him).

Sometimes, I need a good read, and a good laugh just to shake my head and think, "what an idiot". This is where I get my kicks from the Talk. I'll engage there for fun, here for real (and fun too). Although, I still shake my head to this day when the term "solid wood" `ukulele is used. Like there's an option. Okay, if its a laminate, so call it such. Why call an `ukulele "solid wood"? That's like saying Shrimp Scampi or Ahi Tuna. The day I see someone refer to an instrument in the Lounge (or Tech Talk) as "solid", I'm going to have a cow. I'll be sure to take pics.

What I have quantified from this thread is what I sorta knew - there's more than a few from other forums on UU that read what's posted here - only now, they've chimed in. I appreciate the fact that players are interested in what makes the builders tick. I think it betters them as a performer (as knowing what the players think betters the builders).

That being said, you gotta know that we love it when you go head to head with someone. Truth is good, sometimes humbling, but good. You got the balls to do it, and we love it! Keep going, be grumpy here, its cool.

A

Rick Turner
09-17-2011, 12:47 PM
Pete, yes, you can say that!

I've used large shapers...even grinding knives for the interchangeable cutter head types (a massive crown molding cutter head was my crowning achievement in that arena)...but pin routers can just do it all for instrument building. I've had four, and my fave was a Dankaert because of it's six position head stop turret and a three position pin height adjuster allowing me to use multi layer templates. Fantastic machine. My Ekstrom Carlson is great, but it's a bit more primitive. It is massive, though...at about 1,500 lbs with a 7 1/2 hp 3 phase motor.

Kekani
09-17-2011, 12:57 PM
It is massive, though...at about 1,500 lbs with a 7 1/2 hp 3 phase motor.

I'm having a Tim Taylor flashback. . .

maclay
09-17-2011, 01:16 PM
Pete, yes, you can say that!
My Ekstrom Carlson is great, but it's a bit more primitive. It is massive, though...at about 1,500 lbs with a 7 1/2 hp 3 phase motor.

I think the pin router is the coolest machine in Ricks shop....it is a beast!

23skidoo
09-17-2011, 01:27 PM
I think it's interesting that this thread has 1,200 views in less than 48 hrs. Says something about this forum....

Nuprin
09-17-2011, 01:35 PM
Although, I still shake my head to this day when the term "solid wood" `ukulele is used. Like there's an option. Okay, if its a laminate, so call it such. Why call an `ukulele "solid wood"? That's like saying Shrimp Scampi or Ahi Tuna. The day I see someone refer to an instrument in the Lounge (or Tech Talk) as "solid", I'm going to have a cow. I'll be sure to take pics.

More and more manufacturers will just say "mahogany" if it's laminate vs. "solid mahogany" if it's solid. I think, due to this, that it's important for people to make that distinction when talking about their instruments. I might be reading too much into your post, but it sounds as if you're dismissing laminate ukes as a "real" ukulele (saying "like there's an option"). Lots of people love their Fleas and many swear by the laminate Kiwayas. From my experience, they don't compare to a Moore Bettah or K Brand (someday I hope I'll get to try out one of Rick's and Pete's creations!) but I still think that you can have a pretty good laminate.

As far as the topic at hand, I doubt I'll ever build an instrument. I would love to try my hand at it, but I have none of the knowledge, skill or machinery to do so. I love reading posts from Rick, Chuck, Pete, and the other pros because what you guys do amazes me. I work in a music store and I have gained so much knowledge from you all that it really helps me talk about instruments...different wood combinations, different wood characteristics, how bracing effects an instrument...well, I can't thank you guys enough. I think this forum would suffer greatly if any of the pros on here were to leave or stop contributing. So, I guess I don't have much to add...just wanted to send out a great big thanks!

BlackBearUkes
09-17-2011, 02:40 PM
The fact that many manufacturers of instruments are not clear about laminate versus solid wood is irritating for sure. The thing that gets me more than that is the description of the finish, simply saying it has a Gloss or Satin finish. The words gloss or satin are a description of the finish but it doesn't say what the actual finish is... for example, Shellac, Lacquer, etc. I know that most folks new to buying ukes don't care beyond the term of a gloss or satin finish, but as a luthier who deals with this stuff all day long, it drives me crazy.

CTurner
09-17-2011, 02:58 PM
Ever since the day I stood in a custom luthier's shop, when he tapped a sinker redwood top and held it to my ear, I have been in awe of what ukulele luthiers do. To people like me with little mechanical experience or skill, there is an alchemical magic about the process of uke making. I'm (usually) able to intellectually understand what they are doing, but the mechanical, artistic and kinesthetic skills required are extraordinary. Mix in individual tastes and styles and it is a marvelous discipline that we players profit from every second we play or admire our ukes.
I would be very disappointed to have the luthier forum waste away or become awkward. It is forums like this that increase the awareness of how special luthiery is and that is something all uke players as a matter of course should respect and nurture.
Thanks to all of you.

itsme
09-17-2011, 02:58 PM
The fact that many manufacturers of instruments are not clear about laminate versus solid wood is irritating for sure. The thing that gets me more than that is the description of the finish, simply saying it has a Gloss or Satin finish. The words gloss or satin are a description of the finish but it doesn't say what the actual finish is... for example, Shellac, Lacquer, etc. I know that most folks new to buying ukes don't care beyond the term of a gloss or satin finish, but as a luthier who deals with this stuff all day long, it drives me crazy.
I always look at the specs. If it doesn't specifically say the top or B/S are "solid", then I just presume they are laminate.

Never thought about finishes on ukes before, but you're right. When you look at classical guitars, it always spells out the specific finish, such as "french polish".

joejeweler
09-17-2011, 03:01 PM
I think it was great that Rick started posting here. A big setback if you would stop. 23skidoo (despite the whacky name) makes a good point. Also, if you pros were to scuttle off to a subforum... I wouldn't know where I should put my posts.

Maybe a sticky post labelled "Newbies, patent seekers and inventors of The Wheel pls read". And in the sticky there would be a single line of advice: read before you post.

I know I'm a presumptious cynic, and I don't get all subtleties in English. I can be harsh and I have received several pm:s telling me so. But I'll try to stay away from threads likely to deteriorate into nonsense. If only everyone would research. And maybe harden up some.

Wow,...out of nowhere another snide remark,....no subtletie there,.....just another dig related to previous posts aimed directly at me.

It amazes me the arrogence that is sometimes displayed on this forum. Seeking a patent is no small endever. Working thru an experienced patent attorney it's costing nearly $5400.00, of which i have already spent almost $3000.00 Further on down the road it's anticipated another $3000 or possibly more over the initial $5400.00

I would not be spending this kind of money (especially when out of work for 18 months!) if i didn't believe it held some promise to be worthwhile, yet you contine to belittle others without provocation for thinking outside the box.

Frankly,...it's about time to stop the meanspirited digs.

Peace???? I'm up for it,.....are you?

Rick Turner
09-17-2011, 03:39 PM
Joe, how much you've spent or will spend on getting a patent is totally irrelevant. It's how much money you're willing to spend defending your patent that matters. I've got a couple of patents; on one I did really well selling most of my rights to a major guitar manufacturer. The other was assigned to Gibson as I was working for them. They totally dropped the ball on it. But I have been involved as an expert witness in a couple of patent related lawsuits, and you just don't want to go there. If you're up against a major player, you can expect to put out at least $100,000.00 before you get to court.

Every dime you spend on your patent(s) must be amortized out in the cost of your products or paid back through licensing. Good luck with that, but I doubt there's enough dough in ukes to justify patenting anything these days. You get bragging rights for unsophisticated investors, you get a nice document that will make you feel good and may help light your fireplace someday, and that's about it. I don't see many devices in the fretted instrument world that are worth patenting these days. They may be clever, they may be original, but the money isn't there, and the knock-off artists are.

Major piece of advice? Learn Mandarin...

Kekani
09-17-2011, 04:14 PM
More and more manufacturers will just say "mahogany" if it's laminate vs. "solid mahogany" if it's solid. I think, due to this, that it's important for people to make that distinction when talking about their instruments. I might be reading too much into your post, but it sounds as if you're dismissing laminate ukes as a "real" ukulele (saying "like there's an option"). Lots of people love their Fleas and many swear by the laminate Kiwayas. From my experience, they don't compare to a Moore Bettah or K Brand (someday I hope I'll get to try out one of Rick's and Pete's creations!) but I still think that you can have a pretty good laminate.

What I'm saying is that an instrument shouldn't have to be called solid. What for? It should be assumed as such. I don't want to get to the point where I put out an instrument made out of Koa, only to be asked, "Is it solid?" as I see so much in Uke Talk. That statement would not only make me have a cow, I'd start shooting out calves as well.

I've not seen anyone in the Lounge refer to any of their instruments as "solid", and I hope I never do. There was a post about building a laminate instrument, perfectly fine. Defined as such, built as such.

I'm just throwing something out there with what Pete was alluding to - a place where we can be grumpy about what we feel is right, and what we do as right. I call it the Luthier's Lounge.

Over 1200 views on grumpy old guys building (some for a living). I've not seen anywhere else that does what the Lounge does, specifically for `ukulele.
Pete, you've helped shape this. Keep it, make it yours. If anyone else can't play with the big boys, then be the master like in martial arts - put them in their place so they keep trying, or go home.

I myself have learned a lot from here (almost as much as MIMF in the early days). . . still learning.

A

joejeweler
09-17-2011, 04:24 PM
Joe, how much you've spent or will spend on getting a patent is totally irrelevant. It's how much money you're willing to spend defending your patent that matters. I've got a couple of patents; on one I did really well selling most of my rights to a major guitar manufacturer. The other was assigned to Gibson as I was working for them. They totally dropped the ball on it. But I have been involved as an expert witness in a couple of patent related lawsuits, and you just don't want to go there. If you're up against a major player, you can expect to put out at least $100,000.00 before you get to court.

Every dime you spend on your patent(s) must be amortized out in the cost of your products or paid back through licensing. Good luck with that, but I doubt there's enough dough in ukes to justify patenting anything these days. You get bragging rights for unsophisticated investors, you get a nice document that will make you feel good and may help light your fireplace someday, and that's about it. I don't see many devices in the fretted instrument world that are worth patenting these days. They may be clever, they may be original, but the money isn't there, and the knock-off artists are.

Major piece of advice? Learn Mandarin...

Rick,...i was only pointing out that i was serious enough about my idea that i was willing to fund it's progression. Getting slapped with a belittling remark by Sven for no reason,...again,....seems unjustifyable and not in keeping with the aloha spirit mentioned again in this thread and elsewhere. I hope it will end at some point.

By the way,....i mentioned it before but it is not just ukes that this may prove to work with,......the acoustic guitar market looks promising also. Working with ukuleles is simply to keep the cost down.

cheers,
Joe T

Nuprin
09-17-2011, 04:38 PM
What I'm saying is that an instrument shouldn't have to be called solid. What for? It should be assumed as such. I don't want to get to the point where I put out an instrument made out of Koa, only to be asked, "Is it solid?" as I see so much in Uke Talk. That statement would not only make me have a cow, I'd start shooting out calves as well.

I've not seen anyone in the Lounge refer to any of their instruments as "solid", and I hope I never do. There was a post about building a laminate instrument, perfectly fine. Defined as such, built as such.

I agree...when I first noticed instrument manufacturers listing laminate koa as just "koa" on their sites, the first thing I thought was it was pretty deceptive and they're trying to feed on the ignorance of those who didn't know better. Unfortunately now it seems that has become the norm.

You're right in that when a luthier is talking about their instruments, it is a given that it is solid. Even when a high end production company (such as the big K's) list a wood, it's assumed that it's solid. Wonder at what dollar point that changes?

Anyway, this is getting way off the point...thanks to all the luthiers who provide their expertise to these forums. I find their advice and insight invaluable. Please don't leave us!

southcoastukes
09-17-2011, 04:56 PM
...Getting slapped with a belittling remark for no reason,...again,....seems unjustifyable

Joe T

O.K., I'm not taking my own advice, and getting drawn into something I may regret, but Joe, you are obviously a creative guy - and yet you seem to have some issues when it comes to any questions or suggestions to your methodology.

I haven't read about your patent project - no idea what it is. Let me just add to Rick's comments - and in the true Aloha spirit - that patents no longer function as they were originally intended. I think this is what Rick is trying to tell you.

My background is in furniture. I've had patents, watched them violated wholesale, and not had the funds to defend them. If you're up against a big boy, they'll just beat you down with their on staff lawyers. If it's a horde of overseas fellows in China - good luck with that.

Notice that Rick said he did best with selling one patent to a major guitar manufacturer. If you think you can do something like that, then the patent process is worthwhile. They have lawyers on staff - folks will not be as ready to take them on as they would you.

I think this is the point Rick was trying to make. I think it was a sincere attempt to help you. In spite of his sometimes quick tone, in the "Aloha spirit", your assumption should be that his intentions are good.

joejeweler
09-17-2011, 05:57 PM
O.K., I'm not taking my own advice, and getting drawn into something I may regret, but Joe, you are obviously a creative guy - and yet you seem to have some issues when it comes to any questions or suggestions to your methodology.

I haven't read about your patent project - no idea what it is. Let me just add to Rick's comments - and in the true Aloha spirit - that patents no longer function as they were originally intended. I think this is what Rick is trying to tell you.

My background is in furniture. I've had patents, watched them violated wholesale, and not had the funds to defend them. If you're up against a big boy, they'll just beat you down with their on staff lawyers. If it's a horde of overseas fellows in China - good luck with that.

Notice that Rick said he did best with selling one patent to a major guitar manufacturer. If you think you can do something like that, then the patent process is worthwhile. They have lawyers on staff - folks will not be as ready to take them on as they would you.

I think this is the point Rick was trying to make. I think it was a sincere attempt to help you. In spite of his sometimes quick tone, in the "Aloha spirit", your assumption should be that his intentions are good.

Hi,...i have no problem with Rick,....in fact i appreciate finding out thru him that protecting your patent is a tough job even if you get one that's useful. My problem was in a comment made by Sven, and i posted a response back in post #45 to address that,.....just thought in was a cheap shot.

....Rick was just commenting since it involved a potential patent issue, and he's been burned more than once there and i appreciate the imput.

southcoastukes
09-17-2011, 06:02 PM
I stand corrected.

Rick Turner
09-17-2011, 07:07 PM
That was me slapping down?

Nope, it was reality slapping down.

You're going to be in a minimum of $8,400.00 for your patent; those are your numbers. How much do you think you can get for a royalty for each uke that uses your idea? How many ukes a year might get built? Got a manufacturer ready to make them? Domestic or off-shore? What about foreign patent protection? What about China...the biggest producer of pirated goods in the world...got a friend in a company there who can cover your butt?

If you don't have marketing and income figured out, I think that patents are a waste of money. Just my opinion. Based on experience. Also based on talking extensively to my friend Ned Steinberger who has quite a few patents and makes money on some and not on others. If you don't have the financial side of the equation figured out, then patents are really a wonderful ego trip, and little else.

And every year that goes by without making income on your idea, the patent becomes worth about 1/17th less. I'm watching that happen to another friend, Rick Huff who designed what may be the best guitar trem system ever...and has less than 10 years left on his first patent that had all the real goods in it...and he still doesn't have any real manufacturing or distribution worked out.

And...good luck trying to walk in the door of any manufacturer or distributor with no track record in the Music Industry. You'll be asked to sign non-disclosure documents that will make you want to puke or shoot someone. They won't even look at ideas without being themselves major league protected from you suing them should they happen to have something in the hopper that is similar in any way to what you're doing. When I worked for Gibson in R&D, I was under strict orders to look at absolutely no outside submissions without it all going through Gibson's IP attorneys first. Same deal with Seymour Duncan and D-TAR of which I'm a part. I don't even want to know about it lest I already have it in my own lab notebook.

Just sayin'... And once again, it's do your homework. That extends to patent searches. I know of a number of patents that could be tossed out because the ideas were public domain...and the patent search folks at the USPTO did not know of the prior art. The USPTO does not guarantee the validity of patents; they leave that up to the courts. One perfect example...the fanned fret fingerboard...sorry, Ralph, it was done in the mid 1600's! Ditto Ned Steinberger's patent on making a guitar face with a "developable surface"...that is, the surface of a cylinder or cone which can be decoratively veneered with a flat piece of material...wood, carbon fiber, Formica, etc., to do a kind of arched top. Ned forgot that I'd done that 15 years before he got the patent which he assigned to Gibson. It came up in a lawsuit, and Gibson's lawyers had to concede the point.

Just sayin'...

joejeweler
09-17-2011, 07:54 PM
That was me slapping down?

Nope, it was reality slapping down.

You're going to be in a minimum of $8,400.00 for your patent; those are your numbers. How much do you think you can get for a royalty for each uke that uses your idea? How many ukes a year might get built? Got a manufacturer ready to make them? Domestic or off-shore? What about foreign patent protection? What about China...the biggest producer of pirated goods in the world...got a friend in a company there who can cover your butt?

If you don't have marketing and income figured out, I think that patents are a waste of money. Just my opinion. Based on experience. Also based on talking extensively to my friend Ned Steinberger who has quite a few patents and makes money on some and not on others. If you don't have the financial side of the equation figured out, then patents are really a wonderful ego trip, and little else.

And every year that goes by without making income on your idea, the patent becomes worth about 1/17th less. I'm watching that happen to another friend, Rick Huff who designed what may be the best guitar trem system ever...and has less than 10 years left on his first patent that had all the real goods in it...and he still doesn't have any real manufacturing or distribution worked out.

And...good luck trying to walk in the door of any manufacturer or distributor with no track record in the Music Industry. You'll be asked to sign non-disclosure documents that will make you want to puke or shoot someone. They won't even look at ideas without being themselves major league protected from you suing them should they happen to have something in the hopper that is similar in any way to what you're doing. When I worked for Gibson in R&D, I was under strict orders to look at absolutely no outside submissions without it all going through Gibson's IP attorneys first. Same deal with Seymour Duncan and D-TAR of which I'm a part. I don't even want to know about it lest I already have it in my own lab notebook.

Just sayin'... And once again, it's do your homework. That extends to patent searches. I know of a number of patents that could be tossed out because the ideas were public domain...and the patent search folks at the USPTO did not know of the prior art. The USPTO does not guarantee the validity of patents; they leave that up to the courts. One perfect example...the fanned fret fingerboard...sorry, Ralph, it was done in the mid 1600's! Ditto Ned Steinberger's patent on making a guitar face with a "developable surface"...that is, the surface of a cylinder or cone which can be decoratively veneered with a flat piece of material...wood, carbon fiber, Formica, etc., to do a kind of arched top. Ned forgot that I'd done that 15 years before he got the patent which he assigned to Gibson. It came up in a lawsuit, and Gibson's lawyers had to concede the point.

Just sayin'...

Rick,... yodidn't mean you slapping me down. I went back and edited a few posts ago. I was talking about the Sven comment and you assumed i meant you,......not the case.

Appreciate the additional patent info, btw.

Timbuck
09-18-2011, 01:21 AM
What's all this got to do with "New Status/Forum required" Thread ???:(...time to move on I think.

joejeweler
09-18-2011, 05:37 AM
What's all this got to do with "New Status/Forum required" Thread ???:(...time to move on I think.

Nothing really,.....but as Sven decided to incorperate a dig to me on this thread, i was simply responding and this thread went off track. Keep the belittleing comments out of posts and there won't be a need to respond. I let the 1st comment by Sven go and didn't respond (below), .....a dig in my experimental bridgepatch removal alteration of one of your style 0 replicas. But as he seems to want to continue to slam me in snide comments, i finally had enough.

Timbuck (Ken) has been known to respond likewise....:D

.....and you're right,....time to move on probably.



But yours has no bridge patch, no?

Sven


I think it was great that Rick started posting here. A big setback if you would stop. 23skidoo (despite the whacky name) makes a good point. Also, if you pros were to scuttle off to a subforum... I wouldn't know where I should put my posts.

Maybe a sticky post labelled "Newbies, patent seekers and inventors of The Wheel pls read". And in the sticky there would be a single line of advice: read before you post.

I know I'm a presumptious cynic, and I don't get all subtleties in English. I can be harsh and I have received several pm:s telling me so. But I'll try to stay away from threads likely to deteriorate into nonsense. If only everyone would research. And maybe harden up some.

UkuleleHill
09-18-2011, 08:34 AM
Nothing really,.....but as Sven decided to incorperate a dig to me on this thread, i was simply responding and this thread went off track. Keep the belittleing comments out of posts and there won't be a need to respond. I let the 1st comment by Sven go and didn't respond (below), .....a dig in my experimental bridgepatch removal alteration of one of your style 0 replicas. But as he seems to want to continue to slam me in snide comments, i finally had enough.

Timbuck (Ken) has been known to respond likewise....:D

.....and you're right,....time to move on probably.

I don't think anyone was slamming you in this thread. I think you read too far into something and are now trying to blow it out of proportion. I've warned you about this before Joe, take a few days off, if you feel better, come back, but I think you should take a few days for a breather.

Kekani
09-18-2011, 09:32 AM
I almost responded to the current thread in Uke Talk about the guy complaining about his Kiwaya. First he says action is too low causing buzzing, then says he could reset the nut AND saddle to correct the action but doesn't want to. Oh, lets not forget that he initially calls the saddle the nut (as in "the nut seats loose in the bridge", further complicating the issue). AND, the intonation is off going up the neck.

My first question is "How does he know the nut needs adjustment for his action (it may already be correct)?"

Granted, he does have a saddle that pops out too easily, but that doesn't mean RETURN it like he's being advised. Get a new saddle! Don't drive 160 miles, have the seller mail one to you for $1, if that.

Now for the kicker: he failed to mention in the initial post that he changed strings to Worths and NOW the instrument is buzzing and intonation is off. But he still wants to bring it back AFTER he changed something to make it "bad".

This is almost as bad as the guy who returned a Spruce top instrument that had shrinkage on the top (like I've seen on a few boutique guitars at NAMM) and slammed the seller saying that the instrument was "BROKEN".

WTF?

Thanks for letting me vent. . . sorry for hijacking this thread. . . gotta go get my coffee now. . .

Flyfish57
09-18-2011, 10:05 AM
Vent away!! It’s scary how much a post like that can affect a builder’s reputation.
On another note, I hope the comment I made in the most recently closed tread was taken as pure sarcasm. Often my sarcasm is lost on those who don’t know me

Pete Howlett
09-18-2011, 07:05 PM
I'm pretty saddened that some here just wont move on! For crying out loud grow up and get over yourselves - life is too short and you fellas are wasting too much time spittiing at each other!

Sven
09-18-2011, 11:14 PM
I think it was great that Rick started posting here. A big setback if you would stop. 23skidoo (despite the whacky name) makes a good point. Also, if you pros were to scuttle off to a subforum... I wouldn't know where I should put my posts.

Maybe a sticky post labelled "Newbies, patent seekers and inventors of The Wheel pls read". And in the sticky there would be a single line of advice: read before you post.

I know I'm a presumptious cynic, and I don't get all subtleties in English. I can be harsh and I have received several pm:s telling me so. But I'll try to stay away from threads likely to deteriorate into nonsense. If only everyone would research. And maybe harden up some.

Hey Joe, if you put some other of my words in bold the meaning is different and maybe less directed at you? And me poking fun at Ken by asking in jest about wether or not his splendid Martin replica had a bridge patch... Me and Ken know each other and have an on-going slag match. Don't read what we discuss at ukulelecosmos, it might be too much for a faint hearted bloke.

But never the less. I have made you angry and / or sad, and for that I offer my apologies. Together with a free piece of advice: harden up some. Life is more enjoyable with less tears and bruises.

I really thought about not writing any more in this thread but I figured an apology was in place.

resoman
09-19-2011, 12:14 PM
Dear Luthiers,
Just want to say that I also appreciate your input and comments. I try to ask questions only after I have exhausted the research possibilities and I know you really have jobs and have to make a living and are not working when you are here answering questions. I have really enjoyed the David Hurd website and there is just tons of information there. Some of it is over my head but I keep going back and rereading and some is starting to sink in. I'm not a luthier and never will be but I have really enjoyed building and it's kind of become obsessive to the point to where I am ignoring my own music. I'm not a uke player really but a dobro player but there is something about building the ukes that gives me great satisfaction. And, to see somebody playing something I made and hear the beautiful music coming out is wonderful and I get all worm and fuzzy inside. Really!
Thanks Again, Terry Harris

Rick Turner
09-19-2011, 01:41 PM
I personally have never hid behind a handle on-line and I would much rather others didn't either, but for some the handle is a game they play, for others it is something to hide behind. I think it's dumb, and in fact, if you are legit, it's counterproductive to your own reputation not to be known for what you say. I understand that many legit people post here and elsewhere under nicknames and assumed identities. It's not for me. If you like what I say, I'll take the credit. If you don't like what I say, at least I'll know that you know who it is whose words offend you. I don't say anything I'm not going to back up on line or in person.

Tudorp
09-19-2011, 02:02 PM
I personally have never hid behind a handle on-line and I would much rather others didn't either, but for some the handle is a game they play, for others it is something to hide behind. I think it's dumb, and in fact, if you are legit, it's counterproductive to your own reputation not to be known for what you say. I understand that many legit people post here and elsewhere under nicknames and assumed identities. It's not for me. If you like what I say, I'll take the credit. If you don't like what I say, at least I'll know that you know who it is whose words offend you. I don't say anything I'm not going to back up on line or in person.

Great, and legitimate point. I have used nicknames (I called it a "handle" once and my teenaged daughter didn't know what the hell I was talking about, hahhah.. Can ya say "10-4 good buddy? " lol.. But, I always use a nick name called me by club members and such in one of many clubs or organizations I am in. All my nicknames are generally related to that and are the same, and has been the same for 15 plus years, and actually mean something (I assume most are tho). However, like Rick mentioned, I hate those that hide behind "anonomous" and use that to be simply trolls or say things they would not dare say in person to someone. Most everyone, "on line" knows my real name, and my real email address, and where I live, and those that don't, I gladly offer it. . My handle is simply a nickname, but I do know that some do use that to hide behind. That, I have no respect or need for myself.

buddhuu
09-19-2011, 10:33 PM
The use of nicknames is as old as the Internet. Not only is it part of online culture (whether we like it or not), but some of the reasons people choose to use alternative names are far from dumb. One does not moderate forums or serve on forum advisory panels for long before encountering instances of stalking, hostility, intimidation. Anonymity can be a very practical safeguard against people who may mean harm. A good friend on another forum is currently getting US federal law enforcement involved in such a case where her daughter appeared to be threatened. There can be good reasons to hide.

On MandolinCafe I post under my real name as that is Scott's preference. On all other forums I am Buddhuu: a Hindi word meaning "fool", and a standing joke between me and some South Asian friends. I'm not hiding anything. People only have to click my Facebook link to see who I really am.

Tudorp
09-20-2011, 12:25 AM
Actually, I think the screen names are a relic that stems from the 1970's CB craze and nothing more than a CB handle. But, there are lots of boneheads that use it to hide behind. It's a false sense of security tho, because the technology is out there to find out where a message was sent from. I am retired IT, and my daughter was bantered on line by an "anonymous" user. He freaked when I sent him a personal email to his real personal email account and addressed him by his real name, gave him his home address, & phone # to prove to him he wasn't as anonymous as he thought he was. He immediatly stopped bantering my daughter.. <grin>

buddhuu
09-20-2011, 01:01 AM
If only all cases were so easily dealt with.

joejeweler
09-21-2011, 08:39 AM
Hey Joe, if you put some other of my words in bold the meaning is different and maybe less directed at you? And me poking fun at Ken by asking in jest about wether or not his splendid Martin replica had a bridge patch... Me and Ken know each other and have an on-going slag match. Don't read what we discuss at ukulelecosmos, it might be too much for a faint hearted bloke.

But never the less. I have made you angry and / or sad, and for that I offer my apologies. Together with a free piece of advice: harden up some. Life is more enjoyable with less tears and bruises.

I really thought about not writing any more in this thread but I figured an apology was in place.

Sven,....sorry it took so long to respond,.....i had a 3 day "time out" for what i said in post #56 of this thread i guess. Not sure what was so wrong there anyway,.....but i would like to say i accept your apology and am sorry for calling you on what i percieved as a slam done twice over.

Possibly my involvement on another thread at the same time left me feeling i had a bulleseye on my back, and i took your words in a way you never intended.

In any case,.....all is OK between you and me,.......and i'll try to be more tollerant in the future.

BTW,....i use "bold" in quotes not to change any meaning,.....simply to highlight the comments i am responding to. Quite often there is a long quote involved, and to avoid confusion a highlighted sentance or two saves time.

cheers,
Joe T