cold creep

Have heard mention of "cold creep" when using titebond 2 . what is it? does it mean the joint is likely to move or give in cold weather? I know I'm setting myself up for some humorous answers, but I really want to know as I've used titebond 2 before. heard it's better to use titebond 1.

No, not cold weather...it just moves very slowly under load at ambient temperature.

Why would anyone use a rubbery glue like T II in instruments? It's perhaps the worst choice you could make... I suspect it's that folks think that because its " 2 " it must be better...an improvement. It's not unless you need waterproof joints like in putting outside doors together or some such.

Learn how to use hot hide glue. Or use fish glue. Or LMI white glue. And for some joints, use epoxy.

thanks for your reply. I used it because I had it around and didn't know better. now I do.

Why would it be important to learn a new style of gluing when T2 works great and is a stronger joint than the ones mentioned. I hear all the time when old instruments fall apart due to the glue getting to hot in a car or whatever. T2 would never fail. The glue joint becomes stronger than the wood itself. I have used it for years and never once had a problem. I have also used white glue with no problems either. Also to clarify the T3 is the weather proof one and comes in a green bottle. Just my opinion.

did some research and found this for anyone interested:
"On instruments most glue joint failures are hardly ever related to the glues strength. The most common culprit is insufficient glue, heat exposure or poor surface to surface contact. "
from this web site:
http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/glue.php

Ukebuilder...or whoever you are; I beg to differ, and my opinion is backed up by some of the best in the business. Clearly you do not have much experience as an instrument repair tech, and you've bought into the wrong publicity from modern glue manufacturers. I'd suggest you read the links below to see what true masters of the craft think and have learned:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Glue/UseHideGlue/usehideglue1.html

http://www.acousticmusic.org/Hide-Glue-sp-85.html

And it's NOT a big deal to use. Look up Mario Proulx' methods, and here's his site: http://www.proulxguitars.com/buildup/build14.htm

Hot hide glue in a sqeeze bottle...simple to use, superior in all the important aspects for acoustically significant joints.

Who ever I am? Well I have power in my shop but that in a new invention as well as the newer glue. I also have power tools, but that is also newer to the old way of hand tools. Hmm I guess I have moved forward into the year 2011 and using what it has to offer. You can beg or differ but I disagree with you and your strong handed ideals. WOW people are different and we have the right to be. I can talk different and use different words and also use what ever I want to glue wood together. I don't believe it for a minute that glue is going to make a well built instrument sound bad.

ukebuilder said:

I don't believe it for a minute that glue is going to make a well built instrument sound bad.

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Probably not, but it will make a well built instrument sound better. All my bracing is now done with hide-glue...For me, there is no looking back!

I was just saying that T2 is not the worst choice for glue. I am not against hide glue at all, I have used it myself, but to change just because someone thinks it better is not a good reason. People all have their own opinion and that is what make this world great. If your at a level of your craft that you want to improve to the next level and glue is the thing that might get you their then by all means go for it. But if your just making them for fun and enjoyment then why would it matter. I have heard so many people argue that this is best or this is best. Its what you as the individual likes and that is it. I have seen hide glue fail many times. This is what is keeping me from using it on a day to day basis. If I feel like it would make what I make that much better then I will change but not because someone says so. Unless a customer came to me and said I should use it or ask me to then I might consider it. Just how I feel. Use what you want for wood or glue or whatever just keep doing it that is what is important.

Lets keep is civil guys...

I appreciate all the good info. thanks to all who responded. But Rick, you could see how saying something like "clearly you don't have much experience..." sounds pretty condescending and is unnecessary. We really don't know his experience. Something like "in my and others experience ..." might have a little more of the aloha spirit. And while it might have been a bad choice, mine was not the worst choice. I bought the uke off ebay and their bridge repair failed after 2 days.whatever they used[looked like superglue and I don't think they even clamped it. ] probably was worse, mine with tightbond2 is still holding. keeping my fingers crossed.

ukebuilder said:

Who ever I am? Well I have power in my shop but that in a new invention as well as the newer glue. I also have power tools, but that is also newer to the old way of hand tools. Hmm I guess I have moved forward into the year 2011 and using what it has to offer. You can beg or differ but I disagree with you and your strong handed ideals. WOW people are different and we have the right to be. I can talk different and use different words and also use what ever I want to glue wood together. I don't believe it for a minute that glue is going to make a well built instrument sound bad.

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Perhaps you should do a bit more research before you jump in with some strong opinions mocking people like Rick, Frank and Mario...along with countless others with your years of experience in the field. It only makes you look the fool.

I've used white glue (British brand) Titebond original,Titebond 2 (dark version co's it looks like hide glue when it sets), and Hide glue on the construction of the uke bodies and necks, (and all sorts of different glue types on bindings)...All with good results so far...As for Hide glue, I like using it it's the easiest to clean up and does a nice job, and i'm aware that there are examples of old instruments that hold together well with Hide glue over several decades ..But!!! there are loads of old Hide glue instruments out there turning up all the time,that didn't stand up to the test of time, like the example below..as for the modern glues .. ask me again in 2070...and I'll tell you whats the best one of these to use...You can do comparison tests until "the cows come home" but the only test you can't do is the "time test"

Tim Teel of the C.F.Martin R&D department told me that when they designed the "Authentic" series, they sought to use materials as original to the mid 1930s as possible, and that the one factor that he believed made the biggest difference in the tone (and the new D-18 A I played at the factory was one of the best guitars I've ever played of any age) was the use of hot hide glue in the construction. Nobody I know has as much experience with as many thousands of very carefully and consistently built instruments as Tim with the possible exception of Bob Taylor. Nowhere could you get a fairer test of guitars made with Titebond or equivalent and then with hot hide glue.

Having learned with hot hide glue in the 1960s, then gone to Titebond in the 1970s, and having come back to hot hide glue for certain glue joints, mostly in acoustic instruments in the past few years, and having seen what goes wrong with Titebond-style joints for several decades, I am no longer a believer in even Titebond 1.

Also, Ukebuilder, I do get snarky when people post using handles. I happen to think its a cheap trick used too often as a screen. I just happen to have a quirk: I am much more liable to grant respect to those who use their real names on-line. I like to know who my peers are. I do Google those who post on sites like this. I do visit their websites to see if they are worthy of peer respect. Sorry, but I'm a snarky elitist. I like to converse with good craftspeople whose work I know, who have some real experience, and whose work I respect. I am judgmental. I have high standards. And my own work stands up to peer scrutiny, and more importantly to my clients needs.

And I just have to say that too many builders have too little experience in the front lines of guitar (and uke) repair. You just don't know what goes wrong; you don't see the problems; you don't get to consider how to better build instruments that will hold up to the rigors of time. I gave up on guitar forums where someone would show pictures of fantastic wood and elaborate inlay, and then two months later ask how to find a loose fret or deal with an "S" bend in the fingerboard. Too many GLOs...guitar-like-objects. Builders who could miter purfles but didn't know jack about doing a refret or decent setup.

One more thing...most modern builders and repair techs using hot hide glue are MUCH more concerned with the freshness of the glue than were even the best of the factories in the old days. When I learned, we just added water or glue granules as seemingly needed. The glue pot always had a crust of funk on it. With more modern...and frankly easier techniques, and with better attention to viscosity, temperature, and freshness, modern hot hide glue joints should be vastly superior to the average.

And, sorry, but I just can't see how a rubbery glue joint is going to make a great sounding instrument. And T-2 is like rubber. No professional luthier I know would even consider doing a peghead overlay with the stuff.

I do not use T2 on instruments because of its likelihood to cold creep as well as its flexibility, which is what allows it to cold creep under tension. I have used T2 exclusively to glue up thousands of solid wood cremation urns. It is ideal for that purpose because these products tend to be in mild to severe climates and the glue is able to move with the expansion and contraction of the wood. That is not a feature I want in an instrument. I have used T1 exclusively to glue up about 100 instruments without problem, so I'll stick with what works. Incidentally, T2 is specifically designed to be water resistant but T3 is water-proof.

Allen said:

Perhaps you should do a bit more research before you jump in with some strong opinions mocking people like Rick, Frank and Mario...along with countless others with your years of experience in the field. It only makes you look the fool.

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I am not mocking anyone. I am just saying there are many ways of doing things and mine or yours is not wrong at all. I am just saying that you can not bash someone because of how they do it, or what they use. I myself have not had any problems and will keep on doing what I have done for years. Drawing lines in the sand over glue is stupid. Diversity is better than uniformity. If we all did the same thing and made the same thing we would not need a blog place to come and talk.

I was one of those who thought if T1 was good... T2 would have to be better. I have used both glues for many projects and never had a problem -- but, now after reading these discussions, I'll stick with T1 when I need to use it.

Years ago when I was doing bookbinding I used hot hide glue as it was used extensively in that craft for centuries. I still have a bag of hide glue granules saved from the old days, I'll bet it's still usable.

I've wondered if Titebond Liquid Hide Glue would have any advantages -- I've never used it.

Interesting discussions.

Hobo said:

I've wondered if Titebond Liquid Hide Glue would have any advantages -- I've never used it.

Interesting discussions.

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In the Fall 2010 issue of American Lutherie (the GAL mag) on page 69, Dale Zimmerman from Franklin International (AKA the Titebond Guys) responds to your question. He is answering a question about using hide glues in the tropics.
In short, he's says their liquid "hide" glue and most hot-pot hide glues are quite sensitive to moisture and "are considered a poor choice for bonds that are likely to be exposed to particularly humid conditions. especially those that are expected to be under meaningful stress.
I know builders around here stay away from animal glues because they feel they tend to deteriorate in humid environments.

I don't have a dog in this fight because I'm a vegetarian. Can't use hide glue or fish glue. Or even duck tape.
I use the ol' Titebond red cap. Partly because I'm lazy and partly because I have to make my own electricity. Running even a low wattage hot pot would fry my solar batteries and I'm not a fan of open flames burning all the time in my shop.

LMI's white glue dries to nearly the hardness of hot hide glue and has the convenience of Titebond and it's sold specifically as having low cold creep. We use it in a lot of joints in our acoustic-electric instruments where the reversability issue is lower and tonal issues are not so great.

But there is yet another reason to use hot hide glue...it sands so well. We do all of our center seams with HHG because when sanding it, it does not gum up the expensive wide belt sander belts. That's reason enough to use it...it saves money at about $60.00 per belt.

Still and all, though, why would one choose to use T-2 or T-3 over T-1 even anywhere on a "fine" instrument given the probable issues? Cost? No. Convenience? No. Appropriate use of the right adhesive in the right application? No... The use of T-2 or T-3 is just not logical if you think about ALL of the properties needed in a luthier's glue. Strength is but one factor here, and enough is enough. Heat resistance is another, and HHG does better than any T glue in that department. And for poorly fitted joints and wet climates, humidity is another, and yes, a nice gap filling glue might be best...so think epoxy. Reversability is an issue; HHG is great there, and the T-glues can come apart with heat (as can epoxy). The ability to repair slightly separated seams, braces, etc. is another for a repairman; and HHG has it all over any T-glue there...and over LMI white. And then there's the biggie...the one that is so hard to prove, but gets so much attention from some really good and experienced luthiers...the acoustic properties. I'm going with HHG with LMI white being second on the list.

I think you have to rate any glue on a list of properties to decide it's appropriateness. Then you might even weight the list depending on your taste and clients and depending on where in the instrument the joint is. Hence I choose epoxy for fingerboards to necks, but HHG for center seams on tops and backs on all bookmatched parts. And for acoustic guitars, if there's a chance in hell that HHG will help make for a better sounding box, I'm using it. It's just not that difficult, and there are all the other good reasons.

And then...to be honest...with Martin charging a $1,500.00 upcharge for guitars fully assembled with HHG and Santa Cruz and Collings getting up-charges for HHG instruments, there's a fantastic economic reason to build with HHG and to promote that fact. Bragging rights can = $$$, and it's hard enough being a professional luthier these days without having some tricks that can distinguish your ukes or guitars from Taylor or Larrivee or Yamaha or whomever. Yes, there's a bottom line...you can charge more for HHG. Everyone else does.

Finally, if you are going to do ethical repair work on pre-1960 (or so) instruments, you're going to have to use HHG. There are standards for working on vintage and antique instruments, and period appropriate materials is at the top of the list. I just taught my 16 year old son how to use HHG repairing seams in an early 1920s banjo-uke. He got it instantly, loved it, and now wants a glue pot for Christmas!

ukebuilder said:

I am not mocking anyone. I am just saying there are many ways of doing things and mine or yours is not wrong at all. I am just saying that you can not bash someone because of how they do it, or what they use. I myself have not had any problems and will keep on doing what I have done for years. Drawing lines in the sand over glue is stupid. Diversity is better than uniformity. If we all did the same thing and made the same thing we would not need a blog place to come and talk.

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Let's all move on to the next debatable topic