PDA

View Full Version : cold creep



strumsilly
11-30-2011, 05:16 AM
Have heard mention of "cold creep" when using titebond 2 . what is it? does it mean the joint is likely to move or give in cold weather? I know I'm setting myself up for some humorous answers, but I really want to know as I've used titebond 2 before. heard it's better to use titebond 1.

Rick Turner
11-30-2011, 05:22 AM
No, not cold weather...it just moves very slowly under load at ambient temperature.

Why would anyone use a rubbery glue like T II in instruments? It's perhaps the worst choice you could make... I suspect it's that folks think that because its " 2 " it must be better...an improvement. It's not unless you need waterproof joints like in putting outside doors together or some such.

Learn how to use hot hide glue. Or use fish glue. Or LMI white glue. And for some joints, use epoxy.

strumsilly
11-30-2011, 06:28 AM
thanks for your reply. I used it because I had it around and didn't know better. now I do.

ukebuilder
11-30-2011, 06:34 AM
Why would it be important to learn a new style of gluing when T2 works great and is a stronger joint than the ones mentioned. I hear all the time when old instruments fall apart due to the glue getting to hot in a car or whatever. T2 would never fail. The glue joint becomes stronger than the wood itself. I have used it for years and never once had a problem. I have also used white glue with no problems either. Also to clarify the T3 is the weather proof one and comes in a green bottle. Just my opinion.

strumsilly
11-30-2011, 06:47 AM
did some research and found this for anyone interested:
"On instruments most glue joint failures are hardly ever related to the glues strength. The most common culprit is insufficient glue, heat exposure or poor surface to surface contact. "
from this web site:
http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/repair/acoustic-guitar/glue.php

Rick Turner
11-30-2011, 07:18 AM
Ukebuilder...or whoever you are; I beg to differ, and my opinion is backed up by some of the best in the business. Clearly you do not have much experience as an instrument repair tech, and you've bought into the wrong publicity from modern glue manufacturers. I'd suggest you read the links below to see what true masters of the craft think and have learned:

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Glue/UseHideGlue/usehideglue1.html

http://www.acousticmusic.org/Hide-Glue-sp-85.html

And it's NOT a big deal to use. Look up Mario Proulx' methods, and here's his site: http://www.proulxguitars.com/buildup/build14.htm

Hot hide glue in a sqeeze bottle...simple to use, superior in all the important aspects for acoustically significant joints.

ukebuilder
11-30-2011, 07:48 AM
Who ever I am? Well I have power in my shop but that in a new invention as well as the newer glue. I also have power tools, but that is also newer to the old way of hand tools. Hmm I guess I have moved forward into the year 2011 and using what it has to offer. You can beg or differ but I disagree with you and your strong handed ideals. WOW people are different and we have the right to be. I can talk different and use different words and also use what ever I want to glue wood together. I don't believe it for a minute that glue is going to make a well built instrument sound bad.

Flyfish57
11-30-2011, 08:18 AM
I don't believe it for a minute that glue is going to make a well built instrument sound bad.

Probably not, but it will make a well built instrument sound better. All my bracing is now done with hide-glue...For me, there is no looking back!

ukebuilder
11-30-2011, 08:32 AM
I was just saying that T2 is not the worst choice for glue. I am not against hide glue at all, I have used it myself, but to change just because someone thinks it better is not a good reason. People all have their own opinion and that is what make this world great. If your at a level of your craft that you want to improve to the next level and glue is the thing that might get you their then by all means go for it. But if your just making them for fun and enjoyment then why would it matter. I have heard so many people argue that this is best or this is best. Its what you as the individual likes and that is it. I have seen hide glue fail many times. This is what is keeping me from using it on a day to day basis. If I feel like it would make what I make that much better then I will change but not because someone says so. Unless a customer came to me and said I should use it or ask me to then I might consider it. Just how I feel. Use what you want for wood or glue or whatever just keep doing it that is what is important.

UkuleleHill
11-30-2011, 08:54 AM
Lets keep is civil guys...

strumsilly
11-30-2011, 09:11 AM
I appreciate all the good info. thanks to all who responded. But Rick, you could see how saying something like "clearly you don't have much experience..." sounds pretty condescending and is unnecessary. We really don't know his experience. Something like "in my and others experience ..." might have a little more of the aloha spirit. And while it might have been a bad choice, mine was not the worst choice. I bought the uke off ebay and their bridge repair failed after 2 days.whatever they used[looked like superglue and I don't think they even clamped it. ] probably was worse, mine with tightbond2 is still holding. keeping my fingers crossed.

Allen
11-30-2011, 09:22 AM
Who ever I am? Well I have power in my shop but that in a new invention as well as the newer glue. I also have power tools, but that is also newer to the old way of hand tools. Hmm I guess I have moved forward into the year 2011 and using what it has to offer. You can beg or differ but I disagree with you and your strong handed ideals. WOW people are different and we have the right to be. I can talk different and use different words and also use what ever I want to glue wood together. I don't believe it for a minute that glue is going to make a well built instrument sound bad.

Perhaps you should do a bit more research before you jump in with some strong opinions mocking people like Rick, Frank and Mario...along with countless others with your years of experience in the field. It only makes you look the fool.

Timbuck
11-30-2011, 09:38 AM
I've used white glue (British brand) Titebond original,Titebond 2 (dark version co's it looks like hide glue when it sets), and Hide glue on the construction of the uke bodies and necks, (and all sorts of different glue types on bindings)...All with good results so far...As for Hide glue, I like using it it's the easiest to clean up and does a nice job, and i'm aware that there are examples of old instruments that hold together well with Hide glue over several decades ..But!!! there are loads of old Hide glue instruments out there turning up all the time,that didn't stand up to the test of time, like the example below..as for the modern glues .. ask me again in 2070...and I'll tell you whats the best one of these to use...You can do comparison tests until "the cows come home" but the only test you can't do is the "time test" :)
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/nunescrack.jpg

Rick Turner
11-30-2011, 10:00 AM
Tim Teel of the C.F.Martin R&D department told me that when they designed the "Authentic" series, they sought to use materials as original to the mid 1930s as possible, and that the one factor that he believed made the biggest difference in the tone (and the new D-18 A I played at the factory was one of the best guitars I've ever played of any age) was the use of hot hide glue in the construction. Nobody I know has as much experience with as many thousands of very carefully and consistently built instruments as Tim with the possible exception of Bob Taylor. Nowhere could you get a fairer test of guitars made with Titebond or equivalent and then with hot hide glue.

Having learned with hot hide glue in the 1960s, then gone to Titebond in the 1970s, and having come back to hot hide glue for certain glue joints, mostly in acoustic instruments in the past few years, and having seen what goes wrong with Titebond-style joints for several decades, I am no longer a believer in even Titebond 1.

Also, Ukebuilder, I do get snarky when people post using handles. I happen to think its a cheap trick used too often as a screen. I just happen to have a quirk: I am much more liable to grant respect to those who use their real names on-line. I like to know who my peers are. I do Google those who post on sites like this. I do visit their websites to see if they are worthy of peer respect. Sorry, but I'm a snarky elitist. I like to converse with good craftspeople whose work I know, who have some real experience, and whose work I respect. I am judgmental. I have high standards. And my own work stands up to peer scrutiny, and more importantly to my clients needs.

And I just have to say that too many builders have too little experience in the front lines of guitar (and uke) repair. You just don't know what goes wrong; you don't see the problems; you don't get to consider how to better build instruments that will hold up to the rigors of time. I gave up on guitar forums where someone would show pictures of fantastic wood and elaborate inlay, and then two months later ask how to find a loose fret or deal with an "S" bend in the fingerboard. Too many GLOs...guitar-like-objects. Builders who could miter purfles but didn't know jack about doing a refret or decent setup.

One more thing...most modern builders and repair techs using hot hide glue are MUCH more concerned with the freshness of the glue than were even the best of the factories in the old days. When I learned, we just added water or glue granules as seemingly needed. The glue pot always had a crust of funk on it. With more modern...and frankly easier techniques, and with better attention to viscosity, temperature, and freshness, modern hot hide glue joints should be vastly superior to the average.

And, sorry, but I just can't see how a rubbery glue joint is going to make a great sounding instrument. And T-2 is like rubber. No professional luthier I know would even consider doing a peghead overlay with the stuff.

thistle3585
11-30-2011, 10:17 AM
I do not use T2 on instruments because of its likelihood to cold creep as well as its flexibility, which is what allows it to cold creep under tension. I have used T2 exclusively to glue up thousands of solid wood cremation urns. It is ideal for that purpose because these products tend to be in mild to severe climates and the glue is able to move with the expansion and contraction of the wood. That is not a feature I want in an instrument. I have used T1 exclusively to glue up about 100 instruments without problem, so I'll stick with what works. Incidentally, T2 is specifically designed to be water resistant but T3 is water-proof.

ukebuilder
11-30-2011, 10:42 AM
Perhaps you should do a bit more research before you jump in with some strong opinions mocking people like Rick, Frank and Mario...along with countless others with your years of experience in the field. It only makes you look the fool.

I am not mocking anyone. I am just saying there are many ways of doing things and mine or yours is not wrong at all. I am just saying that you can not bash someone because of how they do it, or what they use. I myself have not had any problems and will keep on doing what I have done for years. Drawing lines in the sand over glue is stupid. Diversity is better than uniformity. If we all did the same thing and made the same thing we would not need a blog place to come and talk.

Hobo
11-30-2011, 10:45 AM
I was one of those who thought if T1 was good... T2 would have to be better. I have used both glues for many projects and never had a problem -- but, now after reading these discussions, I'll stick with T1 when I need to use it.

Years ago when I was doing bookbinding I used hot hide glue as it was used extensively in that craft for centuries. I still have a bag of hide glue granules saved from the old days, I'll bet it's still usable.

I've wondered if Titebond Liquid Hide Glue would have any advantages -- I've never used it.

Interesting discussions.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
11-30-2011, 11:44 AM
I've wondered if Titebond Liquid Hide Glue would have any advantages -- I've never used it.

Interesting discussions.

In the Fall 2010 issue of American Lutherie (the GAL mag) on page 69, Dale Zimmerman from Franklin International (AKA the Titebond Guys) responds to your question. He is answering a question about using hide glues in the tropics.
In short, he's says their liquid "hide" glue and most hot-pot hide glues are quite sensitive to moisture and "are considered a poor choice for bonds that are likely to be exposed to particularly humid conditions. especially those that are expected to be under meaningful stress.
I know builders around here stay away from animal glues because they feel they tend to deteriorate in humid environments.

I don't have a dog in this fight because I'm a vegetarian. Can't use hide glue or fish glue. Or even duck tape.
I use the ol' Titebond red cap. Partly because I'm lazy and partly because I have to make my own electricity. Running even a low wattage hot pot would fry my solar batteries and I'm not a fan of open flames burning all the time in my shop.

Rick Turner
11-30-2011, 12:15 PM
LMI's white glue dries to nearly the hardness of hot hide glue and has the convenience of Titebond and it's sold specifically as having low cold creep. We use it in a lot of joints in our acoustic-electric instruments where the reversability issue is lower and tonal issues are not so great.

But there is yet another reason to use hot hide glue...it sands so well. We do all of our center seams with HHG because when sanding it, it does not gum up the expensive wide belt sander belts. That's reason enough to use it...it saves money at about $60.00 per belt.

Still and all, though, why would one choose to use T-2 or T-3 over T-1 even anywhere on a "fine" instrument given the probable issues? Cost? No. Convenience? No. Appropriate use of the right adhesive in the right application? No... The use of T-2 or T-3 is just not logical if you think about ALL of the properties needed in a luthier's glue. Strength is but one factor here, and enough is enough. Heat resistance is another, and HHG does better than any T glue in that department. And for poorly fitted joints and wet climates, humidity is another, and yes, a nice gap filling glue might be best...so think epoxy. Reversability is an issue; HHG is great there, and the T-glues can come apart with heat (as can epoxy). The ability to repair slightly separated seams, braces, etc. is another for a repairman; and HHG has it all over any T-glue there...and over LMI white. And then there's the biggie...the one that is so hard to prove, but gets so much attention from some really good and experienced luthiers...the acoustic properties. I'm going with HHG with LMI white being second on the list.

I think you have to rate any glue on a list of properties to decide it's appropriateness. Then you might even weight the list depending on your taste and clients and depending on where in the instrument the joint is. Hence I choose epoxy for fingerboards to necks, but HHG for center seams on tops and backs on all bookmatched parts. And for acoustic guitars, if there's a chance in hell that HHG will help make for a better sounding box, I'm using it. It's just not that difficult, and there are all the other good reasons.

And then...to be honest...with Martin charging a $1,500.00 upcharge for guitars fully assembled with HHG and Santa Cruz and Collings getting up-charges for HHG instruments, there's a fantastic economic reason to build with HHG and to promote that fact. Bragging rights can = $$$, and it's hard enough being a professional luthier these days without having some tricks that can distinguish your ukes or guitars from Taylor or Larrivee or Yamaha or whomever. Yes, there's a bottom line...you can charge more for HHG. Everyone else does.

Finally, if you are going to do ethical repair work on pre-1960 (or so) instruments, you're going to have to use HHG. There are standards for working on vintage and antique instruments, and period appropriate materials is at the top of the list. I just taught my 16 year old son how to use HHG repairing seams in an early 1920s banjo-uke. He got it instantly, loved it, and now wants a glue pot for Christmas!

Dan Uke
11-30-2011, 02:20 PM
I am not mocking anyone. I am just saying there are many ways of doing things and mine or yours is not wrong at all. I am just saying that you can not bash someone because of how they do it, or what they use. I myself have not had any problems and will keep on doing what I have done for years. Drawing lines in the sand over glue is stupid. Diversity is better than uniformity. If we all did the same thing and made the same thing we would not need a blog place to come and talk.

Let's all move on to the next debatable topic

ukebuilder
11-30-2011, 02:22 PM
That sounds great maybe I should ask Santa for a glue pot. LOL , I have to say this started out rough but turned out to be informational. I did learn that when your having a bad day don't get on a public form. Now after a few beverages I am feeling much better. Plus I learned a new word, "Snarky" I might even have to use it. I would say I was wrong if I was, but I don't feel I am.

BlackBearUkes
11-30-2011, 04:52 PM
One thing I use Titebond III for is gluing wood purfling to the top and sides of bindings like Cocobola and other rosewoods. When thoroughly cured, you can soak in water and then bend it with a heat blanket and it won't deform or come apart. This glue works great for woods with a lot of resins.

Ken W
11-30-2011, 05:50 PM
The glue pot always had a crust of funk on it.

I used to work in a custom stair shop that was started by two brothers in the late 1800's. The shop had shifted to "modern" glues long before I got there, but the original HHG pots were still sitting on the burners (long since disconnected) with a hundred years, or so, of crusty funk on them. Some of the patterns that we worked with and even some of the benches and machines in the shop were glued with the stuff and they were still holding tight many year's later. This is an interesting (and yes...a bit snarky) thread that has piqued my interest. I think I'll give the HHG a try.

joejeweler
11-30-2011, 06:20 PM
I was one of those who thought if T1 was good... T2 would have to be better. I have used both glues for many projects and never had a problem -- but, now after reading these discussions, I'll stick with T1 when I need to use it.

Years ago when I was doing bookbinding I used hot hide glue as it was used extensively in that craft for centuries. I still have a bag of hide glue granules saved from the old days, I'll bet it's still usable.

I've wondered if Titebond Liquid Hide Glue would have any advantages -- I've never used it.

Interesting discussions.

Heh,...well,....we all learn. I had some Titebond liquid hide glue laying around (maybe a year or so), and never used it up until about 2 months ago. I had known hot hide glue was good for acoustic instruments,....just thought the Titebond liquid hide glue version was a modern convenience type comparable. They are not......

Had i known then what i know now, i would have used Titebond 1 original or "real" hot hide glue for the stressed joint on one of my 4 prototype projects. It has held up OK for the past 2 months or so, but after reading some horror stories of this glue i still cross my fingers it will stay put.

One silver lining is that the Titebond liquid hide glue cleans up with water, so if it ever lets loose i should be able to clean it all off and redo the joint with original Titebond. Lets hope i don't have to test that theory.

I will say that Rick comes off sometimes as a bit rough around the edges,..... god knows i have had a few sparring matches with him. That said, he does have a lot of experience and knowledge in the instrument making field, and glue choices based on longterm suitability are part of the experience gained.

Certainly something to consider..........just ignore the "snarky" bedside manner! :D

southcoastukes
11-30-2011, 06:23 PM
I've used a lot of hide glue in furniture restoration, partly because with good antiques you need to go back with what was there in the first place.

But just as importantly, there's no glue that can be "fired out" of the pores of an old joint like hide glue, and so the new application penetrates as deeply, and bonds as well as the original. No other glue allows this kind of complete repair - and on a mortise and tenon it can be done over and over again for hundreds of years. Any other glue gives a weak repair -you're only rebonding old glue-sealed surfaces - no pore pentration.

One thing I've often wondered. Someone (maybe Titebond), put out a study claiming their cold hide glue held as well as hot glue. I never really beleived it - the heat has so much to do with the penetration. If I recall the study never mentioned how the glues were applied in the test.

It ocurred to me that if you let the hot glue cool, they probably would test out the same. Then I started to wonder what would happen if you took a little cold hide and popped it in a microwave. Would it work like hot glue? Has anyone tried? It would be one way for those of us who only use small aplications to avoid the glue pot (and the spoilage).

Finally, my one reservation about the hide glue is what Chuck metioned. We're sub-tropical and very humid in Louisiana, and it doesn't hold up as well here as other places. My partner Omar in Central America says he can't use it successfully, and that's where our instruments are constructed. Up here I do fit & finish - the only gluing for me is the bridge (or the Pegheds). I've settled for Red Cap on the bridges, but I'm going to give the LMI white a try, Rick - I always felt the Red was a little rubbery.

Rick Turner
12-01-2011, 03:13 AM
Dirk, go to www.frets.com and find Frank's treatise on using HHG. Yes, you can freeze the stuff and re-liquify it in a microwave. Frank does it with little specimen cups. Others use plastic ice cube trays. I like Mario Proulx' method of keeping it in 3 oz. squeeze bottles with some stainless steel nuts and screws in the bottle to help hold heat and also keep the bottle upright in the hot water bath in the glue pot. The squeeze bottles make dispensing HHG no more difficult than regular T-Bond glue...no messy glue brush. We keep a heat gun right there in the glue up area to warm the parts before applying glue if clamping up time is likely to exceed a minute. However, many joints can be clamped up very quickly if you just prepare properly ahead of time. For instance, using the go-bar deck, it doesn't take any more than 60 seconds to glue and clamp the top or back onto a set of guitar sides...less for a uke. Why should it take longer if you're really ready to do it?

Michael Smith
12-01-2011, 04:25 AM
I am hoping some wise guy comes up with a way to make a hot hide glue gun. I did some looking into it and there are guns for chocolate that run about the right temp that should work but they aren't cheap. I bet with the right binders you could make HHG sticks that would go into a regular glue gun.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-01-2011, 05:02 AM
Finally, my one reservation about the hide glue is what Chuck metioned. We're sub-tropical and very humid in Louisiana, and it doesn't hold up as well here as other places. My partner Omar in Central America says he can't use it successfully, and that's where our instruments are constructed. Up here I do fit & finish - the only gluing for me is the bridge (or the Pegheds). I've settled for Red Cap on the bridges, but I'm going to give the LMI white a try, Rick - I always felt the Red was a little rubbery.

I build in a climate controlled environment so I could safely use HHG but who knows where the instrument will spend it's life? There is a certain uke manufacturer here that used to use fish glue that has kept many repair people busy throughout the years.
I've mentioned the experience I've had with the LMI glue before. I dumped the four bottles I had bought and tried it again. All I can say is that the couple of us who have tried it on the Big Island have been very unhappy with it. My suggestion is to test everything first for yourself before taking anyone's recommendation.

Rick Turner
12-01-2011, 05:28 AM
Chuck, I'm sending your comments re LMI glue to Chris Herrod at LMI to see what he says.

resoman
12-01-2011, 05:45 AM
I've had really good luck with the LMI and have used it on the last six builds. I tested it against the Original Titebond and it seemed to hold at least as well. I live in a very dry, deserty climate so maybe that's one of the differences. Usually the humidity is in the teens and low 20s
I'm almost ready to try the HHG but I worry about getting things in position before the stuff sets up. The gobar deck idea seems like a person could get it all down before that critical set.

Rick Turner
12-01-2011, 06:27 AM
Literally millions of instruments were made with HHG before modern cold use glues came on the market. There was nothing the luthiers of the past did that we cannot do. The issue of getting things set up and clamped is hugely over-stated. If you prepare ahead of time...as you should anyway...and you work efficiently, the open to clamped time is no big deal with any glue joint where HHG is appropriate. And, yes, you can extend the open time by heating the parts.

I just do not understand why people are so intimidated by this...

It must be "glutencoriumvervensophobia" That would be "fear of glue-animal-hide-hot" in Latin...

Liam Ryan
12-01-2011, 09:40 AM
I use HHG for all bar a couple of joints in my ukes. I never pre heat anything. Coming into summer it is very sweaty here though. People find it hard to get their head around it but HHG is easier to use than outta-the-bottle glues. It sands easier, doesn't need to be completely sanded off before the next glue up, it cleans up easier, if a bit of binding or some such has a small gap just hit it with a heat gun and pull it in with a clamp.

If it take you more than 60 sec to glue on a top or back you need to rethink your methods.

resoman
12-01-2011, 10:25 AM
I just do not understand why people are so intimidated by this...

It must be "glutencoriumvervensophobia" That would be "fear of glue-animal-hide-hot" in Latin...
My shrink is slowly helping me to see the light but thinks it will take many more sessions :eek:

southcoastukes
12-01-2011, 01:21 PM
I've mentioned the experience I've had with the LMI glue before.....

Found the LMI thread, Chuck. Thanks much for the heads up. Will be interesting to see what sort of reply Rick gets from them in regards to your (and other's) experience.

Rick Turner
12-01-2011, 02:09 PM
Given that practically everything that goes from mainland to Hawaii goes by airplane, and given that we know that polyvinyl and "aliphatic" resin glues do very poorly if they freeze, the issue could be that the LMI stuff froze in the belly of a plane and then thawed. That would indeed ruin it. We've used the stuff on probably a couple of thousand instruments without issues.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-01-2011, 04:00 PM
Hmmm. Do you know that the cargo hold on airplanes freeze? What about the ukes I ship that travel by plane? Do they freeze too? How about the See's chocolates I order? If they froze they would be white when I get them. That's more of a disaster than glue freezing.
These are things I do not know. I will do some research.

Michael Smith
12-01-2011, 05:29 PM
It is my understanding that pilots set the cargo area temperature according to customer needs and would never set as low as 0 C. They may go as low as 5 C if the customer requires it, say as a shipment of fruit or something like that. Maybe LMI is shipping their glue in old WW2 bombers and then doing a secret rosewood pickup on a lonely South American airstrip on the way back. Didn't they just get busted for something like that? California Girl, LMI is in California. Don't you think that is just too much of a coincidence.http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBnBgmbu5UVaNSnwDNDDQ33KTv6fUyf 9h3n-MobGRdU9BIoKW3ewhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSPWY1WgP7E8hXKulvenll9S4PCXDK4w ZsvMI_LFjrq8YcAPixM
Now we have the pics.

Tarhead
12-01-2011, 05:39 PM
Tim McKnight produced a few papers on the relative hardness and vibrational decay of different adhesives. http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-hardness.html and http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-vib.html

HHG tested out as the hardest and LMI's White glue gave the best vibrational decay performance when he tested on small Steel bars. HHG formed crystals and crazed if allowed to form a thick layer (ie: when using it to fill gaps) and LMI white was slightly less hard than HHG and chips when machined.

The take home for me is use HHG when you have precise, tight joints and non-complicated glue-ups. Use LMI White when you need more open time and potential gap filling. I use both taking advantage of their respective strengths along with Plastic Urea Resin glue (Weldwood) for bent laminations and laminating oily wood veneers.

Mark

Rick Turner
12-01-2011, 06:06 PM
That is all perfectly in line with my experience and usage other than the Weldwood. I use epoxy instead because I prefer not to introduce water into major lamination glue lines.

Rick Turner
12-02-2011, 06:43 AM
This from Chris at LMI:

Hi Rick,
Thanks for asking. As with anything, after you sell a few thousand bottles
there are bound to be a few problems here and there, but it has been really,
really rare that anyone has complained about the glue. That being said,
there was a little bump in the number of gripes about two years ago and we
suspected a bad batch and talked with our manufacturer. Still, most people
had no problem at all. We definitely took the problem to heart knowing how
catastrophic a joint failure can be. I continue to recommend the glue
wholeheartedly and am pleased to hear that you have been happy with it.
One funky thing is that if the glue is left on a surface and dries in cool
conditions it can leave a white residue, still the joint strength in these
cases does not seem to be compromised.
That's about it!

Best Regards,
Chris Herrod

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
12-02-2011, 08:51 AM
That's good follow up work., thanks Rick.

Keep in mind lots of people won't complain about a product. When there are other products to choose from they'll just move on. And I know that many people will never test an adhesive against another one. They'll just follow the buzz about and assume it'll work for them. I would never have tested it myself if another builder hadn't pointed out to me the problems he's had with it.
Enough people have used the product with success to convince me that my experience with it was unique. I'm tempted to order some more and try it again. As far as the HHG goes, I'm not convinced it is the best choice for my environment.

Pete Howlett
12-02-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm sorry guys but i don't buy into all this. As soon as an alternative came buy, industry dumped hot hide glue and entered the modern age. Use it if you want but for me it only has one virtue - I don't have to use it!

joejeweler
12-02-2011, 12:32 PM
That's good follow up work., thanks Rick.

Keep in mind lots of people won't complain about a product. When there are other products to choose from they'll just move on. And I know that many people will never test an adhesive against another one. They'll just follow the buzz about and assume it'll work for them. I would never have tested it myself if another builder hadn't pointed out to me the problems he's had with it.
Enough people have used the product with success to convince me that my experience with it was unique. I'm tempted to order some more and try it again. As far as the HHG goes, I'm not convinced it is the best choice for my environment.

Chuck,....i'm a bit curious about "how" you tested the LMI glue? Did you put together an actual ukulele (possibly with lower graded woods?), or simply glue some scrap pieces of wood together and stress them to the point of breaking the joint? Any comparative tests alongside Titebond at the same time? etc,........

For you to have been turned off by the glue in your environment,....it must have been pretty bad. :eek:

southcoastukes
12-02-2011, 12:54 PM
Chuck,....i'm a bit curious about "how" you tested the LMI glue? Did you put together an actual ukulele (possibly with lower graded woods?), or simply glue some scrap pieces of wood together and stress them to the point of breaking the joint? Any comparative tests alongside Titebond at the same time? etc,........

Take a look here, Joe:

http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?53879-LMI-Glue&highlight=Glue

Michael Smith
12-02-2011, 03:02 PM
Does anyone know if the LMI white glue is made in small batches for LMI or is made in larger runs and repurposed by LMI? I have posed that question to LMI directly but am not sure I will get a response as it my seem I am trying to go around them for a less expensive glue. Not my intent.

Vic D
12-02-2011, 03:22 PM
I want to know what everyone thinks about fish glue for binding. I want to use the fish glue for binding because of the long open time AND CLEAN UP but I've heard bad things about it. It could be that certain brands of fish glue are better than others and if that's the case then which brand is the best?
I've been using all titebond red (CLEAN UP IS A PAIN!) but I've purchased a mini crock pot from the thrift store for a dollar and now I'm ready to do the hide glue thang... longevity and tone = right on.

Come on guys... you know Titebond is a pain in the backside to clean up and I'm sooooo tired of seeing glue spots after I've put the first coat of lacquer on. I wipe the instrument with mineral spirits to detect any leftover glue but there's always a little surprise when the lacquer goes on... tired of that. And I don't have enough thickness in the ukes to keep sanding...

And what's up with Titebond releasing a milky smudge when shellac is applied? It's like the shellac melts the titebond and penetrates a bit into the joint... that's not cool at all. And I mean tight joints... no gaps...

joejeweler
12-02-2011, 04:20 PM
Take a look here, Joe:

http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?53879-LMI-Glue&highlight=Glue

Thanks,...that pretty much answers my questions regarding the testing that was done.

I will say i found Rick's quote from a Chris at LMI a bit strange, wherein he mentioned if it was cool their glue tended to form some white residue. But that is common using Titebond from what i have seen. I've cleaned a lot of that fairly loose white residue off of several high end ukuleles, and from around some Titebond (original) glue joints i initiate.
Just figured that's what Titebond did,.........except i rarely saw it on several high end custom guitars i have purchased. A bit strange in that regard......that i've noticed it more in ukulele production????