Recommendations for altering tone

My friend and I have been building soprano ukuleles. We like most aspects of the tone: ultra bright, surprising sustain, loud. If there is something lacking though, for me, it would be that the bass, if you could call it bass, is a little shallow. The ukuleles are very light, feel lighter than may Martin Style O. Braced identically to the Martin. We're using 1/16" for top and back, only a little thicker on the sides. Could we be building too light? Bone nut and saddle. Any recommendations would be most appreciated.

If you are going to compare what you are building to early Martin mahogany style 0 ukes, the main thing you don't have is well seasoned, light weight 75 year old Honduran mahogany. Perhaps you could be more specific about the woods, glue and building techniques. Ken (Timbuck) could be helpful in this thread.

Thanks for your response, Duane. Yes, it is not old growth honduran mahogany that we used. Got any? Anyway, we have been using both instrument grade honduran mahogany and koa sets. The instruments all sound quite similar one to another, which is to say that the treble dominates regardless of the wood. The bass just doesn't ring as long as the treble. I've tried Aquila, Worth, and Martin strings on them. While the typical differences in these strings is evident, the string changes do not alter the treble/bass balance. The glue, forgive me (I've been following the glue thread), is Titebond 1. We have been using the Scott Antes plans with some modifications according to Grellier as recommended by Pete Howlett. We arch the backs and the back braces, use kerfed mahogany linings, spruce bracing, mahogany bridge patch.

It's not that the ukuleles sound bad, they don't, especially when compared to contemporary, factory-built ukuleles. My wife actually prefers the sound of our ukuleles to all of my others, with the exception of the vintage Martins...at least that is what she says. Indeed, I may be way too fussy; but for my satisfaction, I'd just like to learn what adjustments are possible. What kinds of modifications impact the tone in what ways. Perhaps mahogany nuts and saddles? That would be an easy matter.

I, too, hope Ken will chime in.

I'd also like to mention, although it is off topic for this thread, that I like your painted ukuleles. I have been an exhibiting artist and college-level art instructor for the past two decades or so and really enjoyed seeing your Gauguin and Cubist ukuleles...very nicely done.

One thing to check, if you can, is the body resonance should be around C4. I use my Iphone and Peterson's strobosoft application. Hold the uke, without strings, by the neck and tap the bridge. The note you get is a combination of the Helmholtz resonance and the vibrational qualities of the wood. As the lowest note played is C4, you want the body to be able to vibrate around there.

Brad

Oh, rosewood or ebony fingerboard. mahogany necks and bridges. Thanks, again.

Bradford said:

One thing to check, if you can, is the body resonance should be around C4. I use my Iphone and Peterson's strobosoft application. Hold the uke, without strings, by the neck and tap the bridge. The note you get is a combination of the Helmholtz resonance and the vibrational qualities of the wood. As the lowest note played is C4, you want the body to be able to vibrate around there.

Brad

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What if it doesn't resonate at C4?

Using the same app on an iPhone, the concert that I am building resonates at Bflat3 (no bridge installed yet). I hope that the effort isn't doomed.

There may not be much you can do at that point. Sanding the edges of the top and back will lower the tone. My first sopranos were right around D4; as my construction got lighter, they came down to C#4. Now they are from C4+30 cents to C4 -30 cents and the tonal qualities have improved. The variables that effect the body resonance are sound hole size, body depth, body size, arching of the top and back, tapering the sides, bracing and overall lightness of construction. Like deflection testing, you need to measure and keep records of what you build to really learn anything.

Brad

I just checked my notes, most of my concert size ukes are around Bflat3. A larger body will have a lower resonance.

Brad

Phew! Thanks, Brad. All that's left to do is the nitro and the bridge, so we'll soon see how it all pans out.

Sorry for the mini hijack - now back to the OP's topic.

Maybe you should consider a smaller soundhole. It's not that I know everything about Helmholz resonance, but smaller holes has been right for me. (insert jokes here) I find they emphasize what bass there is.

Sven said:

Maybe you should consider a smaller soundhole. It's not that I know everything about Helmholz resonance, but smaller holes has been right for me. (insert jokes here) I find they emphasize what bass there is.

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Sometimes a smaller single hole won't be enough, but you can make use of a second hole nearby to share in the total body response. (you asked )

What can I say??....soundboard .0625"..back and sides .075" all Mahogany (I use African Utile or Sipo)..mahogany neck and tail blocks..Spruce braces.. small triangular kerfed lininings 4mm X 6mm..fret board rosewood, or ebony for more sustain..keep the bridge and saddle low ..saddle width 1/16" nut and saddle ebony...solid dovetail neck joint (no shims)...BWBWB rosette inlaid 75% deep into the top (maybe this affects tone I like to believe it does)...5 ft X 10 ft radiused ached back and French polish finish with shellac pore filler..it all adds up "seems to work for me" some of the time

I am not a Luthier , but I do play one on TV . Just kidding , but I do read alot on this site about building and thought " why not try Hot Hide Glue " . Maybe that would make the difference.

Thanks for the replies, so far. It's been edifying. I'll pass the information along to my friend. Re: tapping, I don't have an iphone...perhaps there is another way to test the resonance? Re: glue, I'd like to try hide glue, especially given the posts I read in another recent thread on the forum; I know that my friend has used it in the past. We've finished our ukuleles differently: some with sawdust and shellac pore filling and Tru-oil, some with Z-poxy and water-based spray (I can't recall the name of the product from LMI)... they all sound just about the same in regard to the bass and treble levels.

In "Ken Timms Loses His Mind" I learned that luthiers obsess, and I may just be crossing that threshold. I'm the only one who has heard these ukuleles who has an issue, it seems. Last night, I compared the mahogany soprano I've kept and played (a lot) over the past 6 months with my 1960s Martin O; they sound quite similar. It's my 1920s Martin Style 1 that kills everything else around. Maybe that's an unfair comparison, nevertheless, it has become a benchmark for me...something to strive for.

I haven't weighed the ukuleles (don't have the apparatus), but the one I made feels a bit lighter than either of the Martins. When strummed open, the A strings rings like nobody's business; on the 1920s Martins, it's the C string that rings longest.

Short fingerboard or extended? In other words, like the lower numbered Martins or like 3s and up?

The guy who helped me get started making ukes, "Ukulele Dick" McKee, swears that the lower styles are the real players' ukes because of the larger vibrating top area. That's what pushed me over the top to apply my cantilevered fingerboard design that I was already using on guitars to uke designs. It works for me.

And yes to sanding around the edges, trying a smaller sound hole (which you can simulate by sliding a piece of cardboard slowly covering more and more of the current hole as you play and listen to the Helmholz resonance change), and perhaps thinning the center of the top a bit more to bring out the monopole response. That's an Ervin Somogyi trick.

Oh...an ebony bridge rather than rosewood will favor low end because of the increased weight.

Rick Turner said:

Short fingerboard or extended? In other words, like the lower numbered Martins or like 3s and up?

The guy who helped me get started making ukes, "Ukulele Dick" McKee, swears that the lower styles are the real players' ukes because of the larger vibrating top area. That's what pushed me over the top to apply my cantilevered fingerboard design that I was already using on guitars to uke designs. It works for me.

And yes to sanding around the edges, trying a smaller sound hole (which you can simulate by sliding a piece of cardboard slowly covering more and more of the current hole as you play and listen to the Helmholz resonance change), and perhaps thinning the center of the top a bit more to bring out the monopole response. That's an Ervin Somogyi trick.

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We've made both short and extended fingerboards. Volume is impacted, although only moderately, by the extended fingerboard, the relative response at the high and low ends is not.

I own both kinds (extended fingerboards and short) of Martins and have played many others of both. I would have to agree with Mr. McKee, particularly when it comes to the older ones. My Style O is later and while it sounds and plays great, my 1920s Style 1 is a monster, which has gotten me on this train. I believe the top and back of the later soprano are a bit thicker. Style 3s (I haven't played a Style 5) sound fantastic and play like a dream, but the Style 1 is electrifying. The entire instrument comes alive when played; everything top, back, and sides vibrate. I swear I can even feel the vibrations in the neck. Some of the other lower models I've played have been as good, others have not. The only Martin duds I've played have been Mexican made and reissues. They were actually okay, to be fair, just not nearly as good as the old ones.

Thanks for the tip about altering the sound hole, Rick. And, thanks Sven for bringing it up...definitely something I can try easily.

Rick Turner said:

Oh...an ebony bridge rather than rosewood will favor low end because of the increased weight.

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Hmmm...we've been using mahogany for the bridge, probably even lighter than rosewood. What about the nut and saddle...do you think switching from bone to ebony would favor the lower end?

Bear in mind that there are inevitable trade-offs. You may increase bass response but lose a bit of quickness and volume. Both ebony and rosewood seem to work well on our Compass Rose ukes, and they are noted for good low end response...sometimes as a criticism for the ukes being too-guitar like in tone. But that was the whole design goal for me. You can test the mass theory by putting a very small C clamp on the bridge somehow or temporarily gluing on a weight.