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View Full Version : Performax/Jet 10- 20 Design Problem



Timbuck
01-27-2012, 12:42 AM
Pete Sent me the drum support arm from his Jet 10-20 drum sander..He wanted me to see if I could fix it for him..The thread on the lifting screw had stripped causing the sander height adjustment to fail..It wasn't the thread on the steel leadscrew that had stripped but the female thread in the extruded aluminium arm ..I thought of a few ways of fixing it but couldn't decide which to go for..so this morning I went into the shed to take some measurments from off my Jet 10-20, I wound down the adjusting screw to the bottom setting, then started to wind it back up again :( but nothing happened the handle turned the screw shaft turned...then I realised what had happened :mad: THE HOWLETT CURSE had come to visit me..Mine had stripped as well...A quick search around the Web proved that this is a common fault with the 10-20 and I found about six owners in 5 minutes of searching who had the same problem...."Now I have two machines to fix"....I think that the problem is that the extruded aluminium material is not thick enough at 15mm or strong enough or suitable to lift the weight of the roller assembly and motor combined...In this thread I'll attempt to show you how I went about the fix.....

EDIT Due to Photobucket for removing all my pics and asking for a ransome to restore them ..I have made a video of the repair and it can be seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsmnY8dCODA

Sven
01-27-2012, 12:55 AM
Errr... now you've gone and made me pretty nervous. Are you gonna drill it out and fit a steel collar thingie with a sturdier thread?

Timbuck
01-27-2012, 01:50 AM
Errr... now you've gone and made me pretty nervous. Are you gonna drill it out and fit a steel collar thingie with a sturdier thread?

I'm gonna be more drastic than that..I'm thinking of chopping that bit right off :uhoh: Don't worry tho' Sven i've ordered enough material to fix your's as well when it fails on you later this year :D

Pete Howlett
01-27-2012, 04:03 AM
Phew! I thought it was me being careless...

Timbuck
01-27-2012, 04:36 AM
I noticed that on Petes spindle that there was no sign of lubrication, so I thought at first that was what caused it...but mine is covered in grease from the first day I received it, and it still stripped just the same :confused:...anyway when i've done my mod it should fix it for good. (Fingers crossed):)

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
01-27-2012, 07:32 AM
I wonder if this is a problem with the 16/32 as well. My screw has developed quite a bit of slop in it. Perhaps a sign of impending failure? Then again, I've never thought of lubricating it!

Timbuck
01-27-2012, 08:23 AM
I wonder if this is a problem with the 16/32 as well. My screw has developed quite a bit of slop in it. Perhaps a sign of impending failure? Then again, I've never thought of lubricating it!
Remember that the whole weight of the motor and roller assembly hang from that single point ...just the threads that is...sometimes when they go, is during sanding operation and the spinning drum and motor just drop onto the conveyor belt/workpiece and gouge out a drum size hollow bit.:eek:.."Chuck" the relacement part on the 16-32 dosn't look as expensive as the 10-20 it can be found here on page C http://www.ereplacementparts.com/jet-1632-plus-629004k-sander-parts-c-32652_32661_32864.html ..item 37 $64..90

agilitydog
01-27-2012, 08:46 AM
Prophylaxis for my used, but not yet broken 10-20? Thanks ahead of time.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
01-27-2012, 08:51 AM
Remember that the whole weight of the motor and roller assembly hang from that single point ...just the threads that is...sometimes when they go, is during sanding operation and the spinning drum and motor just drop onto the conveyor belt/workpiece and gouge out a drum size hollow bit.:eek:.."Chuck" the relacement part on the 16-32 dosn't look as expensive as the 10-20 it can be found here on page C http://www.ereplacementparts.com/jet-1632-plus-629004k-sander-parts-c-32652_32661_32864.html ..item 37 $64..90

Good Link! I've looked all over for replacement parts for the Performax without any luck. For me it's the "spiders" that keep wearing out. That's a valuable site to bookmark. Thank you Ken.

EDIT: I've just ordered the part (as well as some spare spiders) expecting impending disaster. Why would they use aluminum for this critical part?

Steve Combs
01-27-2012, 09:30 AM
Wow, I just got mine a week ago, & have sanded exactly one fingerboard. I didn't find any mention of this problem in researching the purchase. Guess I'd better spend more time researching next time. I'll be eagerly following this thread.

Steve

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
01-27-2012, 09:40 AM
Wow, I just got mine a week ago, & have sanded exactly one fingerboard. I didn't find any mention of this problem in researching the purchase. Guess I'd better spend more time researching next time. I'll be eagerly following this thread.

Steve

I've built a few hundred ukes with my 16/32 and use it every day. And I work it hard! Despite a couple of flaws, it's still the best small drum sander made IMO. I've been through a few spiders though, primarily because I let the motor couplers get loose. Although I don't do it I think it's a good idea to periodically tighten the fasteners and lube the moving parts. I can't speak for to 10/20 though.

tjomball
01-27-2012, 10:34 AM
As far as I see it should be possible to find a Helicoil thread insert in that size.
But what may or may not be a concern is how much material has to be removed in order to fit the thread insert.
From my recollection from previous repairs using Helicoil you should be able to fit an insert safely.
Provioded they make them in the correct size and pitch ofcourse..

Michael Smith
01-27-2012, 10:38 AM
Maybe get a skilled welder to fill it up, make the area a little taller for strength then retap?

Pete Howlett
01-27-2012, 11:09 AM
Ken is on it folks asnd you can bet it will be an appriopriate fix... the problem is the combination of fine thread on a steel bar going into a heavy aluminium lump; recipe for disaster!

Timbuck
01-27-2012, 11:13 AM
As far as I see it should be possible to find a Helicoil thread insert in that size.
But what may or may not be a concern is how much material has to be removed in order to fit the thread insert.
From my recollection from previous repairs using Helicoil you should be able to fit an insert safely.
Provioded they make them in the correct size and pitch ofcourse.. Most repairs to this problem on 10-20's have been done by Helicoil 9/16" UNF inserts..I have used Helicoil's many times on stripped threads like on car engine cylinder heads and manifolds etc: where permanent fixing is required.. but this is a leadscrew and nut arrangement, where a non friction surface is ideal (like on a lathe saddle nut).. Most Helicoil jobs offered by small engineering shops are done with standard steel inserts...this will cause more friction problems later on, co's steel on steel is a no no in this sort of job........ If you search around you can get "Phosphor bronze Helicoil inserts" that should do the job a bit better.. but really the length of the nut is one of the problems..for this job i'd like to see a nut length of 2D minimum made of bronze or pure iron, a Buttress or Acme thread would be a bonus, but thats out of the price range, co's it would involve making a new spindle.

ukebuilder
01-27-2012, 12:36 PM
Looking at buying one and was wanting to know from the guys that have them, what is the better size to go with, 10-20 or the 16-32. Its only a couple hundred buck different. I just don't want to get the little one and then need a bigger one. I would only really use it for making instruments. Sorry if I am high jacking your thread, just felt this was a good place to ask. I have a large home made one but would like a more portable one to give me more room and floor space. Thanks in advance.

Liam Ryan
01-27-2012, 01:09 PM
You've got me worried now Ken. I'm headed out to the shed to check on my 10-20.

Timbuck
01-30-2012, 03:00 AM
Some material arrived this morning so I made a start on the job.....I decided to fix my machine first and troubleshoot any problems that may occur before I send Petes parts back to him..You can most likely work out how i'm going to do this from these pic's....The main chunk of material is some 1 1/2" x 1" aluminium bar.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0001-15.jpg
I cut this up into 3 lengths 1 for Pete 1 for me and a spare in case of cock-up's.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0005-7.jpg
This a drawing I made of my proposed repair part.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0009-7.jpg
Next Marking out for Machining
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0014-4.jpg
MORE TO FOLLOW

Pete Howlett
01-30-2012, 03:12 AM
I haven't got the links Ken...

Timbuck
01-30-2012, 03:22 AM
Fixed it i think :) The next operation is on the lathe boring out an accurate 3/4" dia hole.
First centre drill
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0017-4.jpg
Next drilling
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0027-8.jpg
And finaly reaming out to size
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0030-2.jpg

MORE TO FOLLOW

Timbuck
01-30-2012, 08:41 AM
Next over to the Pedestal drill to complete machining on this part.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0033-3.jpg
And after a little fettling here's the completed part.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0039-4.jpg

Timbuck
02-01-2012, 06:17 AM
I ran into a problem with this job...I made a cast iron threaded bush i tapped it out in the lathe at 9/16 UNF 18 TPI but the spindle was a loose fit when I screwed it in with about 10 thou slop ....not good enough for this project..I searched the web and looked at all the thread form charts on the planet..but the only standard thread sizes close to this spindle were 1/4 NPS and 9/16 UNF..NPS was slightly too small and UNF too large..So the only conclusion that I could come to was that this spindle was undersize and Pete and I got some from a bad batch in our machines..and thats what most likely caused the problem in the first place.
So i fixed the problem by slitting the bush with the saw and adding a couple of adjusting screws to squeeze it in a bit.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0012-6.jpg
Next job was to saw off the stripped lug.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0019-5.jpg
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0022-4.jpg

Timbuck
02-01-2012, 07:57 AM
Next i did a trial fit on the sander..I fitted the new bit first complete with spindle...it fitted together very easily (note magnet to keep all the screws from getting lost during assembly)
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0025-1.jpg

Then I added the (now lugless) arm and bolted it in place with some longer 1/4" UNC screws through the top two holes of the motor mount slide into the arm..then I wound the rise and fall handle up and down a few times and it worked fine...nice and smooth just like it should...But when i wound it to the top it would not go all the way, due to a foul up with a lug sticking out on the top beam, that I had overlooked.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0028-1.jpg
No big problem I just machined a bit off and tried it again.
And thats about it, up and running again, it should last for years and years..I'll start on Petes parts now that I know whats what..only i'll make his a slightly diferent way, due the the thread size problem.
And i'll profile the new bit so it blends in better with the design.
here is a view from the rear of the sander
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0035-5.jpg
And finally a pic of the finished job
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0038.jpg

Allen
02-01-2012, 08:56 AM
Great documentation of the fix Ken.

I've got one of these too, and like most others ran out to check if mine was going to fail on me any time soon. Couldn't see any problem at all, so as you said, it's probably a batch of mismatched parts that caused the problem in some machines.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
02-01-2012, 09:22 AM
That's an amazing repair Ken. I'm glad the replacement part for my 16/32 is cheap enough to just replace it. Mine has developed almost 1/4 turn of slop in the screw. You might be finding a lot of 10/20s showing up on your doorstep!

Pete Howlett
02-01-2012, 10:26 AM
We kneel in awe :)

:cheers::worship::rock:

Liam Ryan
02-01-2012, 12:39 PM
Looks about 100,000,000 times stronger and better than the original. I'll be taking this thread down to the machine shop if my 10/20 ever fails. Thanks Ken.

ukebuilder
02-01-2012, 01:59 PM
I have to say this will come in handy if the one I get fails. Thanks for your work and you will be the first I ask if i have a failure.

Kekani
02-01-2012, 07:07 PM
We kneel in awe :)

:cheers::worship::rock:

+1

Time to clean & lube my 16/32. . .

Flyfish57
02-01-2012, 07:29 PM
+1

Time to clean & lube my 16/32. . .

+2
Wait, we're supposed to clean and lube them? I’m afraid if I clean my 16/32 it’ll fall apart! Similar to when I change the transmission fluid in my car...

Pete Howlett
02-02-2012, 03:47 AM
Interesting diversion for those who read it. Am champing at the bit now Ken has solved the problem. Good job production work has been on hold this week :)

Timbuck
02-02-2012, 05:31 AM
Has something been going on while i've been busy in the shed???????
Anyway..GOOD news.

PETES JOB IS DONE
It will be in the post tomorrow :cheers: and it's a posher job than mine. (I put the micrometer in the picture to look more technical):o
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0003-19.jpg

Petes new bit looked better than mine, so I modified mine as well to match his...this is what it looks like now.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0014-5.jpg

Flyfish57
02-02-2012, 05:40 AM
Nice work Ken…As usual!

Timbuck
02-02-2012, 06:08 AM
I believe undersized spindles is the problem.. co's half the thread is still there..I put the 9/16 UNF tap down what was left of the lug just by hand (No tap wrench) and it hardly removed any material and fitted the outer diameter of the thread nicely...so if you ever have to get a new arm supplied under warranty make sure you get a new good fitting spindle with it.. co's if you use the old one it will just strip again :(

Pete Howlett
02-02-2012, 06:28 AM
ou are an absolute treasue. I'll sort out some koa soprano sets for you...

Sven
02-02-2012, 08:57 AM
I thought Jet was a Swiss brand. And that they'd use mm threads. But I'm rubbish at these codes, maybe UNF is European. An Italian motorbike I once had used, and this is rather close to the truth, a different thread on each fecking screw. Made me bonkers. But I still miss that bike.

Timbuck
02-04-2012, 09:45 AM
I thought Jet was a Swiss brand. And that they'd use mm threads. But I'm rubbish at these codes, maybe UNF is European. An Italian motorbike I once had used, and this is rather close to the truth, a different thread on each fecking screw. Made me bonkers. But I still miss that bike.
Svens Bike folks. :rolleyes:
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/svenbike.jpg

agilitydog
02-04-2012, 11:03 AM
How many other places have resources so freely shared, so professionally thorough, so accepting of beginners, so welcoming of professional difference? Thank you, Ken, as a prime representative of the larger group that I also thank.

mzuch
02-04-2012, 05:06 PM
How many other places have resources so freely shared, so professionally thorough, so accepting of beginners, so welcoming of professional difference? Thank you, Ken, as a prime representative of the larger group that I also thank.

Well said. +1.

Pete Howlett
02-05-2012, 11:46 PM
Fitted and working perfectly :)

Rick Turner
02-06-2012, 05:05 AM
Jet is hardly Swiss. First Taiwanese, now mainland China factories. No way of knowing exactly what factory...these things change like the weather. Better quality than a lot, not as good as some.

Timbuck
03-01-2013, 03:58 AM
I've bumped this thread again due to another 10-20 failure this time in Australia...same thing stripped thread due to "undersize spindle"....it measures
.547" o/d when it should read .5625".

Also it looks like these machines can get nasty it you are not careful read this :( http://www.woodworkforums.com/f67/incident-jet-drum-sander-gore-warning-116562/

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0029-5_zps8e665d39.jpg

ukegirl13
03-01-2013, 05:48 AM
Yes, I bow down to you Ken. You are the Master. I too have the 10/20 and was a little hesitant on the purchase of it because a lot of reviewers were saying the table keeps veering to the left. Silly me went ahead and bought it anyways because of its size and lo and behold, it veered to the left. :( With a lot of cursing and messing around with it the table has finally settled in and I have been using it for a while now with no problems. I am sorry to see there may be more problems on the horizon though. Thanks again for your amazing documentation!!

Wildestcat
03-01-2013, 06:12 AM
I've bumped this thread again due to another 10-20 failure this time in Australia...same thing stripped thread due to "undersize spindle"....it measures
.547" o/d when it should read .5625".

Uh-oh .... mine clocks in at 0.5465". Looks like I can expect a failure! :(

agilitydog
03-01-2013, 06:18 AM
So is the time when Ken releases his Jet 10-20 retrofit kit. Put me on the list to purchase. We can all be paying Beta testers for the Performax 10-20 Timms Upgrade which he sells to Jet (wherever they are)

Liam Ryan
03-01-2013, 08:38 AM
Mine's 0.54

Timbuck
03-01-2013, 09:04 AM
I'm just assuming it is supposed to be 9/16" UNF... I have no definite info to say otherwise...the smaller thread at the top is 7/16" UNF and there are a few 10-20's on the web with stripped threads, and this is the 3rd repair job i've had to do....So I rest my case :)

*EDIT* further to this this is a link to a Dulcimer site where this guy has repaired the fault with "Helicoil inserts" more than once and still the problem occurs at a later date..like wot i said it would:rolleyes: earlier in this thread.
http://www.everythingdulcimer.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24478

Koa Soprano
03-01-2013, 01:44 PM
Also it looks like these machines can get nasty it you are not careful read this :( http://www.woodworkforums.com/f67/incident-jet-drum-sander-gore-warning-116562/


Not careful?? The guy stuck his hand underneath the drumhead while it was running.....

Rick Turner
03-01-2013, 03:08 PM
Seems like careful use of TriFlo would be a good idea on threads like that. Also, Ken, is it steel and steel or is the female thread bronze or some other such logical material? There are good reasons to use two different metals with adjusting threads.

Timbuck
03-01-2013, 08:00 PM
Seems like careful use of TriFlo would be a good idea on threads like that. Also, Ken, is it steel and steel or is the female thread bronze or some other such logical material? There are good reasons to use two different metals with adjusting threads.
I believe it's cadmium plated steel male..going into extruded aluminium female...I replace the aluminium with cast iron...I could use phospher bronze but thats more expensive and harder to machine :)

Another factor is the thickness of the aluminium nut/lug material it's only about 9/16" thick (1 X D)not good :(... My replacement cast iron nut is 1 1/2" long almost (3 X D)

Rick Turner
03-01-2013, 09:31 PM
Jeez, cad plated steel to aluminum is about as bad a match as you could imagine. Gall city... Aluminum in general for adjustment threads is just a bad idea in and of itself for anything that's going to get the kind of use and vibration that a sander will get. Aluminium (there, spelt it right) is wonderful stuff...in its place, but... HeliCoils are great, but not for any thread that's going to be constantly used with that kind of stress. Yeah, iron or bronze...the way to go...

Rick Turner
03-01-2013, 09:33 PM
Makes me wish I still had a nice lathe here... I might have to start looking.

Piedmont Uke
03-02-2013, 01:50 AM
So I'm assuming that the 16/32 Jet uses the same material for adjusting? I'm wondering ,if they know that this problem exists, why they don't fix it! Price point? Cheaper to fix the warranty repairs that might be few in the first year than to retool? I guess this is the world we live in.:(

taylordb
03-02-2013, 03:00 AM
I have not read through the whole thread, but has anyone contacted the manufacturer and told (the appropriate person) them of the issue and at the same time shown them this solution?

saltytri
03-02-2013, 03:28 AM
Can't say enough about Nano-Oil. I've used it on close fitting fine threads in stainless to stainless, ti to ti and aluminum to aluminum, all of which can be a quick road to very permanent cold welding. It's on the threads on my 16-32 and it turns very nicely.

http://nano-oil.com/index.html

It's not cheap but neither was you 16-32, eh?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that a fancy oil will cure the ills of badly sized or machined threads. I don't have that problem with my 16-32, as it is an older "made in USA" version and the threads are just fine. They do turn better with the Nano-oil than whatever was on them before.

Chris_H
03-02-2013, 04:19 AM
I believe it's cadmium plated steel male..going into extruded aluminium female...I replace the aluminium with cast iron...I could use phospher bronze but thats more expensive and harder to machine :)

Another factor is the thickness of the aluminium nut/lug material it's only about 9/16" thick (1 X D)not good :(... My replacement cast iron nut is 1 1/2" long almost (3 X D)

Cadmium plating is more old school. Yellow Zinc is more likely. Cadmium is poisonous, and will give it up through the plating.

Timbuck
03-02-2013, 05:45 AM
Cadmium plating is more old school. Yellow Zinc is more likely. Cadmium is poisonous, and will give it up through the plating.
I've had a closer look ..I think it's stainless steel :)
Anyway the job is done..I managed to machine the cast iron bush to fit the thread this time..I didn't tap it out I cut the internal thread in the lathe...Now it will last until the 10-20 dies of old age.:cheers: I'll post it off to the land of Emu's, first thing Monday

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0034-2_zps75e2d9f1.jpg

ukeonthebeach
03-02-2013, 06:49 AM
Wow. I was just about to pull the trigger on one of these while they are on sale... Hmmm. Maybe I should rethink?

Timbuck
01-01-2015, 03:14 AM
Another one broke down:( ...same problem ...This time in the USA ...Repairs are now underway :) Thats about 8 I've fixed so far.

Sven
01-01-2015, 04:11 AM
Ooh, now you got me all nervous again. Do you need the screw to make the spare part?

Timbuck
01-01-2015, 05:10 AM
Ooh, now you got me all nervous again. Do you need the screw to make the spare part?
These undersized screwed spindles seem to vary quite a bit Sven....So I prefer to machine a new cast iron nut to suit each spindle.

dmecha1012
01-02-2015, 02:48 AM
Ken,

Would this problem present itself even to those of us in the "low usage" realm? (3 to 4 hours per month) Or is it just on 10-20's with high volume?

Michael Smith
01-02-2015, 10:47 AM
Keep that threaded rod greased and it will be far less likely to fail under normal usage.

Timbuck
01-02-2015, 11:35 AM
Keep that threaded rod greased and it will be far less likely to fail under normal usage.Mine was well lubricated :confused: but way undersized.

Timbuck
11-03-2015, 03:42 AM
Another one broke down same fault , this time in Japan ...Another repair kit one the way.
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/shiregreenbod/PICT0036_zpsh5e29ftd.jpg (http://s219.photobucket.com/user/shiregreenbod/media/PICT0036_zpsh5e29ftd.jpg.html)

Timbuck
05-01-2017, 11:48 PM
After several repairs on these I have come to the final conclusion that the spindles are a unique thread size approx: .547" DIA X 18 TPI UNF ... to have a special Tap made to this size I think would be very costly....and the best way to make the nut, is to machine the thread in the lathe to suit the spindle.