PDA

View Full Version : Doping in Cycling... UCI f..ks up AGAIN.. :(



tjomball
02-06-2012, 12:37 AM
It seems that mr Juan Pelota AKA Lance Armstrong has been aquitted of the doping charges against him.
This to me stinks of something unmentionable.
Here's a 7 time Tour De France winner that has systematically doped himself and cheated others of well deserved glory and credit.
This would not have happened to a lesser known cyclist.
This is proof that the governing body of the sport I love and hold so dearly is truly corrupt. Appearently they misplace and store their samples in a way that insures they will be destroyed.
Appearently big money has an effect on the ruling body of my chosen sport.
His frakking former team mates have testified as to the fact that hey systematically doped themselves. This in a court of law.

Strip the little s..t of all his titles since 1993. The last time he was proved to be clean.

UCI has made partial amends by banning Alberto Contador for two years. But still. Too little too late.

Just my two cents on this subject.

gobes
02-06-2012, 12:09 PM
While I agree with the sentiment of your post, and I'm no fan of the UCI, it wasn't the UCI that quit in this case. It was a federal investigation concerning systematic doping, money laundering and fraud. It would appear that Mr. Pelota has friends in the right places and has made the appropriate charitable donations for the investigation to end.

Thankfully, Bert got the two years that he deserved... err, make that 6 months.

arpie
02-06-2012, 12:39 PM
I can feel your anger. Personally, I find it hard to believe that most top level sports people AREN'T on something most of the time! It is the only way they can maintain that level of competition so consistently without injury. I do not condone any form of cheating. Many are only 'outed' at the end of their careers or after.

Having said that - it is a huge shame that any athlete feels the need to cheat in any sport - it is not fair on the non-cheaters - all cheaters should be banned for life & stripped of all titles or placings in any race they've entered. Seems even the snooker players take beta blockers to stop their hands 'shaking' on the important shots!

My husband is a triathlete & he sees cheating/drafting on the bike section all the time. They even made drafting 'legal' for the Pro Races but it is 'illegal' in most other races tho 'packs' of riders regularly collude to have a faster ride. If it is good enough for the PROs then it should be good enough for all. ie It should be illegal in ALL races - or ....... allowed in ALL races.

RP

tjomball
02-06-2012, 11:36 PM
My bad re. mr. One ball.
But still it reeks of high heaven of something questionable.

Re "****ador". He didn't get what he deserves.

And for the record I'm a former mountainbike racer myself.
Downhill, Cross Country and Duel.
We have our own doping issues in Cross Country.
But in the technical disciplines ie. DH, 4X and the more technical disciplines I can't recall any doping issues.
But I can't say for certain.
But my gut instincts tells me that in a discipline where the riders can win a race hungover/slightly drunk(Down Hill) there's no doping.
Only skill and b.lls.
Besides Downhillers are a different breed altogether. ;)
We can't really be compared to the endurance disciplines.

chris667
02-09-2012, 09:31 PM
I can't watch cycling anymore, even though I love it. When money gets into any sport it ruins it eventually.

I don't know if you've ever read "Rough Ride" by Paul Kimmage, a pro cyclist in the 1980s. Very unsettling stuff.

Peterjna
02-11-2012, 11:13 AM
Whats is he accused of taking? Steroids, hgh?

Pippin
09-02-2012, 09:32 AM
Whats is he accused of taking? Steroids, hgh?

EPO, a performance enhancing drug... and blood transfusions.

The biggest problem I have with the accusations is that there are over 500 tests on record as having Lance noted as clean. The people who accuse him have all had to play second-fiddle to Lance through a lengthy career.

NOW, I'd like to point out that Lance only participated in a few races each season-- all but one were used as conditioning rides for one main objective... the Tour de France. His contract was only that he race the Tour... anything else was strictly up to him. What's more, instead of taking it easy in the off-season, Lance kept conditioning and also competed in mountain-bike racing.

I also want to point out that the other racers in the field raced many more times per season and recovery was sometimes incomplete, but, that is not Lance's fault.

Until there is IRON-CLAD evidence of doping, via the testing program as approved by the UCI, I say, innocent until PROVEN guilty. One other thing here, USADA has NO AUTHORITY outside the United States and has no right to take away Lance's Tour victories or anyone elses from European events, for that matter. They are the governing body in the USA.

I'd never trust testimony of the domestique or any rider whose job was to help bring Lance to victory. That had to be difficult considering any of those guys might have been a champion in his own right had he not played second-fiddle to Lance.

Think about it. Perhaps the best solution is make this an individual sport, not a team sport.

Freeda
09-02-2012, 09:38 AM
The only thing I have a problem with is federal level investigations into sports issues. Sports should manage themselves, and the government should do government stuff.

Pippin
09-02-2012, 09:45 AM
The only thing I have a problem with is federal level investigations into sports issues. Sports should manage themselves, and the government should do government stuff.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

Teek
09-02-2012, 09:51 AM
EPO, a performance enhancing drug... and blood transfusions.

The biggest problem I have with the accusations is that there are over 500 tests on record as having Lance noted as clean. The people who accuse him have all had to play second-fiddle to Lance through a lengthy career.

NOW, I'd like to point out that Lance only participated in a few races each season-- all but one were used as conditioning rides for one main objective... the Tour de France. His contract was only that he race the Tour... anything else was strictly up to him. What's more, instead of taking it easy in the off-season, Lance kept conditioning and also competed in mountain-bike racing.

I also want to point out that the other racers in the field raced many more times per season and recovery was sometimes incomplete, but, that is not Lance's fault.

Until there is IRON-CLAD evidence of doping, via the testing program as approved by the UCI, I say, innocent until PROVEN guilty. One other thing here, USADA has NO AUTHORITY outside the United States and has no right to take away Lance's Tour victories or anyone elses from European events, for that matter. They are the governing body in the USA.

I'd never trust testimony of the domestique or any rider whose job was to help bring Lance to victory. That had to be difficult considering any of those guys might have been a champion in his own right had he not played second-fiddle to Lance.

Think about it. Perhaps the best solution is make this an individual sport, not a team sport.

+1. Smells of jealousy and collusion by resentful "team" members to me. Where are all the negative samples then? He has always tested clean except for tiny amounts of cortisone from a rash cream that I use myself. They still have samples from way back. The head of the USADA comes across as an asinine frothing at the mouth bipolar whack job with some kind of a personal axe to grind, just like Landis with all his egocentric resentments.

Freeda
09-02-2012, 10:16 AM
+1. Smells of jealousy and collusion by resentful "team" members to me. Where are all the negative samples then? He has always tested clean except for tiny amounts of cortisone from a rash cream that I use myself. They still have samples from way back. The head of the USADA comes across as an asinine frothing at the mouth bipolar whack job with some kind of a personal axe to grind, just like Landis with all his egocentric resentments.
Could we please not use bipolar as an insult? I'm bipolar, but I'm not nuts, and it does hurt my feelings a little. Thanks for understanding.

stevepetergal
09-02-2012, 10:23 AM
Blah blah blah.... Those at the highest level of sports will always be breaking the rules with drugs. The atheletes want them, the coaches want them, the investors love it, and most of the fans demand it. Doctors and trainers provide the drugs, and the same scientists that come up with the detection tests sell the secrets to getting around the tests. I don't see why anyone should care. Let's move on and talk ukuleles, please.

Freeda
09-02-2012, 10:25 AM
Let's move on and talk ukuleles, please.

Well this IS the sports section. ;)

stevepetergal
09-02-2012, 10:30 AM
Well this IS the sports section. ;)

My bad. But still, everybody demands the atheletes use performance enhancing drugs, and then they gripe about the ones that get caught.

Pippin
09-02-2012, 11:08 AM
My bad. But still, everybody demands the atheletes use performance enhancing drugs, and then they gripe about the ones that get caught.

I don't demand it. To me, it is a shame that they are used at all. If Bernard Hinnault never used drugs and won the tour five times, why can't riders today train and compete without the drugs?

Shazzbot
09-02-2012, 11:23 AM
We live in a society where lying and cheating is okay.
Just don't get caught.
And if you do, deny it.
Money and greed trumps ethics and morals these days.

haolejohn
09-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Notice how us Americans are supporting him (almost all of us that post here have) and our international brothers (gender neutral) aren't...kind of like how this whole thing started.


Every sample he had was positive.

arpie
09-02-2012, 12:48 PM
... make this an individual sport, not a team sport.....

I was discussing this with my husband during the last Tour de France ..... then it would be up to the individuals to 'buddy up' with fellow competitors to 'assist' each other (much as the teams do now .......) and then it's 'all on' for each finish line.

...... If Bernard Hinnault never used drugs and won the tour five times, why can't riders today train and compete without the drugs?........

To b honest, he probably did use something. Whether it was 'illegal' at the time - perhaps not! Check this link out - doping in one form or another has been going on in the Tour de France since the early 1900s - either booze thru to drugs, even strychnine!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France

A list of the more recent winners (with their drug testing history) is at the bottom of the article ......... most winners only won the once or twice - not multiple times - and they had never been tested positive - Lemond & Hinnault being the two multiple winners that DIDN'T test positive. Being such a demanding race, personally, I'd be suspicious of multiple winners who 'hadn't' tested positive. History may show different. There is always more than 1 person involved in cheating - and years later, the truth may come out thru guilt or jealousy.

Another interesting article to read is about Bradley Wiggins' rise to fame. Whilst pledging never to use anyone ever associated with cycling, let alone drug taking on his medical team (backup/medical etc .......the team would employ only British doctors who had never worked in cycling before......) it seems a strange decision to take on Geert Leinders who was a member of the medical staff at Rabobank - where systematic doping had occurred ...... and now he is on Wiggins' team?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2177405/Bradley-Wiggins-battle-cyclings-drug-demons--Paul-Kimmage.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Hopefully many compete clean. Unfortunately, most appear not to.

RP

Pippin
09-02-2012, 09:50 PM
Phil Liggett made a few really good points about doping and EPO in particular, One of the things that Phil said was that the use of "performance enhancing drugs" will nto turn a sow's ear into a velvet purse. You can't turn a poor rider into a champion with the use of EPO. If everyone IS USING some sort of performance enhancing drug, then, in effect, the riders are all still on equal ground. Personally, I have never liked doping of any kind in any sport, especially cycling. I have loved cycling since I was about eight years old and almost half a century later, I still ride a lot. The Tour de France is the ultimate test of endurance and cheating defeats the purpose.

Barbablanca
09-02-2012, 11:35 PM
As far as I remember, Miguel Indurain was never accused of doping and was a multiple winner. But he may not have needed any artificial stimulants. I read after he retired that tests on his lung capacity had revealed that he not only had a huge lung capacity, but a phenomenal ability to oxygenate his blood. So, natural selection had made him a champ. As my surname is Armstrong, I hope that Lance is being falsely accused, but sadly, I would not be surprised to learn that he wasn't. As others have pointed out on this thread, sports, once corrupted by mega-bucks, lose all credibility in the "open and honest" category.

Pippin
09-03-2012, 04:56 AM
As far as I remember, Miguel Indurain was never accused of doping and was a multiple winner.

He was one of four riders to win five times.

tjomball
11-06-2012, 03:57 AM
+1. Smells of jealousy and collusion by resentful "team" members to me. Where are all the negative samples then? He has always tested clean except for tiny amounts of cortisone from a rash cream that I use myself. They still have samples from way back. The head of the USADA comes across as an asinine frothing at the mouth bipolar whack job with some kind of a personal axe to grind, just like Landis with all his egocentric resentments.

Pardon me but as someone with Bipolar Disorder type 1 I'm curious.
How exactly does he come across as a "bipolar whack job"?

tjomball
11-06-2012, 04:02 AM
And regarding EPO.
I have a friend who was prescribed EPO by his doctor for genuine medical reasons.
He reported a roughly 2 maybe 3% increase in stamina.
But for a pro athlete those two percents matter.
It's not much. But it can tip the scale..

tjomball
11-06-2012, 04:14 AM
And for the record. I know pro athletes that have used EPO with the governing bodies permission.
Done through Anti Doping Norway as research into ways to find EPO.
And research into it's capabilities.


As for the rep of my chosen sport.
It's still shoddy.
But it's getting there.
And every cheater caught is a cheater gone..
And good riddance..

But putting the blame on us as fans is wrong.
We're not twisting their arms. They choose to dope themselves..
I agree the desire for better achievements is stressfull.
But if you can't handle the competition without doping you don't belong in your sport.

I've been offered various performing enhancing substances myself.
But I CHOSE to stay clean and compete on equal grounds..
It was MY CHOICE as an athlete, to compete honorably.
Wthout cheating other hard working athletes from their rightly earned results..
As an athlete you have a responsibility. You're a rolemodel once you turn pro.
And as such, you have a certain set of values to uphold.

kalmario
11-06-2012, 07:26 AM
Re: if everyone is doing it, it's fair argument, in 'Faust's gold' some East Germans, got massive benefits, some didn't. So unless you are a good responder tough luck.

Getting oxygenated blood increases with epo makes a massive difference. Not just with competing, but with training too. It's roughly the same as doing 8 months of altitude training with out the pain ( or the reduction in quality training that comes with altitude)

Incidentally for those who haven't read usada's report epo injected I V at night was undetectable by morning, and they also injected saline to dilute their heamtocrit levels. Well planned systematic cheating.

My 2 cents

Cheers

Cliff

arpie
11-06-2012, 11:49 AM
An 'opposition' team doctor should check for puncture marks every other day - after all, if HIS team are on it, he would know exactly where to look for the puncture marks even in the most obscure of places - just as the regular drug addicts know where to do it that is less noticeable - between the toes etc. The puncture marks would be numerous & obviously very fresh if products were injected during the race.

Perhaps it IS time to allow the use of performance enhancing drugs in all sports now - then the playing field would be level again & the doses administered & monitored properly, not under the cloak of darkness that currently exists.

I think you would have to be extremely naive to NOT believe that the top athletes in most sports probably DO dope of some sort or another (much as we'd like to think otherwise.)

Re the Tour de France - it is an unusually difficult race that even 'very fit bikers' would find it difficult to complete without 'outside assistance'! It really is beyond the capability of most - maybe they should make it a little shorter to make it more achievable?

The 'team' mentality has really appeared to have turned into a 'pack' mentality - where if you aren't "with 'em" you are "agin 'em" & therefore kicked out if you didn't also do doping.

Make them all race as individuals, I say! No radio assistance back to base. If you puncture a tyre, bad luck! You are out. Only have ambulances on hand for crash victims.

Now THAT would be a race!

tjomball
11-08-2012, 01:28 AM
Make them all race as individuals, I say! No radio assistance back to base. If you puncture a tyre, bad luck! You are out. Only have ambulances on hand for crash victims.

Now THAT would be a race!

They already have that. It's called a mtb race... ;)

Pippin
12-02-2012, 08:29 PM
I'd love to see cycling become a totally clean sport. Will it ever happen? Not likely. When fame and money is as high as the "Tour" can be, there will always be people willing to win at any cost.

Fueco
12-07-2012, 08:02 AM
Honestly, I think the only way to rid sports of doping is to vastly raise the punishment. Here's what I'd propose: lifetime ban and revocation of all winnings and awards for the person caught, two-year ban for EVERYONE on the doper's team, lifetime ban for anyone proven to have abetted the doping. Then we might see results.

I am a cyclist who participates in the end of the sport where there really are no reasons to dope. The closest I get to doping is taking in excess caffeine during races to avoid falling asleep on my bike after 40+ hours on the bike.

arpie
01-17-2013, 03:31 PM
The truth finally comes out! Live on Oprah's OWN TV - interview with Lance Armstrong
http://ownspecial.oprah.com/lancearmstrong.html

Mercury
01-17-2013, 03:35 PM
Corruption is endemic in the world today, symptomatic of institutional failure.

Paul December
01-17-2013, 03:45 PM
Lance is a Saint!
...Patron Saint of Cheaters that is.