out of tune if fretting down to the fingerboard !!!

On my second day with the ukulele, I found out that if my fingers press a bit hard on the strings (so they touch the fingerboard), the string tension increase and the note become out of tune.
This has never been an issue with guitar. For mandolin, the double steel strings are so tough that I can't press them down hard enough to touch the fingerboard unless the frets are low (I own many mandolins ( MAS ), some have tall frets and some have low frets).

But the ukulele strings are nylon and can be pressed down so easily.
It is virtually impossible for me to fret the string lightly to avoid touching the fingerboard. I press the strings the way I normally do with guitar and mandolin.

Are the frets on my ukulele a bit too tall ? I am hoping to have some guidance here. I have tried a few ukulele in local music store and did not remember having this intonation issue at all.

You say it is virtually impossible to fret the string lightly but that is all you really need to do. Good luck.

This is rather a habit of playing guitars and mandolins, my fingers just press down on the strings, moderate to hard fretting, the way I have been doing for so long (20 , 30 years). It's not easy to switch to "light fretting".
Can I file down the frets (and recrown them) so they are lower and minimize this intonation issue ? I have tool to level the frets.

I had that issue on one of my ukes, and adjusting the nut solved it. basically, the action was too high at the nut so the strings went out of tune as I pressed down. I took it to a luthier, and he filed down the nut and adjusted the action.
Good Luck!

First of all, I feel your pain-- I, too, came to ukulele from mandolin (and guitar). Ukes may be vaguely the same size as mandolins, but they are very different beasts and it does require some adjustment in style.

While it's possible that your frets are high enough to cause this problem, I doubt that's the issue. Possible issues, in order of likelihood:

1. Your action is too high, and so the act of pressing the strings is throwing off your intonation. You may be tolerating a much higher action on the uke because fretting is overall much easier than on a mandolin. That's where I would look first.

2. You have old or worn strings which are throwing your intonation off. This is pretty common (nylon strings wear differently than steel strings), although I think you would probably notice this even when you're not fretting.

3. Your uke's intonation is off. I'm not sure what you're playing, but ukuleles can be pretty unforgiving on intonation, given their short scale length. Many less expensive ukes (and some very expensive ones) aren't intonated properly from the get-go. The floating bridges on most mandolins make changing intonation a pretty simple exercise; fixed-bridge instruments require a little more subtlety.

So it may be your frets, but I suspect it's your technique. If you'd take joy in recrowning your frets, I won't stop you; but you'll need to adjust your technique at some point, or I don't know that your uke experience will ever be satisfactory.

There are a lot of adjustments in life. Shooting a gun with a hair trigger apposed to a regular pistol. Driving different cars. Playing a Uke. . . . .

I am very familiar with fretted instruments and look for:
1) straight neck
2) neck angle (a straight ruler laying on the fretboard should also touch the top of the bridge, not below the bridge)
3) intonation at fret#12 (harmonic note and fretted note should be at same pitch), mandolin has no issue with its floating bridge but guitars and ukulele do.
My uke meet all these conditions. I can adjust the nut and saddle actions.

The current action on my uke is pretty low. The A string actually buzzes a bit, I will have to shim up the saddle (or possibly replace it with a new one), and make sure the frets are leveled to ensure the action is still low and there is no buzzes.
I will see what I will get after going thru the setup and also go to the local music store to check on their ukulele there to see if they have the same characteristics (I will no longer label this as an issue). If they don't and mine does, mine has an issue there.

The biggest issue on inexpensive to mid range ukes and guitars both is usually intonation at the first couple of frets, and it's usually sharp because the nut slots weren't cut deep enough. On both uke and guitar it's quite common to find one or more strings off by as much as twenty cents when fretted at the first fret!

It sounds like your uke probably needs a good setup since it is both pulling sharp and buzzing. I.e. if it is already buzzing you probably can't lower the nut slots to solve the problem with it pulling sharp at the first few frets. This may mean that the frets need to be leveled or may simply mean that the nut is high but the bridge saddle is too low.

Also, if you are having intonation problems when pressing hard all up and down the fretboard realize that many (maybe most?) ukuleles do have what I consider inappropriately large frets for a short-scale nylon-stringed instrument. The only uke I've had my hands on that really has appropriate frets is my Kiwaya - all of the others have frets that are closer to "medium" guitar frets - way too tall and wide for uke IMHO. It's not that you can't learn to play with a softer touch - but if mfrs would use the right size frets to begin with it would be much less of an issue.

John

Thanks John for the info. Yes, the nut action is high but not too much higher than fret#1. String height at fret#1 is low. I press very lightly on the string at fret#1 and it makes good contact.
The saddle is too low right now, I will shim it up first and expect the buzz to go away.
What is the size of your "appropriate frets" in you Kiwaya ? I like to use it as a reference in case I want to file down my frets.
I bought this Concert Aria ACU-250, brand new, on my business trip (at 1/3 the Internet list price) and will return home this evening, that's where I have the right tools for the set-up work.
The only part that caught me was the "tall" frets couple with low tension nylon strings (tuned to pitch).

an easy way to tell if your nut is too high at the first fret is to Barr the frst fret and see how hard it is.and check the string angle while fretting...
Good Luck..

kkmm said:

What is the size of your "appropriate frets" in you Kiwaya ? I like to use it as a reference in case I want to file down my frets.
I bought this Concert Aria ACU-250, brand new, on my business trip (at 1/3 the Internet list price) and will return home this evening, that's where I have the right tools for the set-up work.

Click to expand...

I don't know the size but the frets on the Kiwaya are both low and narrow. I don't think I've ever seen frets that small on a guitar. They might be intended for mando or something. If I remember later I'll dig out the DSLR and take a closeup of the Kiwaya and another uke side by side.

I'd be careful about filing frets down any more than might be needed to level them (if they are uneven) unless you also have a crowning file to restore the profile. The frets they use on most ukes these days are so wide relative to the scale length that if you don't get them crowned right your intonation might actually get worse!

John

OldePhart said:

The biggest issue on inexpensive to mid range ukes and guitars both is usually intonation at the first couple of frets, and it's usually sharp because the nut slots weren't cut deep enough. On both uke and guitar it's quite common to find one or more strings off by as much as twenty cents when fretted at the first fret!

It sounds like your uke probably needs a good setup since it is both pulling sharp and buzzing. I.e. if it is already buzzing you probably can't lower the nut slots to solve the problem with it pulling sharp at the first few frets. This may mean that the frets need to be leveled or may simply mean that the nut is high but the bridge saddle is too low.

Also, if you are having intonation problems when pressing hard all up and down the fretboard realize that many (maybe most?) ukuleles do have what I consider inappropriately large frets for a short-scale nylon-stringed instrument. The only uke I've had my hands on that really has appropriate frets is my Kiwaya - all of the others have frets that are closer to "medium" guitar frets - way too tall and wide for uke IMHO. It's not that you can't learn to play with a softer touch - but if mfrs would use the right size frets to begin with it would be much less of an issue.

John

Click to expand...

This is sort-of off-topic, but I am thinking of getting a "better" ukulele. What you said about the Kiwaya frets interests me. Intonation never seems right no matter what on less expensive ukuleles. So in a way, the fretboard is almost more important to me than worrying about getting an ukulele with a solid wood body.

So: what do you know about/think about the Kiwaya Eco Series--the soprano. I can't afford one of their Artist Series ukuleles. And if I were to get one, where could I get one that would give me a good set-up?

Mousie

CountryMouse said:

This is sort-of off-topic, but I am thinking of getting a "better" ukulele. What you said about the Kiwaya frets interests me. Intonation never seems right no matter what on less expensive ukuleles. So in a way, the fretboard is almost more important to me than worrying about getting an ukulele with a solid wood body.

So: what do you know about/think about the Kiwaya Eco Series--the soprano. I can't afford one of their Artist Series ukuleles. And if I were to get one, where could I get one that would give me a good set-up?

Mousie

Click to expand...

My Kiwaya is one of their ultrathin laminates; KSL02 longneck soprano. I bought it from MGM. It's a very good uke. Not quite as loud or sweet as my KoAloha longneck soprano but far, far better than your "typical" laminated uke.

John

I did check nut action and it is low, string gap at fret#1 is similar to string gap at fret#2 when I press on fret 1.
I have done the setup of about 8 to 10 mandolins and I am very familiar with these procedures.
I just got home now and will raise the saddle a little bit using shim, to get rid of the string buzz first.
I will order new saddle to replace the current one which is too now.
The neck angle is really good, a straight ruler laying on the fretboard also touch the top of the bridge.

OldePhart said:

My Kiwaya is one of their ultrathin laminates; KSL02 longneck soprano. I bought it from MGM. It's a very good uke. Not quite as loud or sweet as my KoAloha longneck soprano but far, far better than your "typical" laminated uke.

John

Click to expand...

You know, I've been thinking: I need to spend more time with my Fleas and Flukes. They *always* have perfect intonation. And they have that deeper sound because of the depth of the soundbox. I need to save my $$$ and enjoy what I have.

But thanks for the feedback!

Mousie

Regarding the OP: I have had the same issue, particularly with sopranos. Using a fret file, I ground the frets on my KoAloha down to 1/32" (0.03"), about half the OEM height. I filed the nut slots down afterward, to correct the action, and I lowered the bridge height a bit as well. 0000 steel wool polished the frets to a nice shiny finish after filing them. This little soprano now has much improved playability and none of those sour, sharp notes it used to produce all too easily. That advice to just press more lightly doesn't cut it for me, especially with barre chords.

Not being a luthier, this was a bit risky, if not foolhardy of me. It came out great, however. It took hours and I used a caliper to carefully work down to 1/32 on each fret. I assumed that the OEM KoAloha build insured that the fret levels were consistent from the get-go, and I was correct. YMMV.

Using a fret leveling file is much easier as you will file down all the frets at once, you need to make sure to have two hard/solid referenced bar on both ends of the fret boards to stop the file from going too low. That's always the easy/quick part. The hard part is to crown the frets and repolish them to remove the filing marks.
I had a similar issue with one of my mandolin with tall frets (not tuning to pitch), after tuning to pitch, the string tension is so high that my fingers cannot press the strings all the way down, so there is no out of tune notes here.

ISSUE FIXED NOW:
I finally have a day off to set up my ukulele (Aria ACU-250, all soid mahogamy), I do fret leveling slightly (all frets are near OK to start with). smoothen both ends of each fret so my finger can run smooth along the edge of the fretboard. Then I make a compensated saddle from hard plastic to get good intonation at fret #12. The original saddle is flat and not compensated causing intonation problem for all strings, especially the C string which sounded off tune even at fret#2.
Put on the new D'Addario Concert strings and VOILA... it play sweet, no more problem with bad intonation. The compensated saddle did the job. I can press down the fretboard the way I normally do with mandolin and guitar, no problem at all. I have learned that setup is very important when I started mandolin 15 months ago.
I also took the time to spray two very light coats of clear lacquer to have a gloss finish, within one hour, it dries out look more shiny then before.
All this ukelele work is intermixed with the finishing of my F-style mandolin that I built (will be complete in two days, ready to play).

Glad to hear you got things fixed up kkmm.

Help me understand how you compensated at the saddle. Is it something like this... To keep the C string from going sharp up the fret board it needed to be a bit longer. The saddle is about 1/8" thick. So you file the top of the saddle so the point at which the C string bends is farther from the nut. Now the G, E & A strings still bend at the edge of the saddle facing the nut and the C string bends on a 1/16 inch or so of the saddle that is farthest from the nut.

Hi Kayak_Jim,
that is exactly what I did. Since the C string is sharp, we need to move the contact point at the saddle away from the fretboard and this is done by filing the top at and angle such that that point is where it should be. You should do this a little bit at at time and re-tune the C string and re-check intonation at fret#12.
The same method is used for other strings as well.
In my case, the original saddle is pretty thin, no room for anything like this. So I glue another piece of plastic behind it (above and laying on the bridge) to make it thick. And the thickness gave me some room to move the contact points.
On mandolin, even with the floating bridge where you can put where it is to get the two outside strings to intonate well, the middle strings still require similar process to get proper intonation.