Acacia vs Koa?

Paul December

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We've all seen sales claims that Acacia is just Koa grown elsewhere than Hawaii. In this forum I've also read the opposite, that it is nothing like Koa.
To narrow-down the discussion, can we only discuss the Acacia used by most mid-range manufacturers (whatever species that is). I've seen and owned several Acacia instruments by various manufacturers and judging by the wood grain, it does look like they are getting it from the same species of tree.
While I'm interested on whether it is actually related to Koa, I am also interested in if it had the same qualities as well: hardness, resonance, and etc. If, let's say, Koaloha made the same exact uke out of Koa & Acacia, would it sound very similar?
 
Koa is Acacia, however, Acacia is not necessarily Koa. Like you mentioned, Koa is a species of Acacia (Acacia being the "mother species" of several sub species). Koa being called Koa and is only grown in the island's of Hawaii. The very same species elsewhere have other names, like Australia (Australian Blackwood). It is kinda the same plant, but different climates cause difference characteristics due to humidity, hours a day of sunlight, oxygen levels, elevation, and many other climate conditions. So, basically, yes, it is the same, but also No it is not the same because it wasn't grown in the same climate conditions. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Acacia from other climates have characteristics of their own that warrant merit. Koa, has it's own characteristics that merit their reputation, not to mention being grown in Hawaii, that is also known for its ukuleles has a nice ring to it. All the conditions that grown any specific wood species does cause different characteristics that can, and most definatly can cause different characteristics in sound and the transfer of vibrations.
 
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To answer a specific question of yours. Correct me if I'm wrong anybody. But I think most the Acacia used commonly is what they call "Australian Blackwood", which is Acacia grown in Eastern Australia.
 
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A start would be what you already basically said. Koa is a species of the Acacia tree, Acacia koa, endemic to Hawai'i. So, actually Acacia isn't koa grown elsewhere, but koa is just Acacia that managed to evolve into it's own species in Hawai'i.

There are other species of Acacia trees, mostly found in Australia and other tropical areas, though there are some Acacia species that are found in the middle east.

Other than A. koa, I'm not sure which (or how many) species are used as tonewoods - there could be only one (such as one of the Wattles from Oz), or quite a few. Perhaps the luthiers here can chime in on this. If there are more than one, your desire to only discuss the "other" Acacia may be impossible, since each species will have different properties, and different makers would probably use different species. Besides, marketers tend to never really want to go into detail that their Acacia isn't koa, instead constantly saying that Acacia is a close relative of koa, or some such blather.

So basically, yes, koa and Acacia are related. But botanists seem to think that the two most closely related Acacia species are A. heterophylla, from Vanuatu, and A koaia, also naturally found only in Hawai'i
 
The species, "Acacia koa", is what is commonly referred to as koa. Australian blackwood is "Acacia melanoxylon". They can look similar, and are generally thought of to have somewhat different tonal characteristics. Hopefully Rick and Chuck and Allen will come by to discuss them. There are other Acacias that grow in Asia, and around the world. An 'Acacia' ukulele is just that...Acacia. Acacia???. I've yet to see a Latin name for the solid Acacia ukes coming from Asia, but would sure love to know, if anyone has an idea.

Koa is koa (or at least being represented to be koa). Blackwood is blackwood. Acacia is ??

Steve
 
A start would be what you already basically said. Koa is a species of the Acacia tree, Acacia koa, endemic to Hawai'i. So, actually Acacia isn't koa grown elsewhere, but koa is just Acacia that managed to evolve into it's own species in Hawai'i.

There are other species of Acacia trees, mostly found in ... other tropical areas... Besides, marketers tend to never really want to go into detail that their Acacia isn't koa, instead constantly saying that Acacia is a close relative of koa, or some such blather....

We use a couple of Acacias in Central America. I couldn't compare them to Koa, because we don't have that species, but they are similar to each other. Similar, but not identical

We also use a number of species of Dalbergia, the scientific name for Rosewood. Common names are Cocobolo, Palo Escrito, Honduran Rosewood, Nicaraguan Rosewood, and Camatillo. You can say they also have similar characterisctics, but definitely have different flavors.

I agree with Poi, it's blather to try to say that two woods from the same genus are identical. I haven't heard the Asian and Australian acacias, but I'm sure they are beautiful tonewoods, and should stand on their own merits - not because they are cousins of koa.
 
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As a purely practical matter, it seems like Hawaiian Koa ukulele made by the same Hawaiian uke maker can vary substantially in sound quality.

Imagine a Koa tree cut down 30 yrs. ago. Several companies haul the raw wood off and store, dry and eventually cut it into various lumber products. There are so many variables in play that influence the quality of the wood sets that make up a uke. And all that is before the uke builder introduces their own set of variables.

I think if KoAloha was able to acquire Koa & Acacia wood sets aged & cut exactly the same way, the ukes built from the different wood species (with all other factors the same) would probably sound very similar. How they age might be a different matter. They have decades of experience with Koa and Mahogany and little experience with Acacia.

But this is a purely academic question. There's plenty of Koa for ukes and none of the "K" brands are likely to switch to Acacia anytime soon. If anything, they are turning to other tone woods to get a different sound.
 
Acacia is ??
Steve

Yes, identiying them would be nice. Not only would it give people a point of reference, but as mentioned, they're probably nice tonewoods - giving them a name gives them a chance to acheive status on their own.

In our case, we are the only people I know of using them, but local names for ours are Carao, and Nispero Coyolillo. While they're beautiful woods, they don't look anything like Koa - much more refined (but also, I think, much more consistent in grain and color). I love the tone of both.
 
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What was said above, I agree with. There are SO many variables, even before the builder adds his/her own variables (bracing, glues, builds etc). However, the median and mass produced builders I truely don't believe they concentrate as much on the sound qualities as much as they do what wood they can get the most cost effective. I feel true Luthier's like Rick, and several other's here, concentrate on their materials, and build practices before the cost, and the price of their instrument reflects that (as it should be if you are buying quality), not the other way around.
 
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...I've seen acacias in Texas. Lot of 'em.
Ditto in California. They are currently in full bloom and wreaking havoc on folks with allergies. The common species here is Acacia melanoxylon (black acacia). I consider them a pest tree. They sprout just about anywhere and grow very quickly.
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I think if KoAloha was able to acquire Koa & Acacia wood sets aged & cut exactly the same way, the ukes built from the different wood species (with all other factors the same) would probably sound very similar. How they age might be a different matter.

:) This is what I was wondering most, thanks!
 
I grew up in Miami, and there were a lot of Acacia trees there (then). The leaves looked just like those on that picture of the Hawaiian Koa tree. I have no idea if the wood would sound the same. The first time I went to Hawaii, I was amazed at how many plants looked the same as the ones we had in Miami (including the guava). When I was a boy, my mom and I would drive out along the canals on the edge of the Everglades and pick guavas off the wild guava trees. I'm not sure how they got there, but probably invaded from somewhere else. She would make them into the best guava jelly I ever ate. My cab driver on my first Hawaii visit was also amazed that I knew at least the English names of so many of the plants.
 
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I think if KoAloha was able to acquire Koa & Acacia wood sets aged & cut exactly the same way, the ukes built from the different wood species (with all other factors the same) would probably sound very similar.

"Very similar", of course, is in the ear of the beholder. My experience has been different species of the same genus can have quite different sounds, even when only used as backs and sides - use them as soundboards also, and there would likely be a marked difference (again, to some ears).

Being built by the same maker does even things out, but we, at least, hear the differences between species in our own builds.
 
"Very similar", of course, is in the ear of the beholder. My experience has been different species of the same genus can have quite different sounds, even when only used as backs and sides - use them as soundboards also, and there would likely be a marked difference (again, to some ears).

Being built by the same maker does even things out, but we, at least, hear the differences between species in our own builds.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that maker made a dozen ukes, 6 with Acacia & 6 with Koa...
...would a moderately experienced player pick out the 6 Acacias?
As a natural material, I of course assume there are differences between 2 Acacia ukes or between 2 Koa ukes, but is the differences between an Acacia and a Koa, within that same range?
 
for the record, and take in account that I am far from any "pro". But, Acacia is not a "lessor" tonewood than Koa. It is similar due to being related, and yes, it tends to be cheaper as it refers to the cost of materials. BUT, it is not a "lessor" tonewood. It is only cheaper in cost, because it is more readily available than Koa. Acacia is a fine tonewood, just as Koa is, and has very nice tonal properties just as Koa does. Some differences like we all talked about, but "different", not better or worse. Also like mentioned above, Acacia can stand on it's own merit, without being compared to Koa. Koa also stands on it's merit as a fine tonewood.
 
Koa is Acacia, however, Acacia is not necessarily Koa. Like you mentioned, Koa is a species of Acacia (Acacia being the "mother species" of several sub species). Koa being called Koa and is only grown in the island's of Hawaii. The very same species elsewhere have other names, like Australia (Australian Blackwood). It is kinda the same plant, but different climates cause difference characteristics due to humidity, hours a day of sunlight, oxygen levels, elevation, and many other climate conditions. So, basically, yes, it is the same, but also No it is not the same because it wasn't grown in the same climate conditions. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Acacia from other climates have characteristics of their own that warrant merit. Koa, has it's own characteristics that merit their reputation, not to mention being grown in Hawaii, that is also known for its ukuleles has a nice ring to it. All the conditions that grown any specific wood species does cause different characteristics that can, and most definatly can cause different characteristics in sound and the transfer of vibrations.

You've done your homework Tudorp! You can't even compare koa against itself. All of the conditions you mentioned (even vog from the volcano!) will affect it's characteristics (specific gravity, weight, density, stiffness, etc). Ten sets of koa from ten different trees growing under different conditions will all be different.
 
For the sake of discussion, let's say that maker made a dozen ukes, 6 with Acacia & 6 with Koa...

One thing to realize in this discussion, Paul, is that by not identifying Acacia, you are pretty much in the dark on a question like this.

With our Dalbergias, some species sound close to each other - like a dark Brazilian, for example, while others are brighter, crisper, more defined. The one thing you can count on is great sustain.

That's largely because in density, they are fairly close.

Acacia, on the other hand, is a huge genus - the variety is such, that until you know something more specific than "Acacia", there can't be a good answer to your question.
 
There's been several threads about this and one of the more interesting threads I read was about Portugese Koa (Think it was Cordoba Ukulele) and was it really koa or acacia. Again, can't remember the brand but many were saying it was false advertisement. Someone was saying if seeds from Hawaii and planted in another country, would it still be koa?
 
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