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Nickie
04-11-2012, 05:36 PM
I don't even know if this has been invented yet, but does anyone know... what I want is the answer to lugging around songbooks, short of memorizing every song I want to play. What I want is a Kindle or a Nook that has complete songs, rather than books, downloaded on it. Is that possible, or a pipe dream?

bynapkinart
04-11-2012, 05:46 PM
I personally use a Kindle Fire. I can browse the web pretty efficiently with that. You'll have to do a lot of work to compile it, but you should be able to collect a whole bunch of tabs and put them together in a .pdf document, or use an app called Calibre to put it all into one complete file. I'm actually toying with the idea myself...I want to collect about 150 or so tabs and organize them by artist in these books, and learn how to play them when I'm on trips or bored.

Cutting and pasting is easy enough, then it's just a matter of converting it into a format that your device can read. Should be simple enough, but time consuming.

Tycho Brahe
04-11-2012, 05:58 PM
I have a sheet music app on my iPad called forScore and it works awesomely for any type of sheet music. You just save the PDF to it and voila. I bet you can import PDF files of songs to a nook or kindle too.

Ukuleleblues
04-11-2012, 06:04 PM
I don't even know if this has been invented yet, but does anyone know... what I want is the answer to lugging around songbooks, short of memorizing every song I want to play. What I want is a Kindle or a Nook that has complete songs, rather than books, downloaded on it. Is that possible, or a pipe dream?If you have it in PDF format most of the e-readers will display it. I found my nook doesn't do a very good job, some fonts are real big and some are perfect, no adjustment. I have a cheap Coby 8" tablet with android 2.x running Adiko e-reader software that works great. If you have an Apple iPad there is a lot of music tab/notation apps and peripherals available. I hooked two $10 USB pedals to my Coby tablet and made it a "tele-prompter" for the background info/interesting stories about song we play when we do theme shows. I loaded PDF tabs for an Elvis show we did on short notice (not enough time to learn them) What you want is available, just a function of $$$$s vs effort.

Canoe Lady
04-11-2012, 06:05 PM
I use my ipad and pdf files with ibooks. Super simple.

markallen
04-11-2012, 06:06 PM
I've been really happy using an iPad with OnSong. Downloads and set organizing are very easy and it will accept almost any type of file you throw at it.

http://www.onsongapp.com

roxhum
04-11-2012, 06:13 PM
Nickie, that is a great idea. I have blackberry playbook tablet that files can be downloaded on. You can get several different brands of small tablets for $200

ricdoug
04-11-2012, 07:02 PM
I have a Pandigital Novel Android 7" tablet I got at Big!Lots for under $80 bucks. It allows me to view PDF, Word, Doc and other format songsheets. I put an 8 gigabyte SD card in it and have well over a thousand songsheets loaded into it with plenty of room for more. I read issues of Ukulele Player Magazine http://www.tricornpublications.com/uke_player.htm on mine too. Ric

Manalishi
04-11-2012, 11:15 PM
A couple of Members of our Club have bought used
Laptops very cheaply and display their songs on those
as jpg's! Clear resolution, good page size and a good
battery charge lasts at least the length of a session!

1931jim
04-12-2012, 02:34 AM
A couple of Members of our Club have bought used
Laptops very cheaply and display their song son those
as jpg's! Clear resolution, good page size and a good
battery charge lasts at least the length of a session!
I like that idea. The extra screen size would be welcome, because with my failing eyesight, plus the lighting at some locations, it doesn't help with the Apple iPad and other small screen tablets.

paeataa
04-12-2012, 03:42 AM
I'm also concerned about the screen size. For folks with iPad, Kindle Fire, and Kindle, do you think tabs are readable on those tablets?

I was thinking about getting just a Kindle (B&W screen, the Fire) for storing all ukulele chords and tabs. But I haven't pulled the trigger yet due to the screen size.

My eyesight is OK though.

mattydee
04-12-2012, 05:44 AM
I'm also concerned about the screen size. For folks with iPad, Kindle Fire, and Kindle, do you think tabs are readable on those tablets?

I was thinking about getting just a Kindle (B&W screen, the Fire) for storing all ukulele chords and tabs. But I haven't pulled the trigger yet due to the screen size.

My eyesight is OK though.

The iPad has way more screen real estate than any currently available kindle or nook. Also, the e-ink kindles don't handle pdfs well. Before my iPad, I tried the tabs/songsheets on an e-ink kindle, and VERY quickly went back to paper. But with my iPad, I use GoodReader, a pdf/word/txt reader app which allows mark-up, folder organization, etc. I have all of my song sheets and pdfs of tabs, loaded and it's fantastic. It will download and sync with a dropbox folder, too. It can do 2 pages at a time, as well -- though that's in landscape view, so it's smaller, but I find still readable on a music stand.

At my local club, people are always impressed with my setup -- it's much easier than lugging around our whole songbook and adding pages to it, etc. And much more environmentally friendly.

OldePhart
04-12-2012, 06:56 AM
My vision is bad enough that I still haven't bought an iPad even though I'm a techno-geek. I rarely use the screen even on a laptop - basically only if I have to take it to a meeting and then I'm squinting and shoving my nose against it. Normally I run the laptop out to a 23" 1080p monitor and use large fonts in editors, IE zoomed to 150%, etc.

I was reading though where they're now prototyping flexible displays that can be rolled or folded. When that comes out so I can tuck a 20" display into a gig bag and unroll or unfold it onto a music stand - I'll be all over it! Until then, it's still the three-ring binder and large rubber bands to keep the pages from turning in the breeze.

John

mattydee
04-12-2012, 07:47 AM
My vision is bad enough that I still haven't bought an iPad even though I'm a techno-geek. I rarely use the screen even on a laptop - basically only if I have to take it to a meeting and then I'm squinting and shoving my nose against it. Normally I run the laptop out to a 23" 1080p monitor and use large fonts in editors, IE zoomed to 150%, etc.

I was reading though where they're now prototyping flexible displays that can be rolled or folded. When that comes out so I can tuck a 20" display into a gig bag and unroll or unfold it onto a music stand - I'll be all over it! Until then, it's still the three-ring binder and large rubber bands to keep the pages from turning in the breeze.

John

I think those foldable displays are a ways off yet. But the retina display iPad is gorgeous for reading. I'm still on the 2nd gen, but I've checked out the new one, and whew! If I didn't want so many ukes, I'd be all over that thing!

nix
04-12-2012, 08:02 AM
The retina display on the new iPad really makes a difference. I got one and I use it frequently at home to read tabs off the web and to play from some PDF songbooks I've downloaded. The only sad thing I have to report is the Daily Ukulele. Whoever set it up for Amazon kindle did a terrible job. The scores are images and they break across pages. This means that you have to tap it twice to be big enough to see then you have to tap it again to make it small, then turn the page, then double tap it again to see the rest of the song. Your group will be done with the song by the time you get to the second page. Maybe it turned out better on an actual kindle but I don't know anyone that has it on that device. I hope a better version comes to iBook someday. I would love not to have to lug my heavy Daily Ukulele around anymore.

Nix

paeataa
04-12-2012, 08:50 AM
The iPad has way more screen real estate than any currently available kindle or nook. Also, the e-ink kindles don't handle pdfs well. Before my iPad, I tried the tabs/songsheets on an e-ink kindle, and VERY quickly went back to paper. But with my iPad, I use GoodReader, a pdf/word/txt reader app which allows mark-up, folder organization, etc. I have all of my song sheets and pdfs of tabs, loaded and it's fantastic. It will download and sync with a dropbox folder, too. It can do 2 pages at a time, as well -- though that's in landscape view, so it's smaller, but I find still readable on a music stand.

At my local club, people are always impressed with my setup -- it's much easier than lugging around our whole songbook and adding pages to it, etc. And much more environmentally friendly.

Thank you for the info, mattydee. You make me want an iPad :( If it were around $200, I would have one already. I couldn't justify $500-$600 for ukulele songbook.

Kindle Fire is tempting too. But the screen is probably too small for tabs and notes.

mattydee
04-12-2012, 09:22 AM
The retina display on the new iPad really makes a difference. I got one and I use it frequently at home to read tabs off the web and to play from some PDF songbooks I've downloaded. The only sad thing I have to report is the Daily Ukulele. Whoever set it up for Amazon kindle did a terrible job. The scores are images and they break across pages. This means that you have to tap it twice to be big enough to see then you have to tap it again to make it small, then turn the page, then double tap it again to see the rest of the song. Your group will be done with the song by the time you get to the second page. Maybe it turned out better on an actual kindle but I don't know anyone that has it on that device. I hope a better version comes to iBook someday. I would love not to have to lug my heavy Daily Ukulele around anymore.

Nix

I refuse to buy a second version of something I already bought once, and you are not the first person I've heard disparage the digitization of DU. This makes me almost want to manually scan the thing page by page, but that's quite a few hours I'd rather spend playing.

Ah well.

OldePhart
04-12-2012, 11:33 AM
I refuse to buy a second version of something I already bought once, and you are not the first person I've heard disparage the digitization of DU. This makes me almost want to manually scan the thing page by page, but that's quite a few hours I'd rather spend playing.

Ah well.

Check with your local business copy/printer house. Most of them have fast auto-loading scanners that make short work of scanning a book. Of course, if it's glue-bound you have to be willing to cut the pages and basically destroy the book. But, if it's ring/spiral/plastic-spine bound you can take it apart, scan it, and put it back together.

John

nix
04-12-2012, 12:03 PM
I've also considered scanning the DU into PDF. Since it is comb bound it would be easy to take apart. I wonder if a printing company would be willing to do it or if they wouldn't because of legal/copyright issues. Definitely worth checking into. Thanks for the idea!

Nix

OldePhart
04-12-2012, 03:14 PM
I've also considered scanning the DU into PDF. Since it is comb bound it would be easy to take apart. I wonder if a printing company would be willing to do it or if they wouldn't because of legal/copyright issues. Definitely worth checking into. Thanks for the idea!

Nix

Some outfits let customers use the copiers / scanners themselves (keeps labor costs down and they're pretty foolproof after all). They probably don't much care what you copy since all they're doing is "renting" you some hardware. Full service houses might be more careful about copyright issues.

John

katyar
04-12-2012, 03:20 PM
I don't even know if this has been invented yet, but does anyone know... what I want is the answer to lugging around songbooks, short of memorizing every song I want to play. What I want is a Kindle or a Nook that has complete songs, rather than books, downloaded on it. Is that possible, or a pipe dream?

I bought a Nook Color and rooted it into a full Android tablet.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/249379/cyanogenmod_7_root_gives_nook_tablet_extra_functio nality.html

I bought a refurbished first generation Nook for $200, I think they're less now. I'm using a Class 4 SanDisc microSD card, 16 GB, try NewEgg for these, you can get a pretty good deal on them if you shop around. I have tons of books and tabs, uke books, etc., on it, and it works GREAT. It uses wifi and surfs the internet really nice.

I think I spent a total of $240 bucks and have a great little tablet worth a lot more!

Canoe Lady
04-12-2012, 08:17 PM
My vision is bad enough that I still haven't bought an iPad even though I'm a techno-geek. I rarely use the screen even on a laptop - basically only if I have to take it to a meeting and then I'm squinting and shoving my nose against it. Normally I run the laptop out to a 23" 1080p monitor and use large fonts in editors, IE zoomed to 150%, etc.

I was reading though where they're now prototyping flexible displays that can be rolled or folded. When that comes out so I can tuck a 20" display into a gig bag and unroll or unfold it onto a music stand - I'll be all over it! Until then, it's still the three-ring binder and large rubber bands to keep the pages from turning in the breeze.

John

Rubber bands? Why didn't I think of that. I usually use the beer bottle to keep the pages from turning in the breeze. Rubber bands are a way better idea!

roxhum
04-13-2012, 04:10 AM
I have a 7" bb playbook and I downloaded an app after reading this thread. For me the 7"tablet is too small to be that useful I would personally purchase the larger tablets if that is what you want to use it for. My next tablet will be a 10".

OldePhart
04-13-2012, 07:53 AM
Rubber bands? Why didn't I think of that. I usually use the beer bottle to keep the pages from turning in the breeze. Rubber bands are a way better idea!

One other hint, though. If you go to rubber bands put the music in those plastic sheet protectors. Otherwise, the rubber bands tend to tear the pages when you're trying to get the rubber band out of the way to change pages quickly.

John

mattydee
04-13-2012, 07:58 AM
One other hint, though. If you go to rubber bands put the music in those plastic sheet protectors. Otherwise, the rubber bands tend to tear the pages when you're trying to get the rubber band out of the way to change pages quickly.

John

As an iPad user, I don't need the rubber bands, but I've got friends who use clothespins, binder clips, etc.

OldePhart
04-13-2012, 08:04 AM
As an iPad user, I don't need the rubber bands, but I've got friends who use clothespins, binder clips, etc.

Binder clips work well unless it's windy enough to curl the bottom of the page when clipped at the top. Also, I tended to lose binder clips. The rubber bands stay on the notebook all the time so they last until they break (and I've always got a couple of extras in the pocket inside the binder cover for when that happens).

Also...if somebody in the crowd really annoys you then you can shoot them with the rubber band...in fact...I may start carrying paper clips too so I can use the rubber bands to shoot the paper clips..."heckle me, will ya?!" LOL

John

leadacidbattery
04-13-2012, 08:11 AM
I personally use a Kindle Fire. I can browse the web pretty efficiently with that. You'll have to do a lot of work to compile it, but you should be able to collect a whole bunch of tabs and put them together in a .pdf document, or use an app called Calibre to put it all into one complete file

OldePhart
04-13-2012, 04:40 PM
Rubber bands? Why didn't I think of that. I usually use the beer bottle to keep the pages from turning in the breeze. Rubber bands are a way better idea!

Here's an extra verse for "Blowing in the Wind" that I wrote last year...

Yes, and how many [F]chords must a [C]poor man learn,
before he can [F]pla-ay this [C]song?
Yes, and how many [F]words must that [C]one man know,
before he stops [Dm]singing it [G7]wrong?
Yes, and [C]how many [F]times will it [C]take 'til he plays
by memory and [F]all the day [C]long?
The [Dm]lead sheets, my [G7]friend, are [C]blowin' in the [Am]wind
the [F]lead sheets are [G7]blowing in the [C]wind.

John

Nickie
04-13-2012, 05:46 PM
You guys kill me. We've gone from high tech state of the art inventions to rubber bands and paper clips. But seriously (a rare moment for me), thanks for all the input!

wconley
04-13-2012, 06:27 PM
iPad with the app "Songbook" rules. You can download tons of content, input your own, edit downloaded songs, change keys, autoscroll at the speed you want, zoom in if you need bigger font, and match the song to mp3 files you have on the iPad for people like me that are melody-challenged. Did I say you can change keys to put the song in your voice range and/or find it in a key where you know the chords. You can also create play lists and sort songs by title, author or key. Then for the songs you can't get into Songbook, you can load in PDFs to read them too with the iPad reader.

We just bought our second iPad 2 at a discount of $200 off the New iPad price so my wife can have hers back. :D

OldePhart
05-11-2012, 12:16 PM
Okay, let's resurrect a thread from the dead!

We're moving to a dark stage at church and I hate the little LED stand lights because the contrast is so low I have a hard time seeing my music. So, today I was thinking maybe a Nook color, root kitted to run android apps, would be the answer.

Well, after two hours at Best Buy I came home with...an iPad 2. This means that I am going to have to turn in my software engineer's geek card because I now own an Apple device. :(

It caused me great pain to admit it but the iPad was just head and shoulders above every eReader and tablet out there - even the few tablets that cost more than it does - in every category that matters to me. The display is so sharp and high contrast that nothing else compared. It is also the most responsive in turns of changing pages, etc. The only down side is I will have to buy an app to display PDFs, but what's another ten bucks on the price of the tablet?

"Hi, my name is John and I'm not a proper software engineer because I own an Apple..." LOL

John

bynapkinart
05-11-2012, 03:44 PM
Okay, let's resurrect a thread from the dead!

We're moving to a dark stage at church and I hate the little LED stand lights because the contrast is so low I have a hard time seeing my music. So, today I was thinking maybe a Nook color, root kitted to run android apps, would be the answer.

Well, after two hours at Best Buy I came home with...an iPad 2. This means that I am going to have to turn in my software engineer's geek card because I now own an Apple device. :(

It caused me great pain to admit it but the iPad was just head and shoulders above every eReader and tablet out there - even the few tablets that cost more than it does - in every category that matters to me. The display is so sharp and high contrast that nothing else compared. It is also the most responsive in turns of changing pages, etc. The only down side is I will have to buy an app to display PDFs, but what's another ten bucks on the price of the tablet?

"Hi, my name is John and I'm not a proper software engineer because I own an Apple..." LOL

John

Awesome. I love my Macbook but for some reason can't stand the iPad. iOS is so closed that it really limits the iPad itself. It has decent specs and is very pretty, but is still just a platform for iTunes and Apple-approved developers.

One tiny piece of advice I'd have for you (you know, if you want to keep your software engineer's card) is get a Kindle Fire and root it. Android was meh for a long time, but Ice Cream Sandwich is where it's at and it competes with and excels against iOS any day of the week. There are still a few bugs with the ICS builds for the Fire, but when I let a buddy play around with it (he's an iPad 3 owner) he was a little peeved that he paid so much for the iPad.

Sure it's smaller and it doesn't have a retina display and overall requires a little more work to get ICS on it, but when you do you'll see how much better ICS is than previous Android builds. It's amazing.

Literally the only thing that's keeping the Fire from being a perfect tablet for portability and power is the lack of storage space. 8gb isn't a whole lot these days. Luckily, there's a whole mess of 8-64gb tablets coming with ICS soon, all between $200-$400.

wconley
05-11-2012, 06:02 PM
Okay, let's resurrect a thread from the dead!

The only down side is I will have to buy an app to display PDFs, but what's another ten bucks on the price of the tablet?

"Hi, my name is John and I'm not a proper software engineer because I own an Apple..." LOL

John
You don't have to buy an app, just use iBooks. Better yet, take your $10 and buy SongBook.

coolkayaker1
05-12-2012, 01:59 AM
John: I've owned every iteration of Kindle (except Fire, since I have an ipad)--even the very first one that cost 400 clams!--and a MacBook Pro and plenty of Windoze stuff and the single best device is, as you found out, an iPad. I use it every single day. And as my wife once said, she doesn't care how much I spend on something as long as I honestly use it every single, no exceptions, day.

So, when I'm walking over to spend an hour on my iPad, I strum my fingers across my custom Kiwaya Master Koa tenor. Every day.

OldePhart
05-12-2012, 12:40 PM
You don't have to buy an app, just use iBooks. Better yet, take your $10 and buy SongBook.

iBooks is kind of useless for what I want to do unless it's changed since the last reviews I read online. Neither iBooks, Kindle, nor Nook for the iPad will allow you to "side load" unprotected documents to view. They will only work with the books you purchased from the related store. :(

I'm using Stanza and so far it is perfect. The only problem is that Amazon bought the application from the developers, apparently with the intention of killing it because of the competition with Kindle. (Every online review I've found says Stanza wipes the floor with all of the big three readers.) Anyway, when IOS5 came out it killed Stanza, and Amazon, the new owners, said they were not going to update it. THere were enough people raising heck that they updated it for IOS5 but said that will be the last update.

So far it's the only reader that will side load unprotected documents and show the formatting and styles in them (not 100% implementation, but better than Megareader and the others I've tried).

So, I now have my music on the iPad at approximately the same physical size as I had on paper, but backlit and with very high contrast. It's actually easier to read than my paper sheets were with the full lighting on.

One disadvantage is that most of my lead sheets are two pages long but I was able to author the ePub versions to put the page breaks at a place where I have a hand free for a moment to tap for the next page. With the paper I had both sheets in view on my stand.

Tomorrow will be the proof of the pudding. I'll either be able to play as usual or crash and burn in front of the whole congregation. :)

John

OldePhart
05-12-2012, 12:42 PM
So, when I'm walking over to spend an hour on my iPad, I strum my fingers across my custom Kiwaya Master Koa tenor. Every day.

Heh, heh. You know, I can think of a lot of things I bet I could manage to use every single day. :)

Canoe Lady
05-12-2012, 01:37 PM
iBooks is kind of useless for what I want to do unless it's changed since the last reviews I read online. Neither iBooks, Kindle, nor Nook for the iPad will allow you to "side load" unprotected documents to view. They will only work with the books you purchased from the related store. :(

John


I use ibooks on my iPad to read pdf's. I create the pdf on my computer, put it into Dropbox. Open Dropbox on my ipad, once the pdf is open on the screen, I click "open with iBook" and there it is. I'd just leave it in Dropbox except I need WiFi connection for that. With iBooks, no WiFi needed. It's been working great for me.
I think if you email the pdf to yourself and open your email on your iPad, you could do the same thing, but I have not tried it that way.

mattydee
05-12-2012, 02:11 PM
iBooks is kind of useless for what I want to do unless it's changed since the last reviews I read online. Neither iBooks, Kindle, nor Nook for the iPad will allow you to "side load" unprotected documents to view. They will only work with the books you purchased from the related store. :(

I'm using Stanza and so far it is perfect. The only problem is that Amazon bought the application from the developers, apparently with the intention of killing it because of the competition with Kindle. (Every online review I've found says Stanza wipes the floor with all of the big three readers.) Anyway, when IOS5 came out it killed Stanza, and Amazon, the new owners, said they were not going to update it. THere were enough people raising heck that they updated it for IOS5 but said that will be the last update.

So far it's the only reader that will side load unprotected documents and show the formatting and styles in them (not 100% implementation, but better than Megareader and the others I've tried).

So, I now have my music on the iPad at approximately the same physical size as I had on paper, but backlit and with very high contrast. It's actually easier to read than my paper sheets were with the full lighting on.

One disadvantage is that most of my lead sheets are two pages long but I was able to author the ePub versions to put the page breaks at a place where I have a hand free for a moment to tap for the next page. With the paper I had both sheets in view on my stand.

Tomorrow will be the proof of the pudding. I'll either be able to play as usual or crash and burn in front of the whole congregation. :)

John

As someone else pointed out, iBooks works with your own PDFs just fine. But I use good reader, which I think is five bucks. It allows for two pages at a time, if you choose, auto scroll. It handles PDF, txt, word, etc. It will download from Dropbox or iCloud, and can organize PDFs into folders. The only thing it won't do is convert photos into PDF, so I use jot not for that.

Plus it has full support on ios, for you know, when stanza kicks it.

Pippin
05-13-2012, 01:01 AM
I have a sheet music app on my iPad called forScore and it works awesomely for any type of sheet music. You just save the PDF to it and voila. I bet you can import PDF files of songs to a nook or kindle too.

Only simple PDF designs display well on the Kindle and Nook. As for the "Fire" and Blackberry "Playbook", the same holds true, but you do have color for any graphic images. The Kindle DX would be a better choice because of the larger screen area, like the iPad. But the DX has the advantage of the e-ink screen for outdoor use.

OldePhart
05-14-2012, 12:13 PM
I use ibooks on my iPad to read pdf's. I create the pdf on my computer, put it into Dropbox. Open Dropbox on my ipad, once the pdf is open on the screen, I click "open with iBook" and there it is. I'd just leave it in Dropbox except I need WiFi connection for that. With iBooks, no WiFi needed. It's been working great for me.
I think if you email the pdf to yourself and open your email on your iPad, you could do the same thing, but I have not tried it that way.

I found a way to sideload ePubs through iTunes - it's just not intuitive because the iBooks app doesn't support the file sharing so you have to treat it kind of like a music file to get it to sync to the device, but then it will show up in the ibooks bookshelf. I think it's probably always been possible but not well known.

Once I finally got a document over there I realized that the iBooks reader is very primitive compared to Stanza. iBooks didn't recognize any of the ePub styling applied - Stanza recognized most of it.

I finally found a reliable combination that recognizes all styling - I create PDF documents using a template actually sized to the iPad dimensions, and then use "GoodReader" to view the PDF documents. Takes a little time to create the PDFs but not as much time as it was taking to format ePub documents using Sigil!

John

OldePhart
05-14-2012, 12:19 PM
As someone else pointed out, iBooks works with your own PDFs just fine. But I use good reader, which I think is five bucks. It allows for two pages at a time, if you choose, auto scroll. It handles PDF, txt, word, etc. It will download from Dropbox or iCloud, and can organize PDFs into folders. The only thing it won't do is convert photos into PDF, so I use jot not for that.

Plus it has full support on ios, for you know, when stanza kicks it.

Yeah...GoodReader and PDFs is the solution I settled on. I use open office "writer" on a PC to create the documents and export them to PDF (I created a template sized to the iPad footprint). That way I can apply all the styling I need to the text and use every inche of iPad real estate to maximum effect.

Nickie
05-14-2012, 04:49 PM
Oh lord, now I'm so confused. All this tech talk and my hole in my budget scared me away from this for now.
Can't anything be simple?