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ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 08:45 AM
I am writing this to see how all of you would handle this situation. A few weeks ago, I sold an ukulele in brand new condition from a custom maker. The reason I sold it is because it was an impulse buy for me, and I determined that I liked my other custom ukes better. I sold it on fleamarketmusic and provided very clear photographs. I also spoke to the buyer on the phone, played some chords over the phone. He determined that although he'd never heard one of these ukes in person that he'd take a chance since the price was low (I sold it to him what I paid for it), although he recognized that there is no way that he'd be able to determine how it sounds over the phone.

I told him that I thought that the uke sounded good and was a good value. I said that it had very good volume and a punchy sound. Although this custom maker isn't extremely well known, he does have positive reviews, and I haven't seen any negative ones. I tried to be as honest as possible. When this gentleman received the uke, he told me that he was very disappointed--that he felt like it had no tone and no volume and that it was made with shoddy construction. He thinks that it's overbuilt, sounds dead and is unsellable. Honestly, I have a hard time understanding how he can say it has no volume, although tone is quite subjective. And I just don't agree that it's poorly constructed. I've played many customs, and I think that this is well made. Not as good as a Mya moe, but certain a solid construction in my view.

I don't want this man to feel cheated, so I offered to post an ad for him or even contact the maker, but he seems reluctant all around. He is not asking for any money back, and recognizes that I did not offer any returns. In fact, I would not have sold to him if he demanded a return because of the hassle and because I have many times taken the same risk with ukes I've bought but have not played.

So what would you do? A big part of me feels like I should just allow the deal to stand, because it was an honest deal, and I did not misrepresent the uke in any way (although the buyer may not agree). But I just hate to have someone feel upset with something I sold him, even though I don't feel that I did anything wrong. Would be interested to hear your thoughts. Has something like this happened to you before? How did you handle it?

Skitzic
05-01-2012, 08:58 AM
No returns = no returns. We all take a risk buying an instrument we haven't played, it goes with the territory. I bought a very expensive ukulele from a highly regarded company from a private seller and hated it. Hated. It.

If you didn't misrepresent it, then it's on him that he doesn't like it. It sounds like you did everything you could have by playing him some stuff over the phone.

My :2cents:

ukulelepuapua
05-01-2012, 09:09 AM
I am writing this to see how all of you would handle this situation. A few weeks ago, I sold an ukulele in brand new condition from a custom maker. The reason I sold it is because it was an impulse buy for me, and I determined that I liked my other custom ukes better. I sold it on fleamarketmusic and provided very clear photographs. .........

Wowy! Thats a tough one; I suppose all I can answer from is the business side of things- we are 100% about the customer satisfaction- so if they aren't, then we aren't. But on a personal side of things I can understand the hassle of returns and the transaction being a final sale.

I suppose the best thing to do is try to reach an amicable solution with the buyer if you still feel poorly about the deal. If he ended up not liking it and it is in great condition- I suppose he could just re-sell it too. hmmm - Good luck! :cool:

PoiDog
05-01-2012, 09:28 AM
If I were in your shoes, I would offer to refund the full price he paid for the uke, including shipping, IF (and only if) he paid for the retun shipping, with insurance, and the 'ukulele was undamaged.

I know it was a "no return" sale. I've had a few of those, but broke my rule on the rare times when the person buying was really unhappy. In the end, it worked out better because I got what I sold back, didn't lose any money, and was able to sell it again later to someone who could appreciate it.

Hassle, yes. But long-term headache, no.

molokinirum
05-01-2012, 09:35 AM
If I were in your shoes, I would offer to refund the full price he paid for the uke, including shipping, IF (and only if) he paid for the retun shipping, with insurance, and the 'ukulele was undamaged.

I know it was a "no return" sale. I've had a few of those, but broke my rule on the rare times when the person buying was really unhappy. In the end, it worked out better because I got what I sold back, didn't lose any money, and was able to sell it again later to someone who could appreciate it.





Hassle, yes. But long-term headache, no.

I agree with PoiDod, this sounds like the fairest way to handle it. Really sounds like buyers remorse to me.

pulelehua
05-01-2012, 09:38 AM
If I were in your shoes, I would offer to refund the full price he paid for the uke, including shipping, IF (and only if) he paid for the retun shipping, with insurance, and the 'ukulele was undamaged.

I know it was a "no return" sale. I've had a few of those, but broke my rule on the rare times when the person buying was really unhappy. In the end, it worked out better because I got what I sold back, didn't lose any money, and was able to sell it again later to someone who could appreciate it.

Hassle, yes. But long-term headache, no.

I agree with this 100%. The only risk is that it's become damaged in some way, and if the buyer can give you assurances and pay postage, you should be ok. And as PoiDog says, no long-term problems, which I think is the whole goal here.

benjoeuke
05-01-2012, 09:40 AM
I agree, but to put it more clearly (to my simple mind) I would offer a full refund MINUS any and all round trip shipping/insurance costs

mm stan
05-01-2012, 09:43 AM
Tough call..Not all ukues you buy anywhere will please everyone....since you don't know the guy and how high his preferences or expections are...but if you were honest and sold it for a reasonable price, he shouldn't ask for more than it is...ie ...if he bought a china uke and expected a K brand that is not gonna happen... if he expressed dissatisfaction, he always could flip it on ebay
I just don't maybe understand why he called you if he had no intentions of returning it..after all ... I have been in that situation and probally got burned a few times, I just resell it and save the hassle

hmgberg
05-01-2012, 09:50 AM
I, too, agree with PoiDog. It's a hassle, but you are clearly bothered about it already. You may sell something again sometime, and you will have earned some extra good will by keeping the customer happy. Who knows? It may be that when you contact the buyer, he may feel differently about the ukulele.

Bill Mc
05-01-2012, 09:58 AM
As long as you accurately represented the ukulele the sale should stand. The buyer's desription of the instrument contains much hyperbole and causes me to suspect other reasons for the request to return the instrument.

bearbike137
05-01-2012, 10:00 AM
Sorry, but I completely disagree with most of the advice given here. A "no return" sale means exactly that. If the buyer doesn't like it - too bad. I'm not being heartless or unsympathetic - I have been on both sides of that kind of transaction. The buyer will have to sell it, just like you did. One reason that a used instrument costs more when you buy from a dealer is because you CAN return it. However, I think it is unreasonable to expect dealer guarantees at private party prices.

I have bought many instruments that weren't keepers for me. And you know what I did? I sold them. No big deal.

You have nothing to feel bad about.

AndrewKuker
05-01-2012, 10:04 AM
usually when you sell things, you end up getting less when listing it as no returns. that is part of the gamble and you accept you may get less because you don't want to deal with returns. a good store will guarantee your satisfaction, but this is not the route he went. he knew there was a possibility he would not like it and needs to man up and deal with it. he knew he was taking a chance and you were completely honest with your offer. selling a good ukulele from a reputable maker will not be that hard for him. (i bet he sells with a no return policy)

Coconut Willie
05-01-2012, 10:09 AM
Used item being sold.....BUYER BEWARE!!!
If the sale was a no return sale, then the buyer gets to keep the uke or sell it on his own. You did nothing that was not honest.
Move on!!!

Doc_J
05-01-2012, 10:17 AM
Many buys I have had on FMM came with a "try it and return if you don't like it" policy. Most don't indicate if there is or isn't a return policy.

Do what you think is right. I'd take it back minus the shipping (both ways).

BTW maybe the person needs a couple days to let the strings settle or replace the strings. Many used ukes sound bad if they have old/worn strings.

Can you say who the maker is?

efiscella
05-01-2012, 10:18 AM
I am writing this to see how all of you would handle this situation. A few weeks ago, I sold an ukulele in brand new condition from a custom maker. The reason I sold it is because it was an impulse buy for me, and I determined that I liked my other custom ukes better. I sold it on fleamarketmusic and provided very clear photographs. I also spoke to the buyer on the phone, played some chords over the phone. He determined that although he'd never heard one of these ukes in person that he'd take a chance since the price was low (I sold it to him what I paid for it), although he recognized that there is no way that he'd be able to determine how it sounds over the phone.

I told him that I thought that the uke sounded good and was a good value. I said that it had very good volume and a punchy sound. Although this custom maker isn't extremely well known, he does have positive reviews, and I haven't seen any negative ones. I tried to be as honest as possible. When this gentleman received the uke, he told me that he was very disappointed--that he felt like it had no tone and no volume and that it was made with shoddy construction. He thinks that it's overbuilt, sounds dead and is unsellable. Honestly, I have a hard time understanding how he can say it has no volume, although tone is quite subjective. And I just don't agree that it's poorly constructed. I've played many customs, and I think that this is well made. Not as good as a Mya moe, but certain a solid construction in my view.

I don't want this man to feel cheated, so I offered to post an ad for him or even contact the maker, but he seems reluctant all around. He is not asking for any money back, and recognizes that I did not offer any returns. In fact, I would not have sold to him if he demanded a return because of the hassle and because I have many times taken the same risk with ukes I've bought but have not played.

So what would you do? A big part of me feels like I should just allow the deal to stand, because it was an honest deal, and I did not misrepresent the uke in any way (although the buyer may not agree). But I just hate to have someone feel upset with something I sold him, even though I don't feel that I did anything wrong. Would be interested to hear your thoughts. Has something like this happened to you before? How did you handle it?

Since September I have purchased 13 ukuleles online (and sold seven). I think it should be understood that when you are purchasing online and you have not heard it live, there is risk. As long as the description is honest, along with the reason for selling, then it really is buyer beware. The comfort that I feel with the UU Marketplace is that, for the most part, it is knowledgeable regulars who are buying and selling and there is safety in that. Most in the Marketplace know the value of the instrument. The only thing that is not known is the condition and we rely on honest descriptions from the seller. There is an element of trust in there. The one thing that you really can't compensate for is "expectations" and I have a feeling that this is what your buyer is feeling regrets over. I think you did a good thing by offering a refund. You did not have to-- but you did which shows you as a genuine seller. As for the buyer, I am not quite sure why he told you about it. if he does not like it, he should sell it as Stan says, or offer it back.

I recently purchased a KoAloha Sceptre off the marketplace. From all that I read about the Sceptre, I expected to love it. I purchased it from a member who is well respected in the forums. The Sceptre arrived just as described. it looked beautiful. it sounded wonderful. I could see the artistry in its construction. I wanted to love it- but I couldn't. i gave it some time but I just was not loving it. it was so different from my Kanilea's and I discovered that for a tenor size, I Preferred the Kanile'a sound. The first thing I did was to write to the guy who sold it to me to tell him that I was not comfortable with it and I was going to put it up for sale, in case he wanted it back. I gave it a little more time and then put it up for sale with a full description of what happened. it was snatched up quickly by another UU member who tells me he loves it. The problem was not the ukulele. The problem was me and it is better that the uke now lives where it is loved and played. I never expected the original owner to make good on it, he sold it in good faith, and I purchased it in good faith, but sometimes, I know that we wish we could take some of the items that we sell, back- so I offered that-- same price and I would pay the shipping and charges. The other thing I did to honor the friendship I feel with other forum members was to offer the Sceptre for sale on the marketplace for the exact same price as I paid for it. So, in the end, it cost me the shipping and paypal fees, but I expect that to be my responsibility in this. I knew the risk going in.

tattwo
05-01-2012, 10:22 AM
Many buys I have had on FMM came with a "try it and return if you don't like it" policy. Most don't indicate if there is or isn't a return policy.

Do what you think is right. I'd take it back minus the shipping (both ways).

BTW maybe the person needs a couple days to let the strings settle or replace the strings. Many used ukes sound bad if they have old/worn strings.

Can you say who the maker is?

Im with Doc :agree:

ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 10:22 AM
Thanks for your replies guys. I am confident that I didn't do anything wrong, but it is just disheartening to see something like this happen. I have definitely purchased ukes that I didn't like and accepted that I assumed the risk for it. In this case, the buyer is not asking for his money back. He's just telling me that he's very unhappy and that the uke is of poor quality. He is also strongly implying that I deceived him about the uke's quality by suggesting I sold it because it is of poor quality. I'm really puzzled by his proclamation that there's no volume though. I actually found the uke to be very very loud....

ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 10:29 AM
BTW, to those of you who have asked or sent me PM's, I do not feel right about disclosing the maker of the uke. Although the buyer is free to write a review, I do not want to pass along a view that I don't actually share about this ukulele or its maker.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
05-01-2012, 10:33 AM
I am speaking from the view point of a builder and a seller of my own instruments. You didn't mention the price of the uke but I assume it's over a few hundred bucks. It is common practice in the custom ukulele ($$$) world to offer a money back policy if not 100% satisfied with the instrument. I'm not sure this policy even has to be stated as it's pretty much assumed these days. If a seller lists an item with a "no refunds" policy the buyer knows he is taking a chance and the item should be deeply discounted to reflect that. Every buyer, seller and builder needs to recognize the practicality of a money back guarantee since buying on the Internet is so prevalent these days. I would never buy an instrument without such a policy. Personally, I think it is up to YOU in ask if the buyer would like a refund. He is clearly not happy with the purchase. If the tables were turned, how would you feel?
Build up your karma bank and do the right thing.

Freeda
05-01-2012, 10:57 AM
Sorry, but I completely disagree with most of the advice given here. A "no return" sale means exactly that. If the buyer doesn't like it - too bad. I'm not being heartless or unsympathetic - I have been on both sides of that kind of transaction. The buyer will have to sell it, just like you did. One reason that a used instrument costs more when you buy from a dealer is because you CAN return it. However, I think it is unreasonable to expect dealer guarantees at private party prices.

I have bought many instruments that weren't keepers for me. And you know what I did? I sold them. No big deal.

You have nothing to feel bad about.

Exactly that. As a private seller you have zero obligation to provide a return option.

PoiDog
05-01-2012, 11:02 AM
Exactly that. As a private seller you have zero obligation to provide a return option.


Sorry, but I completely disagree with most of the advice given here. A "no return" sale means exactly that. If the buyer doesn't like it - too bad. I'm not being heartless or unsympathetic - I have been on both sides of that kind of transaction. The buyer will have to sell it, just like you did. One reason that a used instrument costs more when you buy from a dealer is because you CAN return it. However, I think it is unreasonable to expect dealer guarantees at private party prices.

I have bought many instruments that weren't keepers for me. And you know what I did? I sold them. No big deal.

You have nothing to feel bad about.

Certainly both of you (and others posting who share this view) are correct. Misterukulele is under no obligation to refund the money. When I posted, I tried to say what I would do in this situation, and if it were me (and it has been a couple of times for different items) I would just agree to take the thing back to end the headache, frustration, and annoyance of it all - providing that the buyer ships at their cost and insures the instrument against damage.

Chuck said it best:


Build up your karma bank and do the right thing.

It's not about obligation, it's about Aloha. Get the uke back, refund the money, and Misterukulele is back to square one, with the ability to then sell it to someone who will appreciate it.

That's just my opinion.

chris667
05-01-2012, 11:59 AM
I can't help feeling that the Internet has changed people's expectations with regards to private sales.

When it's an item that is still available to buy new, people choose secondhand because they want to get the item for less than the new price. This is perfectly reasonable. But IMO expecting to have the same comebacks as you'd get with an item from a dealer is not.

Frankly, if I was the buyer, I'd be a bit embarrassed to start whinging that I didn't like something I'd bought sight unseen. It sounds like a simple case of buyer's remorse to me rather than anything you've done wrong. Good karma doesn't come into it.

ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 12:05 PM
Ok, so I've decided to offer the buyer to take it back, less shipping/insurance. I really don't think that he was right about this uke, but life's too short to have random people in the world angry at you, feeling like you cheated them. It's not worth it.

bbycrts
05-01-2012, 12:12 PM
Ok, so I've decided to offer the buyer to take it back, less shipping/insurance. I really don't think that he was right about this uke, but life's too short to have random people in the world angry at you, feeling like you cheated them. It's not worth it.

I'm in the "you were under no obligation" camp - you were very up front and did everything you could to be honest about the uke.

However, I could also tell from the tone of your first post that it really was eating at you. I think you made the right choice for YOU. Good decision.

Eyeguy
05-01-2012, 12:19 PM
A slightly different but related tangent. On the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum, one of the older and more respected guitar forums in existence, the Buy & Sell section requires that sellers offer a 48 hour approval period, during which the buyer can return the instrument - at his expense - for any reason whatsoever provided he pays the return shipping and the instrument is returned in like condition. It certainly makes life easier when you buy, knowing that if for any reason you don't like the purchase, you are not stuck with it. On the flip side, there is also an unspoken measure of respect on the buyer's part not to abuse the system by simply buying instruments to "try out" and then returning them, which would get expensive anyway in terms of the return shipping. It is my humble opinion that such an honor system would be great here as well, and confer a greater level of prestige and respectability to the UU.

Either way, I would personally be inclined to return the gentleman's money, but that's just me.

1931jim
05-01-2012, 12:40 PM
It was written a couple of postings ago and I quote....headache, frustration, and annoyance of it all -......
The buyer wanted to save money so he opted to ""buy before he try or pay before he play""
I am from the old school, if you buy sight unseen and are dissappointed then just mark it down to experience and get on with playing it and try and be happy, and don't try and hang guilt on the seller.

OldePhart
05-01-2012, 12:49 PM
One has to wonder if it's the buyer's first "good" uke and he just had unreasonable expectations. Most guitar people who buy ukes are put off at first by the relatively low volume of even a high-end uke compared to a low-to-mid-range guitar.

Also, if he's played nothing but ukes with Aquila strings and this one had Worths or other less brash strings he might be confused by that. Every time I've changed from Aquila's to other strings I've noticed a very significant volume drop-off - but on most solid-wood ukes the improvement in tone is well worth the trade in volume.

Your dilemma here though is actually why I almost never sell anything - to me selling is rarely worth the hassle involved. I've given relatively expensive guitars and ukes away to friends and family rather than hassle with selling them.

John

Goats Can Eat Anything
05-01-2012, 12:55 PM
I agree that you wouldn't have to allow the return. But when in doubt why not take the kinder, more understanding path, if for no other reason, than it is usually the right thing to do.

ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 12:55 PM
You are probably right--I think he's confused, and I can't imagine how he can think that the volume is not there. It rings and is VERY loud. He doesn't have a lot of ukulele experience, so maybe he was expecting it to sound like Jake's Kamaka. oh well. He'll get his money back, even though I have been in situations like this where such a courtesy was not extended to me


One has to wonder if it's the buyer's first "good" uke and he just had unreasonable expectations. Most guitar people who buy ukes are put off at first by the relatively low volume of even a high-end uke compared to a low-to-mid-range guitar.

Also, if he's played nothing but ukes with Aquila strings and this one had Worths or other less brash strings he might be confused by that. Every time I've changed from Aquila's to other strings I've noticed a very significant volume drop-off - but on most solid-wood ukes the improvement in tone is well worth the trade in volume.

Your dilemma here though is actually why I almost never sell anything - to me selling is rarely worth the hassle involved. I've given relatively expensive guitars and ukes away to friends and family rather than hassle with selling them.

John

willc
05-01-2012, 01:07 PM
This whole deal give me the impression that the buyer may be a bit of a flake.
If I were in your shoes I would suggest that he sell the item himself if he does not like it.
You did everything in your power to have a smooth deal and that should be the end of it.
I hope everything goes well with the ukes return trip.

itsme
05-01-2012, 01:25 PM
I'm in the "you were under no obligation" camp - you were very up front and did everything you could to be honest about the uke.
Same here. I think the only time a refund would be in order is if the item was misrepresented (not as described) or damaged in shipping (which is why it's prudent to insure packages).

I'm sure we've all bought something at one time or another that we were unhappy with and felt the pangs of buyer's remorse.

OldePhart
05-01-2012, 01:25 PM
...maybe he was expecting it to sound like Jake's Kamaka. ...

You know, I just saw Jake in Dallas a couple of weeks ago and I have to tell you - the playing was amazing - the tone of the uke was "eh, alright." I just wasn't that impressed with it. Maybe the sound guys just didn't do a good job of handling the EQ in the house PA but the hard fan strums, especially, were almost annoying in their "non-ukiness."

John

Dan Uke
05-01-2012, 01:33 PM
You know, I just saw Jake in Dallas a couple of weeks ago and I have to tell you - the playing was amazing - the tone of the uke was "eh, alright." I just wasn't that impressed with it. Maybe the sound guys just didn't do a good job of handling the EQ in the house PA but the hard fan strums, especially, were almost annoying in their "non-ukiness."

John

The sound guy tried to make it sound like a guitar!!

Hippie Dribble
05-01-2012, 01:33 PM
It was written a couple of postings ago and I quote....headache, frustration, and annoyance of it all -......
The buyer wanted to save money so he opted to ""buy before he try or pay before he play""
I am from the old school, if you buy sight unseen and are dissappointed then just mark it down to experience and get on with playing it and try and be happy, and don't try and hang guilt on the seller.

totally agree. Buying online is not ideal, but for many of us it is our only option. Inevitably in such a circumstance there will be ukes you purchase you are less than happy with. It's part of the journey of experimenting with different instruments and finding out what ukes and makers fit you best. I have been in this buyer's shoes many times but have always accepted personal responsibility...except in one case where I was sold something that was misrepresented....in that case the seller offered to refund a portion of the sale and we met somewhere in the middle with no hard feelings.

Aside from that, if it is an honest sale and honest representation of the item in question, then it's on the buyer to take the slack and be responsible for his or her own choice. We all make choices in life and some, hopefully, we learn from. Certainly it is buyer's remorse talking and passive aggression and the offloading of guilt is poor, poor form.

That said, I think you did the right thing for you, as bbcryts said, good for you for going there mate. And all the best with the re-sale.

ukuleleleluku
05-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Used Ukulele... Caviate Emptor... Let the Buyer Beware.

The guy wasn't buying from a retailer and warranties if any do not apply to the next owner. You take your chances period.

It's just like buying a car private party. If you buy a used car from a guy and it breaks down the next day then you're SOL. It would take quite a big pair for someone to try to return a used car to the previous owner. Same thing applies to a ukulele or anything purchased privately. Used stuff is used stuff even if it's still nice.

This ties into all this PC, self entitlement attitude people have today. Nobody takes responsibility for their actions or decisions and feel they can bail out on binding agreements, verbal or written, when ever they want.

I sell on ebay and run into tons of flakes. I have zero empathy for whiners and non payers.

Paul December
05-01-2012, 01:46 PM
I wouldn't take it back, but...
...would consider sending him a new/different set of strings.

bearbike137
05-01-2012, 01:47 PM
Just wondering, but why aren't all the people that are preaching "peace, love and understanding" offering to buy that uke back from the buyer?? ;)

Dan Uke
05-01-2012, 01:47 PM
Just buy from a store if you want a return policy. We buy used cuz we want a deal.

Of course there are some who don't live by a uke shop...buy from a reputable online store.

I remember reading a thread about a luthier not getting paid by someone for a year and we are sympathizing with the non-payer because he's a nice guy. Most of us are sympathatic in all these situations because we are not the one being wronged and it's someone else.

Nuprin
05-01-2012, 01:48 PM
He is also strongly implying that I deceived him about the uke's quality by suggesting I sold it because it is of poor quality.

I'm not sure if he has accepted your offer to buy it back yet...if he hasn't, maybe you could send him some links of reviews of this luthier's ukuleles. That would at least show him that the maker is well thought of and you weren't trying to deceive.

Either way, good for you for offering the return...you certainly didn't have to and it shows a lot of integrity that you did.

RichM
05-01-2012, 02:32 PM
Just wondering, but why aren't all the people that are preaching "peace, love and understanding" offering to buy that uke back from the buyer?? ;)

Because there is no reason on earth that they should. Really, only 8 posts on UU and you wasted one of them on that snarky comment?

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
05-01-2012, 02:39 PM
Just wondering, but why aren't all the people that are preaching "peace, love and understanding" offering to buy that uke back from the buyer?? ;)

What a ridiculous comment. I sincerely hope you are young because you have a lot to learn yet about getting along on this planet.

bearbike137
05-01-2012, 03:03 PM
What a ridiculous comment. I sincerely hope you are young because you have a lot to learn yet about getting along on this planet.

Oh, come on. First of all - I am just messing around a bit. Second, don't you see just a wee bit of logic in what I was suggesting? I honestly don't think the seller is any more obligated to buy that uke back than anyone else on this forum. I was more or less (obviously less) highlighting the "logic" of my assertion. By the way, is your put-down an illustration of "getting along"?

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
05-01-2012, 03:07 PM
Oh, come on. First of all - I am just messing around a bit. Second, don't you see just a wee bit of logic in what I was suggesting? I honestly don't think the seller is any more obligated to buy that uke back than anyone else on this forum. I was more or less (obviously less) highlighting the "logic" of my assertion. By the way, is your put-down an illustration of "getting along"?

Logic? It's logical to expect someone else to buy this uke because they share a different opinion than yours? Really?

ukulelecowboy
05-01-2012, 03:14 PM
I would get that instrument back from the buyer as fast as possible, refund the money and start over. This has bad energy written all over it. Who needs it?

Sell the ukulele to another buyer. The next transaction will be so much better.

My two cents...

AussieAsh
05-01-2012, 03:34 PM
I would get that instrument back from the buyer as fast as possible, refund the money and start over. This has bad energy written all over it. Who needs it?

Sell the ukulele to another buyer. The next transaction will be so much better.

My two cents...

Agreed. The seller is completely within his rights to not accept this return but if he can afford to do so then I'd definitely recommend he does for the reasons stated above.

Plainsong
05-01-2012, 03:40 PM
Besides the guy just trolling, it seems that the school of thought that he should refund the uke is based on this private seller being a business. Well yes, if he's a business then he should have a return policy. But used stuff sold online is generally as-is unless otherwise stated.

Then there's the new age good vibe opinion that refunding will make the op feel better. I'm not so sure. Feeling made to feel guilty will be replaced by being victimized. I think this guy is taking advantage of the good spirit that uke players are known for. Notice how he doesn't just man up and state how to resolve this, he just keeps complaining instead.

Unless he can point to some physical thing that's wrong with the uke, then it's just his personal preference. If he was going to window shop he should have done that with a seller who gives test drives. When I sell locally there's no reason in the world for me not to give test drives, for example. And a few have stated they do the same thing. But that's not everyone, and it's usually worked out as part of the deal... which the buyer shouldn't have agreed to. His fault.

I agree that he's probably built up some pretty huge expectations. If it was just that it's a fine uke but not meant for him, then I wouldn't imagine him being so angry.... unless he's up to something.

tattwo
05-01-2012, 04:00 PM
This uke was for sale here too. The OP just joined UU today? .....Weird Why hide?

ukuleleleluku
05-01-2012, 04:03 PM
Because there is no reason on earth that they should. Really, only 8 posts on UU and you wasted one of them on that snarky comment?


What a ridiculous comment. I sincerely hope you are young because you have a lot to learn yet about getting along on this planet.



Oh, come on. First of all - I am just messing around a bit. Second, don't you see just a wee bit of logic in what I was suggesting? I honestly don't think the seller is any more obligated to buy that uke back than anyone else on this forum. I was more or less (obviously less) highlighting the "logic" of my assertion. By the way, is your put-down an illustration of "getting along"?

I read bearbike's comment to be sarcastic which I found amusing as well. I don't know the poster but I didn't see anything abusive by the remark on the contrary it's rings of a certain truth.

People have to be resonsible for what they do and the choices they make. The guy chose to buy the ukulele under certain conditions one of which did not include a return if not satisfied. The seller did not twist his arm. If return was a concern then he should have walked away but he didn't, he took a chance and it didn't work out for him. The adult thing to do is buck up and take responsibility for his choice, live with it, fix it or resell it. It's really that simple.

Bearmike I think was making a statement to the touchy feely crowd where we all gotta get along, no one left behind, if I make a mistake then please don't let me live with the consequences of my choices. Please ease my pain and take the burden which I brought about on myself away from me. This results in a gutless society.

People should be fair and good to each other. I agree. The problem is that the Mister ukulele was being fair but his buyer was being unfair and now has caused undo and uneeded stress to the seller and causing uneeded guilt as well.

And since when do post counts mean anything? I'm also a "Junior Member" but that doesn't mean Junior Members are in Junior High . It simply means we've just recently joined. Low post counts don't equal low intelligence.

Plainsong
05-01-2012, 04:32 PM
This uke was for sale here too. The OP just joined UU today? .....Weird Why hide?

I've had dealings that went badly with a person who's pretty popular and it would have gone very badly for me if I posted about it as myself. I'd pretty much just have to leave the online and offline uke community. Everyone just bristles at any talk of things not being all cupcakes and aloha.

Anyway, if I was going to post here about it, I'd rather take the chance and break the rules with a new username. Yeah we should all be honest, but like I said, people just don't like these things in the uke community. If the urge to warn others was greater than the urge to not be banned, then what I'd do is create a new username.

And that may not even be the OP's problem since the deal took place not on UU, but at FMM. But sadly it's just how the community works. People don't feel secure that they can be honest about bad dealings under their own usernames.

itsme
05-01-2012, 04:34 PM
This uke was for sale here too. The OP just joined UU today? .....Weird Why hide?
Interesting...

I went to fleamarketmusic earlier and surmised that it might have been the Willie Wixom that was listed as sold. Now it's listed there as available.

"Brand New Willie Wixom Slotted Headstock Koa Tenor with Abalone Rossette
Brand new Willie Wixom koa tenor with ebony binding front and back and abalone rossette with nice curls (hard to see in pics). Perfectly crafted and sounds amazing. Willie is one of the most talented and up and coming luthiers around. His wait list is already over 6 months, which is extremely impressive for someone who has only been publicly available for a short time. I'm selling this for financial reasons--total playing time on this uke, only 5 minutes."

Then I looked at the Marketplace here and find this (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?63933-Brand-New-Willie-Wixom-Slotted-Headstock-Koa-Tenor-Ebony-Bound&highlight=wixom) where ukeykondo had said it was sold, now available again and "Total playing time on this: 5 minutes".

Coincidence? I don't think so, since both listings are using the exact same photos.

So, ukeykondo, care to tell us why you apparently chose to go the disingenuous deception route to post here about it?

Personally, I think dupe accounts shouldn't be allowed here.

soupking
05-01-2012, 04:44 PM
Interesting...

I went to fleamarketmusic earlier and surmised that it might have been the Willie Wixom that was listed as sold. Now it's listed there as available.

"Brand New Willie Wixom Slotted Headstock Koa Tenor with Abalone Rossette
Brand new Willie Wixom koa tenor with ebony binding front and back and abalone rossette with nice curls (hard to see in pics). Perfectly crafted and sounds amazing. Willie is one of the most talented and up and coming luthiers around. His wait list is already over 6 months, which is extremely impressive for someone who has only been publicly available for a short time. I'm selling this for financial reasons--total playing time on this uke, only 5 minutes."

Then I looked at the Marketplace here and find this (http://www.ukuleleunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?63933-Brand-New-Willie-Wixom-Slotted-Headstock-Koa-Tenor-Ebony-Bound&highlight=wixom) where ukeykondo had said it was sold, now available again and "Total playing time on this: 5 minutes".

Coincidence? I don't think so, since both listings are using the exact same photos.

So, ukeykondo, care to tell us why you apparently chose to go the disingenuous deception route to post here about it?

Personally, I think dupe accounts shouldn't be allowed here.

I don't really feel like it's disingenuous or deceptive at all. The OP was looking for advice and didn't want to draw attention to him/or herself; OR the luthier of the ukulele in question... What's the big issue? For anyone who spends way too much time here, like me, it's pretty obvious when these issues arise what exactly is going on. I knew exactly what this was all about the second I read it. However, I wouldn't have posted and thereby humiliated the person... That's not very aloha, after all, is it?

Plainsong
05-01-2012, 05:04 PM
Dummy accounts are generally frowned on at most places, and we don't even know yet if that's the case here. There's some smoke, but is there a fire? We'll see I guess.

I just feel bad that I actually understand why someone even 100% in the right would use a dummy account. I get the reasoning behind it. The community shouldn't be like that, but it is. (By community, I mean online uke forums in general)

Anyone got popcorn for when the buyer shows up and posts pics of the huge show-stopping that are physically wrong with the uke?

Paul December
05-01-2012, 05:27 PM
Outing the OP was completely uncool.
I absolutely understand why he would post under a dummy account:
- He protects the name of the builder.
- He (possibly) protects the name of the buyer.
- If people knew who he was, it would practically make the uke un-sellable. Who would buy the uke with those criticisms made about it right-or-wrong?
There was noting in the post to make anyone think he was trying to pull something funny.
The OP came to the forum for advice and some "detective" found it necessary to punish him for it. Uncool.

ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 05:29 PM
Some of you guys are so quick to judge. The reason why I did this was to protect the luthier who I think was completely unfairly judged. In order to tell the story, I had to repeat things that someone said about the ukulele that I considered to be not only unfair but completely and factually wrong about it. Objectively wrong. The luthier deserves better than that and the last thing I wanted to do is put him in a position where he'd have to defend himself against what I consider to be invalid criticism. If I were just interested in protecting my money, and didn't care about integrity, I wouldn't have even asked the question in the first place. It would have been a non-issue and I wouldn't have even considered the return that I've already agreed to.

So go ahead and accuse me of being disingenuous and deceiving. But maybe just stop and think about what happened with this whole thread and ask yourself if it's really that simple. BTW, by 'outing' the uke, I'm sure that the resale value is pretty much shot, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as what people may conclude about the luthier from this very thread that I am responsible for creating. I find that to be even worse than the predicament that I found myself in in the first place.

Dan Uke
05-01-2012, 05:47 PM
This is going off on a tangent but I am personally happy that the luthier was mentioned as it add a lot more credibility to those who have been in the business much longer. It takes skills to make an instrument sound good and now a days, this site has become Baskin Robbins where there is a new flavor or luthier of the month.

To play devil's advocate, he or any other luthier could make a wonderful sounding uke but it just wasn't the sound that the end user wanted. This is blaphemous on UU but I even heard that someone doesn't like MBU!!! Chuck it wasn't me and I would love to be on your waitlist :p

Bill Mc
05-01-2012, 05:59 PM
Nogdam, I can't imagine how you come to that conclusion in your first sentence. Neither you nor I know what the ukulele in question sounds like. That is unless you have played it ?

soupking
05-01-2012, 05:59 PM
This is going off on a tangent but I am personally happy that the luthier was mentioned as it add a lot more credibility to those who have been in the business much longer. It takes skills to make an instrument sound good and now a days, this site has become Baskin Robbins where there is a new flavor or luthier of the month.

To play devil's advocate, he or any other luthier could make a wonderful sounding uke but it just wasn't the sound that the end user wanted. This is blaphemous on UU but I even heard that someone doesn't like MBU!!! Chuck it wasn't me and I would love to be on your waitlist :p

You just totally contradicted yourself and you make no sense as a result. On one hand, you say that new builders are incapable of producing viable instruments, yet on the other you imply that seasoned builders cannot please everyone. THAT'S the point, in my opinion: that the luthier is the one who suffers here. Now everyone will think that WW is an incompatent maker, and that's unfortunate; and it's evidently what the OP was trying to avoid. Apparently there are a lot of UUers who are happy with *their* WW ukes- the buyer and the seller here were not; "different strokes for different folks."

ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 06:04 PM
And this is what saddens me. nogdam, a great player whose posts I've enjoyed reading has come to this conclusion with nothing more than a second hand statement made by a random person who for all we know knows nothing about ukuleles. I'm not blaming him--it's the nature of what happens with these types of posts. If the buyer had posted a review, then so be it. But in this context, it's just so unfortunate that snippets of questionable criticism start to take a life of their own.


Nogdam, I can't imagine how you come to that conclusion in your first sentence. Neither you nor I know what the ukulele in question sounds like. That is unless you have played it ?

Hippie Dribble
05-01-2012, 06:18 PM
what a shame this has gone in the direction it has. Post #50 = totally unnecessary. It seems to me the OP had honourable intentions in the desire to protect the builder against misinformation and subjective slander. Like Matt said, anyone who hangs out here knew the story as it stood anyway. To expose this in such a public and nasty manner is unfair and utterly against the spirit of the original post in the thread.

I have put up lots of posts in the past that I regretted. I'm glad that one wasn't mine. :(

Dan Uke
05-01-2012, 06:27 PM
You just totally contradicted yourself and you make no sense as a result. On one hand, you say that new builders are incapable of producing viable instruments, yet on the other you imply that seasoned builders cannot please everyone. THAT'S the point, in my opinion: that the luthier is the one who suffers here. Now everyone will think that WW is an incompatent maker, and that's unfortunate; and it's evidently what the OP was trying to avoid. Apparently there are a lot of UUers who are happy with *their* WW ukes- the buyer and the seller here were not; "different strokes for different folks."

Of course I contradicted myself as that's the definition of a devil's advocate. My opinion is my opinion alone and it's stated to provoke a thought. We are all fans of a this luthier or that luthier and I would be adamant on "defending" who I think makes a good uke too. Lexxy loves his WW and did a great review. If the buyer doesn't like it as much, he should have a right to say so as well. How can we be swayed so much by a negative comment about a uke?

This is becoming another Eddie Vedder thread...How many remember that one!! LOL

Paul December
05-01-2012, 06:33 PM
...If the buyer doesn't like it as much, he should have a right to say so...
He didn't do so publicly...
...you did, without playing it.

jinsk90
05-01-2012, 06:33 PM
I miss the days when Deach was around

Bill Mc
05-01-2012, 06:40 PM
Nogdam, your conclusion based on unproven assertions, "This is going off on a tangent but I am personally happy that the luthier was mentioned as it add a lot more credibility to those who have been in the business much longer," recklessly besmirches the luthier the OP tried to leave out of the conversation. How is that playing the devil's advocate and why would you have any interest assuming the role ?

ukeykondo
05-01-2012, 06:45 PM
Just to be clear from all of you who are assuming that I did not like the uke--that is not the case at all. I have sold many ukes that I've liked, including koalohas, vintage martins, gibsons, kamakas and even a glyph. I just buy more than I should because it's the only way I have to try out all the different ukes that are out there. Is the WW as good as a Mya Moe or a Collings--of course it's not. But I would stack it up against almost all production ukes and even up against some of the non-elite customs that I've played. It's a very good uke and I still consider it a great value, even though I realize that its resale value is pretty much dead because of this thread.


Of course I contradicted myself as that's the definition of a devil's advocate. My opinion is my opinion alone and it's stated to provoke a thought. We are all fans of a this luthier or that luthier and I would be adamant on "defending" who I think makes a good uke too. Lexxy loves his WW and did a great review. If the buyer doesn't like it as much, he should have a right to say so as well. How can we be swayed so much by a negative comment about a uke?

This is becoming another Eddie Vedder thread...How many remember that one!! LOL

soupking
05-01-2012, 06:46 PM
Of course I contradicted myself as that's the definition of a devil's advocate. My opinion is my opinion alone and it's stated to provoke a thought. We are all fans of a this luthier or that luthier and I would be adamant on "defending" who I think makes a good uke too. Lexxy loves his WW and did a great review. If the buyer doesn't like it as much, he should have a right to say so as well. How can we be swayed so much by a negative comment about a uke?

This is becoming another Eddie Vedder thread...How many remember that one!! LOL

Whatever, I don't think you're supposed to inject your own opinion before playing Devil's Advocate; kinda goes against the whole concept, or maybe I'm just too drunk. Haha. Anyway, I think the point is the OP didn't want to give off the impression that the luthier isn't up to snuff- it just wasn't the instrument for him/or her.

weerpool
05-01-2012, 06:53 PM
Outing the OP was completely uncool.
I absolutely understand why he would post under a dummy account:
- He protects the name of the builder.
- He (possibly) protects the name of the buyer.
- If people knew who he was, it would practically make the uke un-sellable. Who would buy the uke with those criticisms made about it right-or-wrong?
There was noting in the post to make anyone think he was trying to pull something funny.
The OP came to the forum for advice and some "detective" found it necessary to punish him for it. Uncool.

for the old folks out there, theres a term for this ; TROLLING.

Dan Uke
05-01-2012, 06:58 PM
Whatever, I don't think you're supposed to inject your own opinion before playing Devil's Advocate; kinda goes against the whole concept, or maybe I'm just too drunk. Haha. Anyway, I think the point is the OP didn't want to give off the impression that the luthier isn't up to snuff- it just wasn't the instrument for him/or her.

I think you're correct!!! HAHA I'm confusing myself...drink a beer for me!!

I have not played his instrument and I'm sure most of the people who are on the waitlist haven't either.

I'm just like the majority, I read a post on UU, check out the website, hear some samples and decide if I like the sound or not.

Misterukulele, I agree that you never said that you didn't like the uke...The buyer who bought from you said he didn't like the uke.

Bill Mc
05-01-2012, 07:16 PM
for the old folks out there, theres a term for this ; TROLLING.

I'm old. On that you can rely. Now tell me weerpool, what in the OP'S post is inflammatory, off-topic, or meant to provoke an emotional response ? Enlighten us old folk who rely on logic and proven facts before making assertions.

pakhan
05-01-2012, 07:27 PM
Sorry folks I just realised I really had nothing to add to the argument other than the OP has no obligation to have offered the refund although it is cool of him to do so. Original ramble left intact below...

-----

What Chuck Moore and Sean Ormsby said echo my experiences in dealing with guitars. As professional dealers and luthiers we live on customer satisfaction.

Having said that, there is a limit to what we can do, as dealers or as private sellers. To be fair, no one can please everyone and sometimes, it is better to be clear and upfront. For example, if there is seconds or a used, damaged instrument, it is usually as-is, unless significantly different from described or expected.

Yes it is open to interpretation, but that is why a no-returns instrument is sold with a discount, especially from private sellers. Anything extra is just that, extra.

Dan Uke
05-01-2012, 07:31 PM
I'm old. On that you can rely. Now tell me weerpool, what in the OP'S post is inflammatory, off-topic, or meant to provoke an emotional response ? Enlighten us old folk who rely on logic and proven facts before making assertions.

Did you look up Wikipedia to see what trolling means cuz I did. LOL

Bill Mc
05-01-2012, 07:34 PM
Did you look up Wikipedia to see what trolling means cuz I did. LOL

Precisely, I'm old . Now we are on the same footing - the same reference. So tell me why you consider the OP a troll as per the definition we both accept.

Dan Uke
05-01-2012, 08:26 PM
Precisely, I'm old . Now we are on the same footing - the same reference. So tell me why you consider the OP a troll as per the definition we both accept.

Bill, I think you're confusing me with Weerpool.

I'm probably more a troll than the OP. :p You can call me Shrek

chris667
05-01-2012, 08:33 PM
I think this thread ought to be locked and forgotten about. Nothing good will come of it from this point on.

mm stan
05-01-2012, 11:14 PM
This would be great for a Seinfeild episode...LOL ha ha

barefootgypsy
05-01-2012, 11:57 PM
Some of you guys are so quick to judge. The reason why I did this was to protect the luthier who I think was completely unfairly judged. In order to tell the story, I had to repeat things that someone said about the ukulele that I considered to be not only unfair but completely and factually wrong about it. Objectively wrong. The luthier deserves better than that and the last thing I wanted to do is put him in a position where he'd have to defend himself against what I consider to be invalid criticism. If I were just interested in protecting my money, and didn't care about integrity, I wouldn't have even asked the question in the first place. It would have been a non-issue and I wouldn't have even considered the return that I've already agreed to.

So go ahead and accuse me of being disingenuous and deceiving. But maybe just stop and think about what happened with this whole thread and ask yourself if it's really that simple. BTW, by 'outing' the uke, I'm sure that the resale value is pretty much shot, but that doesn't bother me nearly as much as what people may conclude about the luthier from this very thread that I am responsible for creating. I find that to be even worse than the predicament that I found myself in in the first place.Misterukulele, you have my sympathy. I read your first post and had a horrible feeling that it was all going to go pear-shaped in the end ... I've seen it happen on here before, sadly. Someone manages to find and post the details that you never intended to have revealed, you hoping to get good advice without causing hurt to anyone. With issues like yours, once you've hit that "post" button you're on a wing and a prayer that it doesn't all go wrong. I hope you can get the situation dealt with now with some sort of satisfaction to all concerned. Hope you have a good day.

beginnerukeman143
05-02-2012, 12:44 AM
who votes we close this thread?

coolkayaker1
05-02-2012, 01:58 AM
who votes we close this thread?

Informative threads will die a natural death when opinions have been said. No need to yank the soapbox out for those now or in the future that might have something to add, or with an opinion to be heard.

barefootgypsy
05-02-2012, 01:58 AM
who votes we close this thread?I do - close it

haolejohn
05-02-2012, 02:15 AM
I haven't read the whole thread but I once sold a uke to a UUer and let him know that if he was unhappy, he could return it. He returned it. I don't remember if he refunded the shipping fees but he paid for shipping to me. I paid for shipping to him. It didn't bother me at all. I also once traded a kamaka for an ana'ole. We traded with the friendly offer of...return if you no like.

Regardless of wheter or not the OP was obligated, he did the right thing. Even if he did nothing, that would have been the right thing.

AndrewKuker
05-02-2012, 02:22 AM
Just sell the ukulele to us and we will sell it in our store where someone can play it and choose. Maybe we can post a video and show everyone that it is a good instrument. Because I am sure it is, and I don't think this post was the worst that could happen to the builder. It kind of made me want one :rolleyes:
For every maker there are people that appreciate them and people that don't .

ukeykondo
05-02-2012, 02:44 AM
I think I would like this. I feel like I owe the luthier something back. I would post my own review, but I don't really have the equipment. Maybe I will try to figure that out, but if it doesn't work, I may very well take you up on it. I had actually written a review, a positive review, which is pretty consistent with what other owners of his ukes have said. I have not seen a negative review of this luthier's ukes, other than what the buyer has said to me in personal emails. And you know what, I think all of us who've been around long enough realize that there isn't a single ukulele out there that will please everyone. I even remember someone once writing that that didn't like the tone of Moore Bettahs (at that point, I questioned whether that person likes the tone of music!); I've met a handful of people who say they don't like Collings (which I only mention bc they are awesome), and even I will confess that there have been certain Kamakas that I thought were just ok, while others that were ethereal.


Just sell the ukulele to us and we will sell it in our store where someone can play it and choose. Maybe we can post a video and show everyone that it is a good instrument. Because I am sure it is, and I don't think this post was the worst that could happen to the builder. It kind of made me want one :rolleyes:
For every maker there are people that appreciate them and people that don't .

Skitzic
05-02-2012, 03:14 AM
...I kind of figured this thread would take a tun like this. I was hoping it wouldn't...but yeah.

It is a shame that the instrument and the manufacturer are tarnished because someone with way too much time on their hands went and connected dots that really didn't need connecting. There's so much talk of aloha spirit and fluffy bunnies eating rainbows and sunshine...but I think we've been infested with wolves.

I have had bad experiences with popular members here. Why didn't I speak up about them? Because you just can't be critical of some people / dealers / luthiers on this forum without the pitchforks and torches coming out...and that's a shame.

OP, good luck.

wickedwahine11
05-02-2012, 03:15 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, let's not deteriorate into personal attacks, snarkiness and general off topic rants. If you have something to add on the initial topic posted by the OP then do so. If it is not relevant, then do not continue to lead this thread down this path. I am not closing it yet, but at the next sign of irrelevant or rude comments, I will.

ukuhippo
05-02-2012, 03:27 AM
Just sell the ukulele to us and we will sell it in our store where someone can play it and choose. Maybe we can post a video and show everyone that it is a good instrument. Because I am sure it is, and I don't think this post was the worst that could happen to the builder. It kind of made me want one :rolleyes:
For every maker there are people that appreciate them and people that don't .

That's very generous of you HMS guys. Idea: Maybe the OP should let the buyer sell it to HMS.

And also to the OP:
My opinion: To avoid complications:No returns is no returns. I think it's very nice of you that you are/were still open to taking the uke back, and that you were trying to protect a luthier by keeping his name out, and by stating the uke is very good in your opinion (and I'm sorry this thread turned into a Sherlock-Holmes-on-acid-story).

This thread really shows how close, considering and warm a very large part of the uke community is. Love you guys and gals.
Edit: and I really mean that.

AndrewKuker
05-02-2012, 03:42 AM
That's very generous of you HMS guys. Idea: Maybe the OP should let the buyer sell it to HMS.

And also to the OP:
My opinion: To avoid complications:No returns is no returns. I think it's very nice of you that you are/were still open to taking the uke back, and that you were trying to protect a luthier by keeping his name out, and by stating the uke is very good in your opinion (and I'm sorry this thread turned into a Sherlock-Holmes-on-acid-story).

This thread really shows how close, considering and warm a very large part of the uke community is. Love you guys and gals.
Edit: and I really mean that.

Good idea, but maybe the original condition should be confirmed first. After that, they can just call or email and we can buy. :D
As ukulele players we naturally don't care what other people think. I'm excited to check it out!

ukeykondo
05-02-2012, 03:45 AM
I will let you know when I get it back. I'm actually very anxious to get it back in my hands to play it and confirm my original opinion of the uke.


Good idea, but maybe the original condition should be confirmed first. After that, they can just call or email and we can buy. :D
As ukulele players we naturally don't care what other people think. I'm excited to check it out!

Ronnie Aloha
05-02-2012, 03:54 AM
Nice offer Andrew. Aloha spirit at its finest.

bearbike137
05-02-2012, 03:59 AM
Good idea, but maybe the original condition should be confirmed first. After that, they can just call or email and we can buy. :D
As ukulele players we naturally don't care what other people think. I'm excited to check it out!

Andrew - isn't like, 3 am, in Hawaii? Do you ever sleep? :D

And you continue to cement my initial impression of you and your shop - first class!

webby
05-02-2012, 03:59 AM
I wish i always got my money back after i bought something and then wasn't happy even though there was nothing wrong with the product, if it had a genuine fault then sure a refund is in order, but if it is just a matter of taste then buyer beware rules apply.

ukeykondo
05-02-2012, 04:06 AM
BTW, just to be clear (and sorry for all these clarifications, but given what's happened to this thread I feel the need), I have not and will not ask the luthier for a refund. Had I thought that there was a problem with the uke and had I thought that it was flawed or problematic, I would have immediately gone to the luthier to complain, rather than try to sell it. The reason I chose to sell it is because I have too many ukes and this was an impulse buy, and under those circumstances, I do not think it's appropriate to ask a luthier to do a refund on a custom.

PoiDog
05-02-2012, 04:37 AM
Wow, talk about a thread degenerating into flames, snark, and completely tangential topics.

Without going into any ethical accusations or other assumptions about any of it, it's my belief that the OP did the right thing by offering to take the uke back, provided it was in the original condition and the buyer pays for the return shipping.

Of course there is no obligation to do so, but there is also no obligation for people to give up a seat to an elderly person, or to hold a door open for someone who is laded with baggage, or to smile and say hello to someone on the street. We do those things not because we are obligate, but because it's polite and often just the right thing to do.

Good for the OP for making the choice he did. As to the way the rest of this thread has gone ... well ... Shecky, get the jet , cause I am outta here.

ukeykondo
05-02-2012, 05:03 AM
I have just purchased a digital sound level meter, which I intend to use to put the volume of this uke to the test. Of course there may be questions about how I conduct the test, but at this point, I think that's the best that I can do evaluate the uke objectively, based on the criticism that the uke doesn't have volume

OldePhart
05-02-2012, 07:03 AM
Outing the OP was completely uncool.
I absolutely understand why he would post under a dummy account:
- He protects the name of the builder.
- He (possibly) protects the name of the buyer.
- If people knew who he was, it would practically make the uke un-sellable. Who would buy the uke with those criticisms made about it right-or-wrong?
There was noting in the post to make anyone think he was trying to pull something funny.
The OP came to the forum for advice and some "detective" found it necessary to punish him for it. Uncool.

+1 on this, for sure. It's not like the OP was here complaining about somebody by name and trying to trash someone's reputation. He was going out of his way to take the "high road" by not identifying either the buyer or the luthier, even when people had asked him to identify the latter. So much for that... :(

Plainsong
05-02-2012, 08:55 AM
And this is why honesty in the uke community is actually discouraged. Yay for all the people trolling with useless posts, call outs, and whining that the thread should just be closed. It's because of people like that, that we can't have nice things.

Think about that when you're doing your homework on some uke brand or luthier. You won't read one single honest post on the subject, because everything has to be all sunshine and cupcakes. That's a step back for progress.

I think the buyer scammed the OP more than a little bit. Don't everyone be so sunshine and cupcakes, that people take advantage of you. :(

RichM
05-02-2012, 10:00 AM
Where to start....


And this is why honesty in the uke community is actually discouraged. Yay for all the people trolling with useless posts, call outs, and whining that the thread should just be closed. It's because of people like that, that we can't have nice things.

I'll start by agreeing with this. Calls for threads to be closed are pointless. If you don't like the content of a thread, stop reading it. It's only when threads become patently offensive or unproductive that they should be closed. This one is lively, but for the most part, on point.

I don't know that honesty in the uke community is "actually discouraged." You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree.


Think about that when you're doing your homework on some uke brand or luthier. You won't read one single honest post on the subject, because everything has to be all sunshine and cupcakes. That's a step back for progress.

Nobody is preventing ANYBODY from posting their opinions on any uke brand or luthier. If you want to post that stuff go for it. But own what you post. If you get blowback from other users, live with it and stand behind your opinion. If you want to demand the right to be critical of a lutheir or a seller, then you have to accept others' rights to be critical of you. It cuts both ways, and if you don't like it, find another community.

I find that the people who post about their instruments or their experiences tend to be those who are either extermely satisfied or extremely dissatisfied, so their perspectives are of limited utility. That being said, I've seen lots of opinions and reviews from people whom I respect who helped inform my decisions.

As far as disputes between buyers and sellers, they should be remedied between said buyers and sellers, not immediately posted to the board for public consumption. Many's the time on other instrument forums where I've seen buyers immediately post their dissatisfaction with a deal to a public board, without so much as contacting the seller to allow them to make things right. What's the point?



I think the buyer scammed the OP more than a little bit. Don't everyone be so sunshine and cupcakes, that people take advantage of you. :(

First of all, I see no evidence that the buyer scammed the OP at all. The buyer admitted that he had no right to return the uke, but expressed his displeasure with it. The OP acknowledged that he had no obligation to take the uke back, but wanted to do what he felt was the right thing. He solicited opinions, got a range of them, and made the decision that was right for HIM. Not the right decision or the wrong decision, but the one that made him feel he had done right. Nobody is under any obligation to do the same. And not one poster on this thread suggested he was obligated to accept a return; many did acknowledge that treating people decently is its own reward.

If treating other people a little better than they deserve is "sunshine and cupcakes," well, then sign me up up for sugar and melanoma. Life is short, it doesn't hurt to try to do good. And if you think that means I get taken advantage of all the time, guess again.

Rick Turner
05-02-2012, 10:15 AM
This whole thread is a good reason for folks NOT to post behind handles, but rather to use their real names on this and any other forum. If you can't back up and take ownership of whatever reputation you're going to get due to the content of your posts, then perhaps you should think twice before hitting that Post Quick Reply button.

efiscella
05-02-2012, 10:20 AM
This whole thread is a good reason for folks NOT to post behind handles, but rather to use their real names on this and any other forum. If you can't back up and take ownership of whatever reputation you're going to get due to the content of your posts, then perhaps you should think twice before hitting that Post Quick Reply button.

I agree :agree:

bearbike137
05-02-2012, 10:31 AM
This whole thread is a good reason for folks NOT to post behind handles, but rather to use their real names on this and any other forum. If you can't back up and take ownership of whatever reputation you're going to get due to the content of your posts, then perhaps you should think twice before hitting that Post Quick Reply button.

Sure, as if you are the ACTUAL Rick Turner.... :)

Dan Uke
05-02-2012, 10:31 AM
Is today Round 2?

RichM made some good points especially if you make any comments, own up to it and get ready for disagreements. People can disagree or agree with the OP, me, anyone and it's all good.

I think this publicity is good for WW as people will now check out his website and listen to sound samples and I know people don't want to admit it here but buy it without playing one. I live in Socal and I wouldn't fly out to Nocal to test out a uke. I wouldn't even drive to Santa Cruz to play Rick Turner's uke. Most of us will give an opinion by what we hear, which is highly influenced by the recording equipment and our computer speakers. That's just the way most of us operate and it's all good.

Andrew made a great comment about ukers don't care what other people think...Think about that as if most of us cared what other people said, we wouldn't play uke but a guitar!!! It's all good.

ksiegel
05-02-2012, 10:32 AM
Not that my opinion means anything, but...

I don't feel the resale value of the instrument in question has been compromised - I'd love to be able to afford it.

Both sides of the discussion (and the occasional argument) have valid points. When I started with ukuleles, I didn't have enough knowledge of what I was getting into to even consider buying a high-end, or custom instrument. A year and a half later, I do.

With rare exceptions, I'll not purchase a ukulele before I play it, or a reasonable representative of that particular instrument. If I buy one unseen and unplayed, I like to set the rules first. With my local dealer, the rule was simple: When it comes in, I play it. If I don't like what I'm hearing/feeling, I'm under no obligation to accept the instrument.

With used instruments, which I haven't bought yet, I'd like similar rules. I have yet to sell anything, but did offer one instrument to another UU member stating: I'll ship it to you, well packed. You open it, play it, and decide. If you want the uke, pay me. If you don't want it, please return it at your expense,well packed.

This works for me because I can afford it. I know others are not so lucky.



-Kurt

barefootgypsy
05-02-2012, 10:43 AM
Sure, as if you are the ACTUAL Rick Turner.... :)Hilarious! :D

Moore Bettah Ukuleles
05-02-2012, 10:54 AM
If treating other people a little better than they deserve is "sunshine and cupcakes," well, then sign me up up for sugar and melanoma. Life is short, it doesn't hurt to try to do good. And if you think that means I get taken advantage of all the time, guess again.

Thank you. That's refreshing to hear. Treating people kindly and decently, especially when it's not required or expected, is indeed it's own reward.
When given the choice to be happy or to be right, I'll choose the former every time.

Rick Turner
05-02-2012, 11:03 AM
I am...this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Turner_%28luthier%29

It is standard for on-line vintage guitar stores to allow a 48 or 72 hour approval time window. You pay shipping both ways, though, if you decide not to keep the instrument. Gruhn, Mandolin Brothers, Elderly, Gryphon...they all have variations on this general policy.

It's a bit different for custom builds. If someone custom orders a uke from me and then decides they don't like it (it's happened once in the past five or six years...), I'll take it back and refund the build money when I find a new buyer for that instrument. In the one case where that happened, and that was a few months ago, the instrument sold the second time for more than I got for it the first time, and the buyer has now ordered four more ukes from me. Win, win, win...

PoiDog
05-02-2012, 11:04 AM
[...] And not one poster on this thread suggested he was obligated to accept a return; many did acknowledge that treating people decently is its own reward.

If treating other people a little better than they deserve is "sunshine and cupcakes," well, then sign me up up for sugar and melanoma. Life is short, it doesn't hurt to try to do good. And if you think that means I get taken advantage of all the time, guess again.

Yeah, add me to the list of sugar junkies with moles. I guess I just never really thought that doing something just because it was the polite, kind, decent, or otherwise beyond-the-minimal-obligation was a bad thing, and I wonder when did it become so?

RichM
05-02-2012, 11:06 AM
Thank you. That's refreshing to hear. Treating people kindly and decently, especially when it's not required or expected, is indeed it's own reward.
When given the choice to be happy or to be right, I'll choose the former every time.

Want to move me to the top of your waitlist? That would make you feel *great*! :)

chris667
05-02-2012, 11:27 AM
And this is why honesty in the uke community is actually discouraged. Yay for all the people trolling with useless posts, call outs, and whining that the thread should just be closed. It's because of people like that, that we can't have nice things

You're right, it was poor judgement on my part.

I suggested everyone step away and the thread was closed because it was getting personal. I felt that nothing useful was being accomplished, and that these little resentments might spill into other parts of the forum, making it less enjoyable to participate in.

Saying that, I don't see how I am preventing anyone from doing anything. The thread still lumbering on, and that's OK.

Plainsong
05-02-2012, 11:47 AM
Yeah, no one is reading anything that's actually being said, or they're ignoring the context of earlier thread posts to make a point. It's not constructive, and proves what happens when you deal with anything that isn't sunshine and cupcakes in the forums. Honest opinions are only ever shared in whispers. If that makes me horrible in the eyes of some, oh well. I already stated that I prefer to let people test drive the uke, but we'll ignore that part in order to prove the other point. To the op, sorry I tried to defend you dude.

ukeykondo
05-02-2012, 12:10 PM
I don't actually take anything that's been written on here personally--even the comment that accused me of being disingenuous and deceptive, and I'd be surprised if the author of that comment still stands behind it. I did actually find it good to read the different perspectives about selling/returning. Ultimately I made my decision based purely on the fact that I didn't want negative feelings to be lingering out there. The only possible negativity I still feel is about causing a skilled and honest luthier to at all be questioned based on what I consider to be dubious criticism, but even that will eventually be sorted out, as more people write reviews and speak from experience. I will do whatever I can in the meantime to try to address these criticisms, which I consider to be invalid, once I get the uke back...although it is good to hear that most have the maturity to make their own independent judgments.


Yeah, no one is reading anything that's actually being said, or they're ignoring the context of earlier thread posts to make a point. It's not constructive, and proves what happens when you deal with anything that isn't sunshine and cupcakes in the forums. Honest opinions are only ever shared in whispers. If that makes me horrible in the eyes of some, oh well. I already stated that I prefer to let people test drive the uke, but we'll ignore that part in order to prove the other point. To the op, sorry I tried to defend you dude.

mm stan
05-02-2012, 01:43 PM
Aloha MisterUkulele,
I am quite sure you didn't mean for this all to happen...and open a can of worms, too many assumptions were made here ......and I hope you can clear this up for the builder...
NOT saying this is you...but some who order custom ukes have no experience in communtcating with the luthier and their ukes do not
come out as expected...make sure to make a wish list and cover all the bases and never assume anything...or you may not get what you want..
I have learned myself, it's not always the builders fault....do your research and give exact dementions...remember do not skip this process...
Thank you for trying to make things right, you are a good man....Mahalo Maikai'i
PS Andrew you are a good man too...mahalo Brah too

mm stan
05-02-2012, 01:48 PM
[QUOTE=RichM;929555]Want to move me to the top of your waitlist? That would make you feel *great*! :)[/QUOTe

Ha Ha You sneaky bugga.....remember the line at the Movies, Supermarket, Nightclubs etc... wait your turn....LOL:):p

pakhan
05-02-2012, 05:27 PM
Want to move me to the top of your waitlist? That would make you feel *great*! :)

Then how about letting me take your slot, wouldn't that make you feel great too?

:P

ROTFLAO.

tjomball
05-02-2012, 11:58 PM
I can't reply from a luthiers POV.
But as a contractor I deal with similar situations every now and then.
The one thing I have to remember is that I'm the skilled and knowledgable one when it comes to my trade.
And in the end my name is going to be attached to that project forever.
If the client makes unreasonable requests Its up to me to spot this at the planning stage and iron out the wrinkles in the plan so to speak.but even with all the meetings and plans. Without fail something pops up. The client doesn't like the tiles he picked out HIMSELF. So what has to be done. Change it to the clients specifications, at HIS cost. If it was agreed upon in contract that the original work done was as agreed. If I **** something up. I fix it At my expense.
So far I haven't had to shoulder any additional costs.
Sorry for ranting here. But my point is. OP made the terms very clear to begin with. NO REFUNDS OR TAKE BACKS.
Fair enough for me. Buy secondhand and it tends to work like that.
And there's a rather large distinction between good honest critique of something and slander and trolling.
OP went above and beyond in an effort to keep this civil.
He named no one. All good in my book.

consitter
05-03-2012, 12:59 AM
It's not about obligation, it's about Aloha.

That's just my opinion.

Well put, PoiDog.

barefootgypsy
05-03-2012, 01:02 AM
Well put, PoiDog.I'll drink to that.

keliiyama
05-03-2012, 12:12 PM
Just read every post..... just hope it ends well. Andrew Kitakis, just stopped by your shop in Haleiwa. Hung out with Mike. Will be looking for this ukulele when it gets there. Aloha everyone!

808boy
05-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Aloha all,
To the OP, I commend your sincerity in dealing with all that was said and opting to refund the buyer although he had no legal right to expect it.
As for the Luthier in question, I was one of the few who test drove his ukes and I for one was very impressed with them at this price point. The man himself is a pleasure to talk to and deal with. My Custom Tenor in scheduled for this month and he and I have been in contact thru emails and phone calls for the past month to make sure everything is in order.
As far as NO uke will please everyone, absolutely true. Had the opportunity to play a C , and M2 and wasn't impressed for the cost factor involved, but that's MY OPINION.....couldn't figure out what all the hype about them was. Couldn't compare to my Maui which I paid $250. (pawn shop).
As for HMS and their offer, typical of them, GENUINE ALOHA SPIRIT..........................BO................ ........

ukeykondo
05-04-2012, 07:24 AM
I will keep you guys all updated on what happens. I have purchased an digital audio measuring device so that I can really test how the volume compares to other ukes I have. Then after that I will sell it if HMS or anyone else who wants it!

Rick Turner
05-04-2012, 03:43 PM
What are the standards and methods by which you'll test volume? How are you going to standardize the strum intensity? Are you going to measure at a specific distance from the front of the uke? What about player's ear position? Some instruments are almost omni-directional and sound loud to the player, but don't project well, for instance. There's a lot more to "objectively" testing instruments than you may be ready for. To present "data" from a poorly constructed test constitutes a disservice to all. This is a slippery slope. I've done very rigorous testing and recording of guitars, and it's easy to mislead yourself...and thus others...if you don't carefully cover all the parameters and clearly state your test methods.

Paul December
05-04-2012, 03:55 PM
What are the standards and methods by which you'll test volume? How are you going to standardize the strum intensity? Are you going to measure at a specific distance from the front of the uke? What about player's ear position? Some instruments are almost omni-directional and sound loud to the player, but don't project well, for instance. There's a lot more to "objectively" testing instruments than you may be ready for. To present "data" from a poorly constructed test constitutes a disservice to all. This is a slippery slope. I've done very rigorous testing and recording of guitars, and it's easy to mislead yourself...and thus others...if you don't carefully cover all the parameters and clearly state your test methods.

I'm pretty sure simply strumming both ukes the same distance from the mic will prove what he wants to :D

mm stan
05-04-2012, 04:38 PM
Aloha Misteruke,
No Disrespect to you... Just hoping this does not open up a new can of worms...as the results can be controversial from different point of views.. in any ways, Good Luck

itsme
05-04-2012, 05:14 PM
I have purchased an digital audio measuring device so that I can really test how the volume compares to other ukes I have.
Honestly, what does it matter? The buyer wasn't happy with the volume, but that's just one person's opinion.

I really don't see why you feel the need to disprove him/her and going to the point of buying a device to measure sound to do so.

You agreed to take it back and refund the buyer, just let it go and move on. :)

Oh, and as far as any notion that the luthier's name was sullied here, on the contrary. It caused me to seek out more information on him, and I have to say I'm very impressed by everything I've read about his instruments. I'm not in the position to be commissioning a custom, but if I were, he'd definitely be in the running. :)

Rick Turner
05-04-2012, 08:29 PM
And my Ford will kick your Chevy's ass from Monday to Sunday!

And simply playing into a mic does not tell the whole story in any way, shape, or how... That is one point of view established by another point of view. It does NOT show how loud a particular instrument is except at that particular point in space...which may or may not be of prime importance to the player.

OldePhart
05-05-2012, 05:43 AM
Yeah, video comparisons don't mean much at all - especially if you're using a built in microphone even in a good camera - all of the consumer grade cameras use a ton of AGC on the audio. Then you've got the whole factor of are you plucking/strumming exactly the same on both instruments, etc. The simple fact is that we respond to our instruments as we play them so unless you build some kind of robotic device to ensure that both ukes get played exactly the same way a comparison doesn't do more than give you a ballpark estimate.

Tone (timbre) is a little more possible to judge from a good video but you're still dealing with microphone placement, player-instrument feedback syndrome, and about a million other factors. For example, just about every recorded clip I have heard of a Fluke has been so goshawful harsh and jangly that I can't imagine them being as popular as they are, so I can only assume that they sound much different from behind the instrument when you're the one actually playing it.

Hiddencross
05-05-2012, 06:12 AM
unless you build some kind of robotic device to ensure that both ukes get played exactly the same way

This would be the coolest, ever, episode of Mythbusters.

blab
05-05-2012, 06:44 AM
Use Lego to build a strumming device!

ukeykondo
05-05-2012, 07:47 PM
seems like most have had a negative reaction to the idea of a test, so I will refrain from conducting one (thanks for making several very good points, Rick). Probably better to just get the uke in the hands of someone else who has the means to do a good video review.

Note: the misterukulele account has been merged into the ukeykondo account.

ukeykondo
05-08-2012, 08:40 AM
Thanks very much to Hawaiian Music Supply for their very generous offer to buy the uke. However, I was contacted by a very nice gentleman in the Netherlands who really wanted the uke badly, and after all that's happened, I really wanted to sell it to someone who would keep it and appreciate it daily. I am hopeful that the new buyer will post a video review. Anyhow, hopefully this will be a happy ending. BTW, I tried out the instrument again after I received it today and believe even more firmly now that it is a very good instrument, with very nice tone and excellent volume. I think the new buyer will be pleased, and I recommend the luthier who is a stand up guy and a fine craftsman.

ukuhippo
05-08-2012, 08:51 AM
Thanks very much to Hawaiian Music Supply for their very generous offer to buy the uke. However, I was contacted by a very nice gentleman in the Netherlands who really wanted the uke badly, and after all that's happened, I really wanted to sell it to someone who would keep it and appreciate it daily. I am hopeful that the new buyer will post a video review. Anyhow, hopefully this will be a happy ending. BTW, I tried out the instrument again after I received it today and believe even more firmly now that it is a very good instrument, with very nice tone and excellent volume. I think the new buyer will be pleased, and I recommend the luthier who is a stand up guy and a fine craftsman.

Good to hear that the special one got a new home, and in a very nice country I might add.

BTW: The buyer will see his uke spending a lot of time (probably weeks) at the Dutch customs office, and get a nice clearance fee to pay (the reasons why I will never ever buy anything from the USA again).

tattwo
05-08-2012, 09:24 AM
Good to hear that the special one got a new home, and in a very nice country I might add.

BTW: The buyer will see his uke spending a lot of time (probably weeks) at the Dutch customs office, and get a nice clearance fee to pay (the reasons why I will never ever buy anything from the USA again).

I was wondering about that. How do they figure fees?

ukuhippo
05-08-2012, 09:43 AM
I was wondering about that. How do they figure fees?

In the Netherlands you pay for a parcel from the USA (if the value is over 44 euro):

- 'inklaringskosten' (what the postal services bill you for the costs they make to get your parcel through customs): 17 euro
- 'invoerrechten' (import trade tariff) to : 3,2% of the value (in the case of ukuleles, other goods have different rates)
- taxes: 19% of the value of the uke and the shipping costs

e.g. My Makala tenor came from HMS and I had to pay another thirtysomething euro when it arrived (32 and a bit if I remember correctly)

1 Euro about 1.30 U.S. dollars

edit: When I import from indide the European Union, the UK for example, I don't pay any of these costs.

tattwo
05-08-2012, 10:19 AM
In the Netherlands you pay for a parcel from the USA (if the value is over 44 euro):

- 'inklaringskosten' (what the postal services bill you for the costs they make to get your parcel through customs): 17 euro
- 'invoerrechten' (import trade tariff) to : 3,2% of the value (in the case of ukuleles, other goods have different rates)
- taxes: 19% of the value of the uke and the shipping costs

e.g. My Makala tenor came from HMS and I had to pay another thirtysomething euro when it arrived (32 and a bit if I remember correctly)

1 Euro about 1.30 U.S. dollars

edit: When I import from indide the European Union, the UK for example, I don't pay any of these costs.

Ouch! Doesn't Seem Fair :confused:

whepper
05-08-2012, 10:28 AM
Hi! I've bought this uke and I know about the custom fees. Even with the added 25% it's still a superb deal for a custom uke this beautiful. Also the exchange rate between euro's and dollars is in advantage of the euro (for now).

The uke is shipped by express mail, which should get cleared within 24-48 hours. That's why the fee for EMS customs handling fee is 17,0 instead of 12,50. Int. priority mail can take weeks before being handled by customs.

And if it gets delayed in my experience a simple tweet to PostNL (Dutch Post) is sufficient to get it released, as the handling is done by PostNL and not customs. I've imported lots of goods before from the USA, so I know what to expect. :)

zgvap28
05-08-2012, 10:53 AM
No returns = no returns. We all take a risk buying an instrument we haven't played, it goes with the territory. I bought a very expensive ukulele from a highly regarded company from a private seller and hated it. Hated. It.

If you didn't misrepresent it, then it's on him that he doesn't like it. It sounds like you did everything you could have by playing him some stuff over the phone.

My :2cents:" I have read many reviews for uks and ther often one or tw buyers who are not satisfied or showing some sort of buyers remorse. You hav offered to help but he efused. I vote that you let it stand and move on and play your uke.

Kanaka916
05-08-2012, 11:11 AM
I sure this thread has run it's course (133 posts) and since the problem has been resolved by the OP and a successful transaction reached with another buyer. I can safely lock this thread. Thanks for all the inputs/replies.