Paypal ouchies!

pakhan · May 10, 2012

Dear UUers,

I've been doing e-commerce for a little while now but only just spotted a really, really, ridiculous clause under the terms of agreement:

"Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal Seller Protection will not cover your liability for SNAD Claims."- https://cms.paypal.com/al/cgi-bin/?&...Agreement_full

Which means if you send a guitar to anyone, if they think it is counterfeit, if paypal thinks it is counterfeit, they do not need to prove it is counterfeit before they ask the buyer to destroy the item.

So let's recap. They just need to _think_ something is counterfeit and they reserve the right to destroy it. No need for that pesky step of getting some expert to prove it is counterfeit, if someone at paypal thinks it is, then off to the woodchipper it goes.

By the way, paypal is not at all regulated. So you really have no recourse whatever they decide.

ukuraleigh · May 10, 2012

Yeah, it's a crazy rule: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-destroy-2-500-violin-deemed-counterfeit.html

Plainsong · May 10, 2012

Yeah over at Regretsy, there was a story about a "fake" strad violin that Paypal had the buyer destroy. It's a bit learning challenged.

TheCraftedCow · May 10, 2012

I wonder about Untruthful Advertising and PayPal

Is it counterfeit when the maker send ad material to a wholesaler advertising a ukulele as Portugese koa, when it really is Acacia blackwood? Is a company part of the deceit when they do not change
the description? Same situation where the instrument is stated as being 24.7 inches total length , yet comes measuring 31 inches.

Skitzic · May 10, 2012

TheCraftedCow said:
Is it counterfeit when the maker send ad material to a wholesaler advertising a ukulele as Portugese koa, when it really is Acacia blackwood? Is a company part of the deceit when they do not change
the description? Same situation where the instrument is stated as being 24.7 inches total length , yet comes measuring 31 inches.

I think this would fall under the 'item not as described' part of the paypal claim system rather then the counterfeit.

Mandarb · May 10, 2012

pakhan said:
Dear AGFers,

I think you mean UUers not Acoustic Guitar Forum.

1931jim · May 10, 2012

I feel so lucky..........no credit card.......no PayPal.......no problemo.

Dan Uke · May 10, 2012

Still better than other options. Secondly, there isn't too many "counterfeit" claims for ukulele. As a buyer, I am glad they are trying to protect against counterfeits, especially on ebay. One of my favorite show is Pawn Stars and they always bring in an expert to verify authenticity.

As for a Strad Violin, if it was real, I would think there were better ways to sell and receive money. Why didn't they use an auction house?

I know people don't like ebay but if the seller fees were only 2%, many of us would use ebay more? Paypal is a good service in my opinion

I work in banking and letters of credits are used for international transactions and they hardly protect the buyer. If you get burned, you might have to hire an international lawyer.

austin1 · May 10, 2012

Plainsong said:
Yeah over at Regretsy, there was a story about a "fake" strad violin that Paypal had the buyer destroy. It's a bit learning challenged.

I LOVE Regretsy!

Here's the link to the violin debacle if anyone's interested:

http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

Moore Bettah Ukuleles · May 10, 2012

E-commerce is so ripe with fraud I'm very glad that Paypal has such a policy. My bet is that their policy is not exactly as you think it may be. Just because it's "at the sole discretion" does not necessarily mean they are guessing in such matters.

Plainsong · May 10, 2012

nongdam said:
Still better than other options. Secondly, there isn't too many "counterfeit" claims for ukulele. As a buyer, I am glad they are trying to protect against counterfeits, especially on ebay. One of my favorite show is Pawn Stars and they always bring in an expert to verify authenticity.

As for a Strad Violin, if it was real, I would think there were better ways to sell and receive money. Why didn't they use an auction house?

I know people don't like ebay but if the seller fees were only 2%, many of us would use ebay more? Paypal is a good service in my opinion

I work in banking and letters of credits are used for international transactions and they hardly protect the buyer. If you get burned, you might have to hire an international lawyer.

Well if you bothered to read the article, I mean seriously a 30 second google search, you'd see that the violin was known to not be a strad, but was a real violin. It had 100 or more years of age on it, and an appraisal of the probable actual luthier. A lot of violins came with strad name that while fake, were fine instruments. The buyer knew that and just connect his way out of paying. Buyer's remorse.

Since no one knows how to search the internet - here's the article, and they did EXACTLY GUESS.. wrongly.

http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

Mandarb · May 10, 2012

Plainsong said:
Since no one knows how to search the internet - here's the article, and they did EXACTLY GUESS.. wrongly.

http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

Thanks for the link to the article....someone posted it earlier in the thread as well.

austin1 said:
I LOVE Regretsy!

Here's the link to the violin debacle if anyone's interested:

http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

RichM · May 10, 2012

Plainsong said:
A lot of violins came with strad name that while fake, were fine instruments. The buyer knew that and just connect his way out of paying. Buyer's remorse.

I was about to make this point, but Plainsong made it well. For years, many small violin makers put Stradavarius labels in their instruments. It is very well known in the musical instrument and antique community that a Strad label means nothing, and most music shops have a story about someone who found a Strad in their attic and thought they had a multimillion dollar instrument but learned they didn't. To call these counterfeits is disingenuous. Anybody who bought a Strad label violin for $2500 knew darn well it wasn't a Strad, even though it might have very well been a great instrument.

Plainsong · May 11, 2012

RichM said:
I was about to make this point, but Plainsong made it well. For years, many small violin makers put Stradavarius labels in their instruments. It is very well known in the musical instrument and antique community that a Strad label means nothing, and most music shops have a story about someone who found a Strad in their attic and thought they had a multimillion dollar instrument but learned they didn't. To call these counterfeits is disingenuous. Anybody who bought a Strad label violin for $2500 knew darn well it wasn't a Strad, even though it might have very well been a great instrument.

Yeah, that uke lived with a soldier through WWII. It survived Hitler, but couldn't survive Paypal.

Paypal's rule I think is intended to cover fake designer stuff, obviously ripoff scam products. But be careful if you've got something like this violin. It just takes one stupid lackey to apply this rule wrongly, and it's toast.

Teek · May 11, 2012

It was the label of a French luthier, not a Stradivarius. The French label was the one deemed counterfeit. It was still verified as antique and was a lovely instrument. That the incredibly mentally incompetent moron who bought it wouldn't contact the seller directly with a refund request is appalling to me! It is such a simple thing to do. PayPal I expect stupid sh*t from because they prefer to hire imbeciles.

pakhan · May 12, 2012

Moore Bettah Ukuleles said:
E-commerce is so ripe with fraud I'm very glad that Paypal has such a policy. My bet is that their policy is not exactly as you think it may be. Just because it's "at the sole discretion" does not necessarily mean they are guessing in such matters.

It is good that paypal has a protection policy, however, as it is not regulated and it is not subject to regulation, such policies can and have been used without expert opinion. So, there is little or no recourse and they know it. I've moved away from paypal recently onto a service which is registered with a monetary authority.

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Paypal ouchies!

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