Up/Down String Tension?

Paul December

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I asked this question before for my specific situation but possibly was not clear so am rephrasing in a more general way...

:confused: What happens to string tension if I put Tenor or Soprano strings on a Concert?
Which set would increase and which set would decrease the tension?

:) Thanks!
 
It's not completely black and white because some set's tenor strings are lighter than other's soprano strings - in fact, it's not unusal for string tension to vary across the four strings in a single set.

As a general rule, though, tenor strings will be a little heavier gage than soprano strings. Therefore, generally, for any given scale length and pitch the tenor strings would be under higher tension than soprano strings at the same scale and pitch.

John
 
Hello Paul,
My experience with strings. Clear nylon or flourocarbon Gauges.....023 ,024,.025 for A. then.030 to .033 for E.
then .036 to .039 for C. then .25 to .029 for the G string. The scale length as you are aware is the determining factor for tension. Tenor 17 + or -, Concert 14.5to15 + or -, Soprano has some 11.5 (rare) to 13 + or -. These figures are in inches for scale, the gauge figures are in thousanths of an inch. D'Addario has a wonderful web site with lots of info regarding tensions for scale length, which seems to be the most important. As other experienced luthiers have said many times before, try to keep the tension low for solid spruce sounding boards.
Jim
PS: John explained it much better in the above posting than I tried to do.
 
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As a general rule, though, tenor strings will be a little heavier gage than soprano strings.
I'm not at all an authority on the topic, but that does seem very strange to me?

All else being equal (gauge, material, tension, etc):

The longer the string, the lower the frequency.

The heavier the gauge, the lower the frequency.

Since a tenor is trying to pitch the same frequencies, but at a longer length, using heavier gauges would compound the tension dramatically no? To keep the same tension and the same pitch, but at a longer tenor length, I would assume you'd need to use thinner gauge strings not heavier?
 
I'm not at all an authority on the topic, but that does seem very strange to me?
[snip]I would assume you'd need to use thinner gauge strings not heavier?

I agree with Zenin. My thinking goes like:

Suppose you put a same string on a soprano and on a tenor, and tun it to a same tension. Since a tenor has a longer string length, that string will produce a lower frequency. Now, if you want to produce the same frequency (using the same string), the tenor string will have to be pulled at a higher tension. Finally, think of two different strings - Instead of pulling at a higher tension, we can increase the frequency by using a *thinner* string.

In reality, there are many variables so the above discussion may be too simplistic. One thing I noticed is that the tenor tends to be strung at a higher tension than a concert.

My brain hurts.....

Cheers
Chief
 
I'm not at all an authority on the topic, but that does seem very strange to me?

All else being equal (gauge, material, tension, etc):

The longer the string, the lower the frequency.

The heavier the gauge, the lower the frequency.

Since a tenor is trying to pitch the same frequencies, but at a longer length, using heavier gauges would compound the tension dramatically no? To keep the same tension and the same pitch, but at a longer tenor length, I would assume you'd need to use thinner gauge strings not heavier?

The problem is that all else is not equal. On the tenor you are moving a much larger top, which has more mass plus requires more bracing, which means even more mass. Therefore, they generally make tenor strings a thicker gage than soprano strings.

You don't have to take my word for it, though - simply visit the various manufacturer's web sites and you'll see that most list heavier gage strings in tenor sets. Even Worth, which uses the same E and C strings in their CM and CT sets uses heavier gage outer strings in the CT set.

John
 
I agree with Zenin.

I can agree with someone that the moon is made of green cheese but that doesn't make it so... ;)

I've experimented a lot with different gages on tenors and concerts - there is a good reason tenor strings tend to be a bit thicker. Too thin strings on a tenor gives a very unsatisfactory sound.

So...I don't think it's that string makers or anyone else necessarily wants higher tension on a tenor for the sake of having higher tension - I think it's more that it takes a lot more string mass to get the top and bracing moving so then you have to tune to higher tension to get the heavier strings up to pitch.

Interestingly, as someone else (Kirk at Southcoast, if I remember right) has pointed out before, in just about every other instrument having different sizes implies different tunings yet we generally tune soprano, concert, and tenor ukes to the same pitch. It would probably make more sense to tune sopranos up a step (to their original traditional tuning), concerts to C (GCEA), and tenors to Bb. If that were done they would probably have more similar string tensions even given the different gages.

John
 
you'll see that most list heavier gage strings in tenor sets.

Hi John

That is true but when you look at the tension (which we assume as being equal, a crude assumption obviously), the tenor sets *usually have quite a bit higher tension specified.

Just for fun, I looked at JustStrings and they listed

D'Addario J53 Concert set as
0.028 at 8.3 (first number is the diameterin inches; the second is the tension in pounds)
0.032 at 7.1
0.036 at 5.6
0.028 at 7.6

while D'Addario J54 Tenor set as
0.028 at 12.8
0.036 at 11.9
0.035 at 10.6
0.032 at 13.3

As you correctly pointed out, the tenor sets have higher tensions so the strings can drive the larger soundboard.

My brain hurts even more
Chief
 
I've discovered the cure for that - I just gave up thinking... :

Right-O, but then I started thinking about the string tension etc. Believe it or not, I even pulled out my College Physics book (dated 1957) to look this up.

Back to ukulele.

Cheers
Chief
 
More thinking ahead. My friend has a Lanikai Tenor with a pickup (because he wants to be heard) and his main instrument is a tenor banjo. CGDA tuning. He does not want to learn any new chord fingerings for the GCEA tuning so he wants me to figure out the string gauges for the CGDA instead of GCEA. The top A is no problem and I dropped the E to a D. So far all is OK. I thought just swap the 3rd and 4th around. It sounds like no bass is there at all. Any
ideas for perhaps a silver wound on the C. All suggestions gratefully appreciated.
PS: I don't want the bridge to hit the light in the ceiling. What to do what to do.
 
Jim - did you try playing it before changing the strings around and are you talking about no bass acoustically or when plugged in? The reason I ask is that I had a Lanikai acoustic electric that sounded great plugged in but acoustically it was like playing a wet dog. If you didn't try it before swapping the strings around that might just be the sound of it.

John
 
John,
Yes I had played it as a tenor with the amp and it was OK but not outstanding. It was as you say however, a very sad example of a laminated uke. I attributed the sick acoustic sound without the amp to the super abundance of black lacquer which seemed to be deadening the vibrations. At least in my mind, as I tend to like satin finished ukes for better vibrations.
Jim
PS: I don't think it is feasible to try to make the uke into a tenor banjo tuning. I will keep you posted as to my failure or success.
 
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Hello Paul,
Thank you for starting this thread. I have hijacked it. Please accept my apologies. What are friends for if not to send your question off on a different tangent.
Sincerely.
Jim
 
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