To laser or not to laser, that is the question...

Hello, I'm putting this question out there to get opinions on using CO2 lasers in lutherie, and in this case specifically for inlay work. I know there's a lot of it going on in large shops (also CNC work) and I'm kind of on the fence about it - in terms of is it just another quality tool available for the luthier, or is it maybe too mechanical or is something lost in the craft by using so much modern tooling?
I've attached and image of a rosette I created on one of the lasers I use at my day job (I'm and exhibit designer/fabricator) and what I did was do a drawing in Adobe Illustrator, then put the soundboard into the laser and carefully aligned it and - zap, the laser etched away the area where you now see black, and left the design part "high". All I had to do was fill in with black epoxy and scrape down. I like the look, but I'd like it better if I cut the black out of say, ebony and dropped it in. Never the less, it's all done on the laser. Now it's not absolutely simple to do and there is a big learning curve, but still...

So, how do you feel about the laser as a tool for this kind of work? I will add that using the laser for templates, and marking pieces, and tool making is fantastic - but for the final work that was always the purview of the highly skilled/experienced craftsman... ?

My vote is to laser. the things you can do with it are endless. I feel that the use of technology can only push the craftsmanship of the ukulele to another level. I know a lot of shops use it to make sure they get consistent cuts. I love what you did and I would not fret over if it is "Skilled" or not. knowing how to do it, and knowing its limits is also very hard. I also love the fact that you are not leaving it etched and filling it in.
SO...Yeah. I know that my cigar box would not have been possible with "normal" techniques
http://ukeeku.com/2009/12/22/papas-boxes-concert-build-the-box/

I do all my inlay work with one. No filler needed around the inlay, so you can get a nice clean fit. It also allows for much smaller detail work than what you could do by hand. The biggest benefit is the labor savings, plus the ability to do custom inlay work at a fraction of the cost. Here is a photo of the headstock of a uke I built as an auction item to benefit a seeing eye dog foundation, plus a mandolin headstock with my logo.

I agree. Looks beautiful to me. I would love to have a uke with that kind of detail. To me the looks of a hand made uke are still secondary to what kind of sound is coming out of it. Those elements are still very much based on the feel of the creator, not something that can be measured or created with a technological advance. Build on RPA!

If you have it, use it. The tools we use are an extension of our artistic creative energy.

I used to get criticised for post-processing my photographs in Photoshop, levels/curves/exposure/dodging/burning etc. I pointed out that, 30 years ago, I used to do exactly the same things with different shapes of card on sticks in the darkroom when using the enlarger. The tools change, the results can only improve.

Well thanks for the input guys. I have been going overboard with the laser since the day I got here. It is an amazing tool - yet so simple. It's just an X,Y plotter with a hot beam of light. But it has taken a while to understand the subtleties of it and when to use vector or raster art, and setting the power levels. But again, one of the most useful aspects are jig, tool, and template making. I've made a series of arcs, taper guages, angles, bridge marking templates, and on and on. Made a dandy kerfing jig for the band saw, and full templates to build my drum sander. Not to mention it cuts perfectly accurate fret slots. But, the real gem in all of this for me is Adobe Illustrator. That is a tool that is indispensable for me. I can quickly and accurately draw anything I want and print it or send it to the laser. So of course your laser is only as good as the art you send it. By the way, I use a 50 watt Universal CO2 laser, with a 32" x 18" bed. Max work piece height is about 12".

Ukeeku - great wok on the cigar box. That woulda been tough with a wood-buring iron! Plus cedar in the laser smells like gingerbread cookies. A pleasant benefit.

Andrew - Perfect inlay work. Certainly do have to learn how to use the laser well to work on the different materials.

Big K - I know Exactly where you're coming from with the Photoshop challenges. Photographers took a looooong time to switch over to the "dark side". I did darkroom work back in the day, now I do the same work, just a different tool, like you.

What software are you guys using to create the art for the laser?

Even tho we embrace technology to help us do what we do, I love that there will always be craftsmen that do the work by hand - and I will do some by hand as well. Guess there's a fine line where artisans vs. those who need to maximize production make conscious choices in their tools, knowing that both methods are valid.

I'll post some more of the inlay I've done with the laser.

That's an attractive rosette. I'm intrigued with what lasers can do and how they've found their way into the lutherie environment.
I have mixed feelings about lasers and inlay work. On one hand you can achieve results that can be next to impossible to do physically by hand, as you've shown with your rosette. It's also much faster since you're not cutting by hand, which adds an incredible amount of skill (and time). And the fit is indisputable. It seems ideally suited for receptive or intricate designs, especially in a production situation.
The down side, in my eyes at least, is that has that "laser look" that I see all too often on instruments these days and lacks a certain degree of character or soul. As I've mentioned all too often before, when deciding on which process or which finish or which tool to use, choose one that best fits who you are as builder. I think a laser is a legitimate tool, it's just one I wouldn't use. I enjoy inlaying by hand and being able to change a design without a moments hesitation. Some may argue with me, but I feel a bit of pride knowing that I've created all my inlay work by hand. It fits who I am.
(Or maybe I'm just too stoopid or lazy to learn to use a laser!)

I agree with the use of a laser, and if I had one, I'd use it!

As it stands, I don't, so I'll relegate myself to doing "imperfect" inlays by hand. Of course, Martin's Millionth Guitar was done by hand, and its subsequent versions are done by laser. Which would you rather have?

I guess it's like my dream of a Shelby Cobra; I can't get the real thing, so I'll have to settle on a replica (with modern technology like engines, suspensions and brakes, I'll actually have a faster car). No, it doesn't have the mojo, but it's attainable, and the coolness factor is still there, just like the laser inlayed offshoots of the Millionth Guitar.

Lasers make duplication of detail attainable to everyone. That doesn't mean I'm not proud of the fact that when people see my tattoo inlayed on my bass, they're amazed that it's done by hand. Appreciation for artwork still exists.

Aaron

Kekani said:

I'll relegate myself to doing "imperfect" inlays by hand.

Click to expand...

I'd settle for the imperfection of Harvey Leach, Grit Laskin and Larry Robinson any day!

Ive been fooling around with some laser work myself. I started having my headstock logo lasered, then just do an epoxy fill when i do my grain fill. I can also make it any color I want either by tinting the epoxy or first filling with paint... I'm actually really enjoying clear epoxy at the moment.
I have also done a couple ukes with laser work on the back... one was a quote that a customer wanted, and the other was a collaboration with a graphic designer friend... lets see if i have a pic handy... sorry if you cant read the quote, but it is a verse from a song, it was a wedding present from the bride to her husband.

I think that the trick with using things like lasers and cnc mills is to choose your designs carefully. The possibilities of unbelievable intricacy are easily within your grasp, but does that necessarily make for a good design, or just one that looks like a computer and some high cost machine made it. For me your rosette while undeniably perfect falls into that machine made side. As you are asking the question, you may have that same impression.

We all see these types of things hanging on music store walls. Relatively inexpensive Asian made instruments tarted up to catch the eye of the buying public. All good and well if that is your market. But when it comes to a hand made instrument, for me at least I don't want my instruments to look like I was made in some factory.

So to get to the point of the question. If I had a laser or cnc mill, yes I'd be using it. Simply as a time saving and accurate tool. Just like any other tool at my disposal. However I'd be steering away from designs that made it look like a computer and machine fabricated the parts.

Let me say that I agree with most of the comments made about the laser. We have used it extensively in our luthier business and actually have two different machines.

I think it needs to be mentioned that the laser is not for the faint of heart or those that don't like to be precise with drawings or like to use the computer .... if you like to fly by the seat of your pants don't buy a laser.

You must draw everything that your going to cut or engrave or at least purchase the art work. As has been mentioned the capability are incredible but the laser still want do anything more than the operator / draft person has the skill to do. With each material that you laser you have to experiment and determine what settings the laser needs to operate on and if you change lasers ( in our case where we have a large laser and a medium laser with different wattage's ...... things change even though machines are from the same manufacturer ) There are a few more things than just X,Y,Z to consider in using the laser. Lasers actually pulse fire and you can control this..... you can control power, time duration and several other factors like speed control for vectors in curved area's and a number of other enhancing factors. Most modern lasers will also allow 3D of items with the correct software...... they typically use 256 colors of gray scale to determine 3d depth.

We have stopped doing inlay for others, (personally have gotten to a point where it wasn't fun and there are other area's of luthier with the laser that I enjoy more).

Software that is commonly used is Adobe Illustrator, Corel Draw, Autocad, Turbocad, Rhinoceros, Artcam, Aspire and a number of other vector based drawing programs.

As others have said it is a wonderful tool ....... negative to me is the amount of time that it takes to draw and process something. If it's something that is repeatable from day to day you can't compete but if it's a one of a kind the laser may actually take longer than a skilled craftsman. As with all tools you have to choose the best tool for the job.

Materials we have lasered .... name it........ including butter, candles, meat, cake, carrots, wood, plastic, metal, pearl, rock, brick, marble, the list just goes on.

Be glad to help if you have specific questions. For instance ebony is one of the harder items to laser on, for one it is dark in color ( laser is more absorbed ) the other the density. Mirrors are another item that is hard to laser but can be done. We have used white, black and all other kinds of colored acrylic, Corian, imitation stone products, and several others for inlay as well as real pearl, Abalam, mussel shells, abalone shells, wood and several other items.

Attaching some examples.

Blessings,

Kevin

Is the any way to buy or build a laser setup relatively economically? A quick Google search found some kits, but all seem to run into four figures for a complete system large enough to accommodate tenor necks, including from a kit. I already have and use Adobe Illustrator, so that helps I guess.

Moore Bettah Ukuleles said:

I'd settle for the imperfection of Harvey Leach, Grit Laskin and Larry Robinson any day!

Click to expand...

As would I. I like a small amount of imperfection in an inlay- it is like a crooked smile on a beautiful girl, utterly charming.

I have to admit there is a certain look to handmade and machine made. To each his own I guess. I prefer the handmade hands on approach.

Lasers are something that you really don't want a problem with. You need the laser tubes and mirrors and lenses to be focused where they where intended to be aimed. You can cause permanent eye damage, sever body parts, and all kinds of unpleasant things. For this reason I would recommend a purchase of a laser from a known manufacturer for your first machine. There are a number of new entries on the market some good and some not so good. Used is OK but the life of most CO2 laser tubes ( the part that actually fires ) is limited to about 7 years...... some more some less..... in our case with our machine the rebuild is about $1200 per tube other companies are higher some cheaper.

I have seen lasers on the market for as cheap as $3000-$4000 dollars new but they are usually small. Some lasers have pass thru doors that you can open on either side or in the front ( one of our machines does one doesn't). The other problem with lasers is the service.. all commercial lasers use either stepper motors or servo motors for controlling the head/laser final beam output ...... there are just a lot of intricate electronics that can and will go bad. If you choose a company that is slow in sending or having parts when you break down you might as well not have a laser.

Something else that I haven't mentioned is the room that the laser is in. This room needs to be a relatively clean. ( by this I mean it doesn't need to be where there is a lot of sawdust or the potential for dust ) We also have two cnc's and although in many ways the machines operate similar they are different and they must be maintained in separate rooms. One big difference in the cnc and the laser is the fact that with the laser you basically lay whatever you want to mark/cut etc. in the machine sometimes you may have to spread it out and use double sided tape magnets etc. but the laser never physically touches the item. The reverse of this is true with the cnc you must have your item held down firmly or the router will through it off the table. Fixturing is always a challenge with the cnc and is much more involved and sometimes requires as much drawing as the part/item itself that your trying to shape/cut. Rarely are laser parts fixtured in the same way.

One other consideration is the plans/files themselves. Coming from a general contracting background our thoughts from day one have been if we couldn't draw it we probably didn't need to build it. With that said we have had someone drawing on the average at lest 40 hours per week for for more than 4 and 1/2 years. ( That's not one person but several ) Granted we are involved with more than ukulele instruments.

Hope this helps in your decision for or against lasers.

Kevin

I am very open to lasers as the leaves in the fretboard from Kevin Waldron looks fabulous and similar to Devine's work. Since they can cut different materials, I would think it would bring the costs of inlay work down.

There are only a few great inlay artists / luthiers out there and for some buyers, they are too expensive or the luthiers are not taking any more orders.

I think you're thinking too much. If you've got access to one, use it.

Just try to not to do yourself a disservice by doing things that look cheap and nasty.

I just got a laser myself and all I can say is I can't believe I went so long without one. It truly opens up so many possibilities that I never would of thought of before. Like a few people have said, it is just another tool in the workshop like a chisel or saw (only waaaaaay more expensive). And even though it will do the cuts for you, you must still design, draw, layout and inlay by hand. which is still very difficult when you are talking about pieces that are the size of a pen tip. It makes you expand your skill set to include computer drawing and knowing how woods will react to the laser beam. And did I mention they are expensive.
I could definitely go back to my old way of doing things... but I wouldn't want to. It's a real time saver.