Mya Moe V Log

Anyone following this stuff (apart from you Aaron). The latest is very controversial and seems to me a bit like an excuse for not doing it right. The topic is 'dishing' or more accurately described where I am at as 'sinking'. I've talked to a whole bunch of makers over the years and most agree that this is NOT acceptable on any instrument. It's why some of us radius the fronts. I know this is Gordon's story and a documented year in any workshop is interesting. This particular video is however, in my opinion a very unique view.

Why are you calling Gordon out in this forum, Pete? I know I would not appreciate another builder going out of his way to create a new thread just to criticize something I said in another venue. A more appropriate place for this is in the comments section of Mya Moe's You Tube page, IMO.

I'm not calling him out - it is a unique view. Absolutely none of my clients accept a sinking front - I have had just one in my building time and a replacement was requested and delivered. Aaron posts regularly here and he can respond.

What does concern me (and it is a concern I have for this company who is doing a sterling work in small production outside of Hawaii) and it is something I have fallen foul of, is that once something is published either in print or video, sooner or later you end up being hung by it: I quote, "You say you (refering to me) can carve a heel in 5 minutes and yet you can't deliver a uke on time..." If anything, my post is a caution more than anything else. Great that the thoughts of a luthier are being posted. Be careful what you post is all. I rather suspect that some who see Char's latest video is going to completely misconstrue what he says and go looking for sinking fronts in his instruments... good job the series hasn't gone viral yet

I've just commented on the Video at YouTube. This stuff needs to be up for debate since it is out there and like carbon fibre rods in ukulele necks, has the potential to become part of a quirky ukulele 'mythology'.

That's not Char. It's Gordon. Char is much better looking.

Thanks - corrected. It's 1.00 am in the morning here and I am just about ready to hit the sack...

I hope we can have a sensible debate about this. As one who has spilled his entire brain load out on YouTube I have some experience with 'regretted' comments.

Gordon is one hundred percent correct. Your comment is surprisingly unprofessional.

Gordon is one hundred percent correct.

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To be clear, I'm Michael. Gordon is the co-owner of Mya Moe who is more than half way through an informative and entertaining year of weekly videos on You Tube. Char is Gordon's wife and partner. I met both at NY Uke Fest a couple of years ago, and they are very nice people.

As for sunken tops, I agree that they are unacceptable. But Gordon did say in his video that they are extremely rare at Mya Moe, but when one comes up he replaces the instrument. So I'm not sure what the controversy is here.

mzuch said:

Why are you calling Gordon out in this forum, Pete? I know I would not appreciate another builder going out of his way to create a new thread just to criticize something I said in another venue. A more appropriate place for this is in the comments section of Mya Moe's You Tube page, IMO.

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mmmmmmm. not sure as to your agenda in making this initial post but this is bad form however one looks at it. 'An excuse for not doing it right?' Clearly you know very little of their rigorous approach to design, construction and customer service. In Australia we call this the Tall Poppy Syndrome. MM have built close to 1000 instruments and have had VERY FEW occasions where dishing has occured on the face of their ukuleles. Further, what Gordon alluded to in his reference to old guitars is a commonly held opinion.

If you read the post carefully and relate it to the video Gordon doesn't admit to this fault and I don't accuse him of it. I have issue with statements made in the public domain that appear to tell a story. Bellying of fronts happens in old guitars, sinking in old ukulele. There are a huge number of other factors that cause it in guitars and because old guitars tend to sound good on the whole we attribute stuff like this to the good sound. Noone to my knowledge has proved this - it is just accpeted as a fact. Don't know why it should be so because early Gibson guitars had deliberately domed fronts and Larson Bros made spherical stressed fronts. These were not flaws or faults but design decisions. Martin guitars shaped their braces for a domed front but glued them onto a flat surface - some fronts sprung to a radius and others did not. It was certainly recognised that buiding this into an instrument was a good idea and not to be anticipated as an accident of time. Because something is commonly held as true it doesn't make it so and I've seen enough vintage instruments and talked to enough collectors and builders to know this.

If enough people talk about something as being one thing then it is accepted that it is. Guitars also are not ukulele. I have no idea why so many Martin sopranos I have seen have flat fronts. The tops are thin and they do not appear to have been built on a radius dish. And yet I have seen countless vintage Hawaiian instruments with distorted fronts.

I've addressed the question on YouTube... I have no agenda except to debunk the myths that are in this business... dovetail necks, French polish finish, the absolute superiority of hide glue. Out of context these things often sound ridiculous to me.

Unless intentionally built into an instrument bellying is hardly desirable when the usual endgame is a neck reset or bridge rebuild. Sinking occurs because the front is not properly braced or is too thin to support the torsion caused by the string tension. My instruments have stressed fronts so the belly is already there - most builders do this.

As I said, I made some inappropriate comments in my videos which I corrected. Gordon is very brave doing this unscripted series. I applaud it. Caution is required when making any statement. Believe me.

Gordon and Mya Moe have their finger on the pulse of the online uke community. I'm fairly certain that this video was a response to some fairly extreme reaction to this subject that have recently occurred. The statements that started this thread seem to be very far from the statements made in the video. I've heard many luthiers talk about the balance between building light and responsive while maintaining structural integrity. I believe Gordon was simply saying that "dishing" occasionally happens despite efforts to avoid it. As people who love to play acoustic instruments it is something we are going to be exposed to. It is possible that a uke can be stable and have a slight amount of dishing and from my experience will likely sound fantastic. Of course, Gordon was saying they build to avoid it and it rarely happens in a mya moe. Pete seems to be suggesting that Mya Moe is making excuses for not doing things correctly and I think that is a huge misrepresentation from what is actually said in the vid.

I do appreciate the topic addressed in the video and what i think Pete is asking about. I'm a little different then most, but I honestly don't look at ukes as lifetime investments. I spent $1400 on my computer and I be happy to get 5 to 6 years out of it. $300 on an iPhone that will be out of date in 2 years. Neither one of these things bring me nearly as much joy as my ukes for comparable money. Now I fully expect a luthier to build to last, but I appreciate pushing the envelope to deliver the goods. If that meant it needed some work in 10 years to repair a crack, fix a brace reset a neck... I'm cool with that.

Pete Howlett said:

Anyone following this stuff (apart from you Aaron). The latest is very controversial and seems to me a bit like an excuse for not doing it right. The topic is 'dishing' or more accurately described where I am at as 'sinking'. I've talked to a whole bunch of makers over the years and most agree that this is NOT acceptable on any instrument. It's why some of us radius the fronts. I know this is Gordon's story and a documented year in any workshop is interesting. This particular video is however, in my opinion a very unique view.

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"Anyone following this stuff."

I mean, it's not even subtle. This stuff? If that's not a derogatory opening line I've never heard one. Actually, this forum has a very large representation of MM owners, so the answer is yes...many are following these clips.

"seems to me a bit like an excuse for not doing it right."

This also is an obvious calling out of MM as builders who make excuses for not doing it right. IE...you are directly - again, not even subtle - implying shoddy workmanship. As the previous poster said, Gordon Mayer is very much in touch with owners of his instruments and is quick to respond to any queries, no matter how important or trivial. He also said how rare such an occurence is in relation to his instruments and the few occasions it has happened, they have been replaced with due haste.

"in my opinion a very unique view"

your later posts contradict this entirely as you recognise it is a shared opinion by many.

You can dress it up all you like as you have since done. For what it's worth I don't disagree with your remarks re the technical aspects of construction to minimise the likelihood of such issues arising, and yes, I would be concerned should one of my ukes start dishing around the bridge. But the premise of your original post is a total misrepresentation of some things that were stated in the video and a thinly veiled put-down of a premier builder.

I'm trying to understand what this thread is actually about. It seems like Pete didn't really watch Gordon's video.

jwieties said:

Gordon and Mya Moe have their finger on the pulse of the online uke community. I'm fairly certain that this video was a response to some fairly extreme reaction to this subject that have recently occurred. The statements that started this thread seem to be very far from the statements made in the video. I've heard many luthiers talk about the balance between building light and responsive while maintaining structural integrity. I believe Gordon was simply saying that "dishing" occasionally happens despite efforts to avoid it. As people who love to play acoustic instruments it is something we are going to be exposed to. It is possible that a uke can be stable and have a slight amount of dishing and from my experience will likely sound fantastic. Of course, Gordon was saying they build to avoid it and it rarely happens in a mya moe. Pete seems to be suggesting that Mya Moe is making excuses for not doing things correctly and I think that is a huge misrepresentation from what is actually said in the vid.

I do appreciate the topic addressed in the video and what i think Pete is asking about. I'm a little different then most, but I honestly don't look at ukes as lifetime investments. I spent $1400 on my computer and I be happy to get 5 to 6 years out of it. $300 on an iPhone that will be out of date in 2 years. Neither one of these things bring me nearly as much joy as my ukes for comparable money. Now I fully expect a luthier to build to last, but I appreciate pushing the envelope to deliver the goods. If that meant it needed some work in 10 years to repair a crack, fix a brace reset a neck... I'm cool with that.

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Very well put

didgeridoo2 said:

I'm trying to understand what this thread is actually about. It seems like Pete didn't really watch Gordon's video.

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Gordon Mayer says explicitly that dishing should not be expected on any instrument, but that if it happens and a customer is unhappy, the instrument would be repaired or replaced for the owner as quickly as possible. I too, am curious as to the point of this thread. The OP draws attention to something supposedly 'very controversial'. I fail to see any controversy whatsoever. All Gordon Mayer does is draw attention to some differing views about dishing and then offer his own, which seems to me to be very much in line with the OP's.

So...the purpose of the thread = I'm a better builder than you = Sh#tful

Pete Howlett said:

I've addressed the question on YouTube... I have no agenda except to debunk the myths that are in this business... dovetail necks, French polish finish, the absolute superiority of hide glue. Out of context these things often sound ridiculous to me.

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It really sounds like your agenda is bashing your competition. A dove tail joint is superior from a joinery perspective, and sunken, dished, or otherwise distorted tops, although covered by the mya-moe warranty, are not always quantifiably negative. Other "myths" you note seem curious in this context as mya-moe do not use french polish or hide glue.

As a future MM owner, I asked Gordon about dishing bc I'm ordering a softer soundboard wood. He told me that of 700 completed builds, one had dishing enough that the owner brought it to his attention. He replaced the uke, just as he said he would on the video. So, he did what he said he would. Imagine that...an honest man is still out there.

As a customer, there's nothing more that can be done for us, the ultimate "repair" is replacement. And, Gordon will do it even if its only the owners perspective, even if he sees it otherwise. Amazing. Genuine.

The science behind it means nothing to an owner, just as the science behind a gasoline engine means nothing to a guy with a key in his hand and a pregnant wife in the passenger seat.

For what it's worth, Gordon's video went over like a case of champagne on New Years eve on the Kanilea bellying thread. They loved it!

Player/owner perspective only. Okay, quants can now resume their haberdashery regarding the fine art of bracing.

You know everybody can assume anything, unless you have it in your hands and even then so can say for absoultely sure that dishing is from too thin tops and insufficent bracing and that could be it, who knows...has anybody ever thought of the particular piece of wood for it's structurial integrity...you know all woods are different and have a different failing point...just to add another opinion in the pot..Who knows and can you blame things on unseen or unknown factors ....or unknown origin of failure. It could be any of the any of reasons aforementioned or not...something else? you gotta sometimes treat every individual case, individually. Every piece of wood has their own unique chararistics and tensile strength..even from the same tree but different parts or cuts..
Could it be workmanship or material failure(meaning wood's strength) at different thickness.. Speculation always starts great debates and opinions
that we all can learn from and maybe find soluations in the future... no particular builder will say that it can't happen to them until this is resolved...

Anyone interested in this thread should probably take the time to actually watch the video in question, so here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fxmW-rMz-k&feature=player_embedded

IMO I don't think Gordon was trying to say that dishing should be expected in ukuleles. When he is explaining what dishing is and he picks up a uke to explain, he says "you won't see it on this instrument. It is not seen very often. Certainly very, very rarely on our instruments."

A couple seconds later he says "We want that" but that is in reference to having a light and responsive top... not him saying that we want dishing in instrument tops. Right after that he says that you don't want the instrument to structurally fail.

He then goes on to say how dishing is subjective and qualitative rather than quantitative. When people talk about dishing being a problem it is always "my instrument has excessive dishing" or something like that. I think his point was that it's not scientific i.e. a dish of a certain depth is o.k. but once you go past that depth it is "excessive" it's subjective. For some, slight dishing might be o.k., for others, it might not be o.k. I think he was just making the point that it's not precise.

He then brings up vintage guitars, in which many enthusiasts of those instruments look for dishing as a sign of an instrument that was built light and responsive, and that in the opinion of many, a vintage instrument from that period that does not have dishing was "overbuilt". He was just using this as an example of an idea and perception of dishing that is common. I don't believe he was using it as a justification for dishing being acceptable or anything like that.

He then says that at Mya-Moe they hand voice every instrument and they do attempt to take each instrument to the very edge of responsiveness because they don't want instruments that are overbuilt, but he never says that they endeavor to under build instruments.

In the video he says that IN HIS OPINION a little dishing is o.k. meaning if it was HIS instrument that had a little dishing, HE would be o.k. with it. It's not something that alarms HIM. He says that they rarely see it in their instruments and it does not PERSONALLY bother HIM. Meaning that if it was his instrument, he wouldn't be that alarmed about it. He further says that anything excessive is not acceptable and that they will happily replace any instrument that develops excessive dishing.

The final point he makes is that IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HE THINKS, it matters what the owner thinks. He will share his opinion on what he thinks is acceptable, but if the owner is not happy, they will do anything and everything (repair or replace) to make the customer happy.

I think the main point of this thread, and I may be wrong, is that guitars and ukes do not sound good because they are old and have bellied, but in spite of the fact that they have bellied.

I have seen this problem many times over the years and sometimes these things need to be repaired. I did a mid 60's Martin D-18 for a client one time that had bellied so bad, the intonation was off and the bridge was in danger of flying off. The owner was not concerned about this and thought the guitar sounded great. To my ear it sounded OK but not great. After a thorough inspection of the inside, the top braces were loose under the bridge and the rosewood bridge patch was very deformed. It took some convincing but the client agreed to have all the braces on the top replaced. This meant removing the back and starting over with the top braces. After the over-haul was completed and the back replaced, the guitar sounded like a million dollars and the client was more than pleased. To this day the guitar is still a great player. Had it been left alone, it would have continued to self destruct.

Thank you smiling panda on the video in question... On Gordon's Business and Philosophy on ukes...I guess it is a trade off....and a risk...
For me I'd prefer a uke that has been built with the upmost thought on creating the best possible sound even though it may fail in the future.. and
with Gordon's promise to do right if it fails is all I need to hear to purchase another Mya Moe from him...