Violin Varnish?

What is violin varnish? Is it just shellac with additives, ready to use, or is it something altogether different. Anybody use it? Thanks.

Pandora's box, can of worms...

Yes, no, maybe...

Google it.

And then you'll really get confused!

The most important thing to remember when finishing violins is to do it on a full moon, in a leap year, by candle light surrounded by chanting virgins in velvet (oh yer) with HEAPS of dry ice fog swirling around you all.

That is the only way I know how to achieve that Cremona magic...

Okay, it seems I have indeed opened up a Pandora's Box. Beau, what should I be wearing when the chanting virgins arrive?

But seriously, what I'm really wondering is whether folks dissolve their own shellac flakes, or buy some ready mixed. What kind / color / brand? What kind of alcohol and oil to use?

Beau, what kind of alcohol should I be drinking when the chanting virgins arrive? Full moon isn't to occur for a while, so we have time to discuss it.

hmgberg said:

Okay, it seems I have indeed opened up a Pandora's Box. Beau, what should I be wearing when the chanting virgins arrive?

But seriously, what I'm really wondering is whether folks dissolve their own shellac flakes, or buy some ready mixed. What kind / color / brand? What kind of alcohol and oil to use?

Beau, what kind of alcohol should I be drinking when the chanting virgins arrive? Full moon isn't to occur for a while, so we have time to discuss it.

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I try to drink good red wine, and tend not to wear anything, just in case one of the virgins has gotten into the wine. Any oil is good, but not lavender as it causes all the virgins to fall asleep

In the first place, "real" violin varnish is NOT shellac based. It's an oil varnish, not a spirit varnish. Big difference. Look it up... Spirit varnishes have been used on cheap fiddles, but it's not the varnish of choice for most violin makers.

Secondly, why not ask the question on a violin makers' forum? You don't go onto an auto forum to ask about horses...

And lavender oil, aka "spike oil" IS one of the possible ingredients of violin varnish.

Seriously, go elsewhere for info on violin varnish. This is not a repository of knowledge on the subject.

My horse says he prefers the hue that lavender oil give to his oil varnishes.

Hey, Rick - When I first posted, I thought "violin varnish" names a kind of shellac-based substance that is used on all kinds of instruments, a prepared substance to be used in French Polishing in other words. Here's why: I had seen, on an ukulele luthier's site, an up-charge for violin varnish. I recalled having read that Gibson used violin varnish on their mandolins in the 1920s. I had also looked up "shellac" on a supplier's website, and while it listed a number of options (colors) for shellac flakes, they also listed on the same page a few kinds of "violin varnish," stating they contained shellac and were soluble in alcohol. I have also been reading and watching videos about French Polishing with shellac and understand that one dissolves shellac flakes in alcohol and applies that solution along with some oil.

In short, though I was confused about just what "violin varnish" is, I was wondering about its use for ukuleles, not violins. I do see on the net that there are two types of "violin varnish," as you have noted, oil-based and spirit-based, but I'm not interested in "violin varnish" per se, I'm interested in shellac and French Polishing. It seems that people have varying ideas about what kind of alcohol to use, what kind of oil and when to use it, and what kind of shellac to use. Again, when I saw "violin varnish" on the shellac page of a distributors site, I thought perhaps it was a particular formula or combination of shellac, oil, and alcohol for French Polishing.

In another thread on this forum people were talking about using Zinsser shellac, but only as a sealer coat and colorant under lacquer. I don't suppose it is a good grade to use as a final finish, but maybe it is.

Rick Turner said:

In the first place, "real" violin varnish is NOT shellac based. It's an oil varnish, not a spirit varnish. Big difference. Look it up... Spirit varnishes have been used on cheap fiddles, but it's not the varnish of choice for most violin makers.

Secondly, why not ask the question on a violin makers' forum? You don't go onto an auto forum to ask about horses...

And lavender oil, aka "spike oil" IS one of the possible ingredients of violin varnish.

Seriously, go elsewhere for info on violin varnish. This is not a repository of knowledge on the subject.

Click to expand...

hmgberg said:

Hey, Rick - When I first posted, I thought "violin varnish" names a kind of shellac-based substance that is used on all kinds of instruments, a prepared substance to be used in French Polishing in other words. Here's why: I had seen, on an ukulele luthier's site, an up-charge for violin varnish. I recalled having read that Gibson used violin varnish on their mandolins in the 1920s. I had also looked up "shellac" on a supplier's website, and while it listed a number of options (colors) for shellac flakes, they also listed on the same page a few kinds of "violin varnish," stating they contained shellac and were soluble in alcohol. I have also been reading and watching videos about French Polishing with shellac and understand that one dissolves shellac flakes in alcohol and applies that solution along with some oil.

In short, though I was confused about just what "violin varnish" is, I was wondering about its use for ukuleles, not violins. I do see on the net that there are two types of "violin varnish," as you have noted, oil-based and spirit-based, but I'm not interested in "violin varnish" per se, I'm interested in shellac and French Polishing. It seems that people have varying ideas about what kind of alcohol to use, what kind of oil and when to use it, and what kind of shellac to use. Again, when I saw "violin varnish" on the shellac page of a distributors site, I thought perhaps it was a particular formula or combination of shellac, oil, and alcohol for French Polishing.

In another thread on this forum people were talking about using Zinsser shellac, but only as a sealer coat and colorant under lacquer. I don't suppose it is a good grade to use as a final finish, but maybe it is.

Click to expand...

Rick is correct, real violins have an oil based varnish, not a shellac base. Spirit varnish or shellac, was used on a cheaper trade violins coming into the country years ago. These finishes were, for the most part, sprayed on, not French polished. Rarely do I see a trade violin with a oil varnish. Oil varnishes are as varied as the luthiers using them.

If you mix your own shellac flakes and learn to French polish, you can get a beautiful finish, but this finish is delicate and must be maintained from time to time. Anything alcohol or water based will mar the finish. The Zinsser shellacs have stuff added to them that makes them much more durable and if done right, they can also be sprayed on or French polished. If you want to use shellac, I would recommend the Zinsser products.

Violin varnish:

2 shots of rum
1 shot of bourbon
1-1/2 oz. apple cider
Squeeze of lemon

Drink. Mix. Repeat.

Delicious.

BlackBearUkes said:

Rick is correct, real violins have an oil based varnish, not a shellac base. Spirit varnish or shellac, was used on a cheaper trade violins coming into the country years ago. These finishes were, for the most part, sprayed on, not French polished. Rarely do I see a trade violin with a oil varnish. Oil varnishes are as varied as the luthiers using them.

If you mix your own shellac flakes and learn to French polish, you can get a beautiful finish, but this finish is delicate and must be maintained from time to time. Anything alcohol or water based will mar the finish. The Zinsser shellacs have stuff added to them that makes them much more durable and if done right, they can also be sprayed on or French polished. If you want to use shellac, I would recommend the Zinsser products.

Click to expand...

Really, the Zinsser stuff from the hardware store is fine for a finish! Thanks for the info, Duane. It seems that everyone has a different recipe and differing application techniques for FP shellac. Much of the time, although not always, the demonstrator uses oil in the application, I suppose as some kind of lubricant and/or to keep the shellac from drying too quickly?

Anyway, this is the page I was looking at:

http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?lang=ENG&view=SearchResult

and I got pretty confused. I searched shellac and saw "violin varnish" and assumed it was a French Polishing concoction. I am a painter (artist painter that is) in real life, and have used many Kremer products over the years. I have not used Kremer's shellac in any form, although I have used Zinsser shellac in my paintings, both as a sealer and as a layer between different pigments. It sticks to almost anything and almost anything sticks to it.

hmgberg said:

Really, the Zinsser stuff from the hardware store is fine for a finish! Thanks for the info, Duane. It seems that everyone has a different recipe and differing application techniques for FP shellac. Much of the time, although not always, the demonstrator uses oil in the application, I suppose as some kind of lubricant and/or to keep the shellac from drying too quickly?

Anyway, this is the page I was looking at:

http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?lang=ENG&view=SearchResult

and I got pretty confused. I searched shellac and saw "violin varnish" and assumed it was a French Polishing concoction. I am a painter (artist painter that is) in real life, and have used many Kremer products over the years. I have not used Kremer's shellac in any form, although I have used Zinsser shellac in my paintings, both as a sealer and as a layer between different pigments. It sticks to almost anything and almost anything sticks to it.

Click to expand...

French polishing using the traditional techniques takes a bit of practice to do well. Not everyone uses oil for the application. The oil is used sparingly and only to help the application pad from sticking to the surface while the shellac is applied. Once the shellac is on and starting to harden, the oil is spirited off. There are many good articles and books on this subject, some of which can be had through the Guild of American Luthiers organization.

As a artist painter myself, I have never used shellac in any process, just the older tried and true methods of oil painting. Most of my artist materials I use I buy through Daniel Smith or Utrecht companies.

I have never finished a uke with a can of worms. I use a can of nitrogenated resins and rosins and turpenes. It takes weeks to cure, but it has the pleochromatic sheen of early Italian violins. I cook it at home, which is sketchy but fun. I also use shellac, which is not varnish. I dissolve flakes in Everclear.

oudin said:

I have never finished a uke with a can of worms. I use a can of nitrogenated resins and rosins and turpenes. It takes weeks to cure, but it has the pleochromatic sheen of early Italian violins. I cook it at home, which is sketchy but fun. I also use shellac, which is not varnish. I dissolve flakes in Everclear.

Click to expand...

The Dude abides!

There is a lengthy tutorial at the Milburn guitars site. I like it because they cover all the steps very thoroughly. I have read many descriptions on how to apply shellac, or to French polish. And all of them differ in the details, and most of them don't cover the whole process. Therefore, I would recommend the one I found on Milburn. You can definitely use bits of other methods if you like, after a few ukes you'll have your own process.

One thing I found elsewhere is to use an eraser cut to an angle and wrapped in cloth instead of the muneca around the bridge and fretboard end. But the muneca everywhere else. And you can go over the surface with Liberon Burnishing cream after you're done to get an even shine.

Good luck / Sven

And I need to look into that with the walnut oil.

The best way i've found to apply a French Polish, is to pay someone else to do it

Just bought me some Bulls eye and look forward to using it

The documented and often cited violin varnish recipes of 1710 and 1704 are both spirit-based. The 1710 recipe uses a combination of shellac, mastic, sandarac, frankincense and amber, which are dissolved in alcohol under mild heat. The (original) 1704 recipe is a simple mixture of shellac in alcohol with slight amounts of elemi and spike oil (lavender oil) added.

We've used both of these recipes and have since developed our own variations.

Sven said:

There is a lengthy tutorial at the Milburn guitars site. I like it because they cover all the steps very thoroughly. I have read many descriptions on how to apply shellac, or to French polish. And all of them differ in the details, and most of them don't cover the whole process. Therefore, I would recommend the one I found on Milburn. You can definitely use bits of other methods if you like, after a few ukes you'll have your own process.

One thing I found elsewhere is to use an eraser cut to an angle and wrapped in cloth instead of the muneca around the bridge and fretboard end. But the muneca everywhere else. And you can go over the surface with Liberon Burnishing cream after you're done to get an even shine.

Good luck / Sven

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Thanks, Sven. I'll check out the site. I had seen the bit about the eraser somewhere before.

I know that ages ago bee propolis was often used on violins.