Scale length question

oldetymey

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
189
Reaction score
0
Location
Toledo, Ohio
A soprano ukes scale length is double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret right? So if you wanted to make a shorter scale. Say a 6 or 8 fret uke how would you figure length? Would it simply be double whatever length from the nut to the body joint? Or is it more complicated than that?
Thanks in advance for any help
 
The theoretical 12th fret is your center point. If you want a 6-8 fret neck, you still have to calculate based on 12 and then once the math is done just don't install them. The Stewart Mac fret calculator should do the rest for you.
 
be careful with the stew-mac scale-length calculator because it only gives you a ballpark figure of the necessary compensation for each string. i know first hand as i build this stuff. i notice that the shorter the scale you go, the trickier to get the proper compo.i have pretty much fixed this by a lot of trial and error. if you want the specific figures, send me a PM i'll be happy to help you.

John
 
The theoretical 12th fret is your center point. If you want a 6-8 fret neck, you still have to calculate based on 12 and then once the math is done just don't install them. The Stewart Mac fret calculator should do the rest for you.

I see what your saying, but I was thinking a shortened neck to do a mini uke so where does that center point go? would it always be where the neck joins the body regardless of number of frets?
 
be careful with the stew-mac scale-length calculator because it only gives you a ballpark figure of the necessary compensation for each string. i know first hand as i build this stuff. i notice that the shorter the scale you go, the trickier to get the proper compo.i have pretty much fixed this by a lot of trial and error. if you want the specific figures, send me a PM i'll be happy to help you.

John

I willl do that thanks!
 
The halfway point along the length of the string (measured from nut to bridge) will always give you the octave above the open string. That is why the twelfth fret can be found there, because in our Western Scale we divide music into twelve tones. Should you want to make an instrument that misses out on a few of those notes (the ones that don't fall "naturally" into a key) then you can follow the example of an Appalachian dulcimer or a strum-stick.

However, if I understand you right, you want to build a smaller Uke with only 8 frets, right? Fine, a lot of open chord work doesn't need the higher frets. But it is a question of physics. You will have to arrange your neck in such a way that the midway point along the string, the theoretical 12th fret, is somewhere on the main body of the instrument. In other words, your neck will be a lot shorter and stumpy than usual and the body longer than usual. I have an instrument that is like that: a Viola Braghuesa

As you can see from the photo, the neck is shorter and only has ten frets. Is this the kind of thing you meant? Or am I misreading your request here?
 
No Im just explaining it poorly Im not trying to build a uke with a soprano scale and 8 frets just a uke with 8 frets. I only used the 12 th fret thing as an example to try to explain what I was considering. Im looking for 8 frets and a shorter scale length. Just tryin to figure what that length would be. But i think i understand it now. Your responses were very helpful thanks!
 
As can be seen by Weerpool's drawing. You can have an eight fretted Uke, but for the strings when fretted to be in tune with any scale we'd recognise, the body will have to be longer than a usual uke and the neck shorter. There is no way around this, it's physics, not carpentry ;)
 
No Im just explaining it poorly Im not trying to build a uke with a soprano scale and 8 frets just a uke with 8 frets. I only used the 12 th fret thing as an example to try to explain what I was considering. Im looking for 8 frets and a shorter scale length. Just tryin to figure what that length would be. But i think i understand it now. Your responses were very helpful thanks!

I think you mean an 8 fret neck. So the neck/body joint would be at the 8th fret. The scale length is irrelevant to the neck/body joint but it will affect where the bridge position is. Move the neck joint to the 8th fret and the bridge would move toward the butt end by the same amount. For a 13.75" soprano scale the distance from the 8th to 12th fret is about 1.79" so the bridge would move by that amount. To move the bridge back to a more normal position on the body you'd have to shorten the scale to about 11.96". This is all with the same size body
Or, you could build a body style that's longer in the upper bout. Like a 12fret 000 guitar vs a 14fret 000 guitar body. Same scale length but the 12fret has a longer body in the upper bout so the neck joint can be different. Or even more radical would be a Kona style guitar.... http://www.guitarbench.com/2010/09/12/1920s-weissenborn-kona-style-2-guitar-database/ Short 7fret neck and long long body

I wouldn't go much below 13" scale length or you can have problems staying in tune...definitely not below 12" You might have to look at a non-traditional body shape to get your 8 fret neck and a reasonable scale length
 
Be sure you're not confusing soprano "scale length" and soprano "size". And that you want 8 frets "to the body"??

If you start with a soprano scale length of 13-5/8" (and attempt to retain that scale length), you move the 8th fret to the body, well then of course your bridge would be off the bottom end of the uke! So if you shorten the neck to 8 frets to the body, then you must shorten the "scale length" of the strings so that the bridge ends up in a useable location.

So, you could... have a soprano "size" body with a shorter scale length and only 8 frets - (and if you push the bridge down as far as you dare) it could be somewhere around a 12-3/8" scale.

Could be done. Could be hard to play. Could sound crummy. Or, you might just like it.

scale length.JPG
 
Be sure you're not confusing soprano "scale length" and soprano "size". And that you want 8 frets "to the body"??

If you start with a soprano scale length of 13-5/8" (and attempt to retain that scale length), you move the 8th fret to the body, well then of course your bridge would be off the bottom end of the uke! So if you shorten the neck to 8 frets to the body, then you must shorten the "scale length" of the strings so that the bridge ends up in a useable location.

So, you could... have a soprano "size" body with a shorter scale length and only 8 frets - (and if you push the bridge down as far as you dare) it could be somewhere around a 12-3/8" scale.

Could be done. Could be hard to play. Could sound crummy. Or, you might just like it.

View attachment 45868


Bingo....thats the pic that explains what I was thinking of....sorry for the confusion guys
Im not a builder so it was kind of hard to explain. In essence I was wondering if a tiny playable uke shorter than a soprano could be done. And if there was a basic formula of the scale would be. This answers my question totally. Thanks all for your patience and knowledge!
 
These have a 7 inch scale and are playable (just):

8017147914_e20835eca3.jpg

8017150094_7f4e4b46df.jpg


But note that they are 12 frets to the body join.

Sven makes excellently playable piccolo ukes which are around an 11 inch scale I think. 7 inches is just for fun, though these are surprisingly loud and at least recognisable as musical.

Sound clip: https://www.box.com/s/v0npyo7maq5wu6uzv71m

(and sorry for the squeaks - a scale this short is, well, challenging).
 
A soprano ukes scale length is double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret right? So if you wanted to make a shorter scale. Say a 6 or 8 fret uke how would you figure length? Would it simply be double whatever length from the nut to the body joint? Or is it more complicated than that?
Thanks in advance for any help

A soprano ukes scale length is double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret right? So if you wanted to make a shorter scale. Say a 6 or 8 fret uke how would you figure length? Would it simply be double whatever length from the nut to the body joint? Or is it more complicated than that?
Thanks in advance for any help

Okay. Look at a ukulele. Look at the span between the nut and the bridge - halfway along that span is the 12th fret. If you want to make a smaller scale instrument, your strings will still have a midpoint no matter how many frets you install. As the scale gets smaller, the frets simply get closer together. The frets are specific divisions of the scale length so smaller scale leads to smaller divisions... the frets are closer together.

I'm not sure why you want only 8 frets. And is it safe to assume you mean the first 8? Could your issue be resolved by making the instrument whatever scale you wish (this will either determine the size, or be determined by the size of the instrument you want), and then using a fret calculator to determine where the frets go? Maybe sketch it out to make sure you don't go too small to fit your fingers between the frets? If you only want 8, then just put in 8.

Titch the Clown has built enough short scale instruments to have dealt with this, perhaps, as you are envisioning it. I'm sorry if I've missed what you were originally asking.

Tobin

Ooops. Didn't see the post where you said you had your answers before I posted this one.
 
Last edited:
These have a 7 inch scale and are playable (just):

8017147914_e20835eca3.jpg

8017150094_7f4e4b46df.jpg


But note that they are 12 frets to the body join.

Sven makes excellently playable piccolo ukes which are around an 11 inch scale I think. 7 inches is just for fun, though these are surprisingly loud and at least recognisable as musical.

Sound clip: https://www.box.com/s/v0npyo7maq5wu6uzv71m

(and sorry for the squeaks - a scale this short is, well, challenging).



Those are totally cool and just what I was thinking of.........So to go back to the original question if you say those are a 7 inch scale, then that makes the string length 7 inches from nut to bridge with the midpoint being where the neck joins the body correct? Weerpool had posted one like that as well but now I dont see his post for some reason.....but yeah those are pretty neat, and just as a fun thing they dont sound half bad either
 
Those are totally cool and just what I was thinking of.........So to go back to the original question if you say those are a 7 inch scale, then that makes the string length 7 inches from nut to bridge with the midpoint being where the neck joins the body correct? Weerpool had posted one like that as well but now I dont see his post for some reason.....but yeah those are pretty neat, and just as a fun thing they dont sound half bad either

Kinda. If the scale length is 7" the string length is 7"+compensation.

The neck can join anywhere you like. On a weissenborn guitar it joins at the nut. On a banjo it joins at the 22 fret or so.

The 12th fret will fall at half the scale from the nut. In this case 3.5".

Your best bet is simply to put pencil to paper and draw it out. Use the stewmac fret calculator to work out where the frets go for a given scale length. It will even give you a rough guide as to the compensation.
 
Last edited:
Kinda. If the scale length is 7" the string length is 7"+compensation.

Up to a point! I calculated the frets for a 7 inch scale, but then used a floating bridge to make my life easier. The bridge is at the point on the soundboard which gives me a reasonably accurate octave at the 12th fret, which is a fraction more than 7 inches from the nut.

As with any instrument, you are making trade-offs between aesthetics and playability. I can tell you that a 7 inch scale with a 1 inch nut is as small as an average player can manage, and even then it's not possible to make all the chord shapes - you have to develop cheats/workarounds.

I'd say you start with the scale length. That gives you the limits on the overall size of the instrument - it must be large anough to accommodate that scale, give you enough soundboard to make a noise, attach the strings, and so on.

Then you can decide how you want it to look. But that requires trade-offs as well - for example, the headstock on my baby ukes is in the way for some open position chords. But it would have looked really odd if I'd extended the thin part of the neck between the nut and the headstock, so I lived with the trade-off. I could have made the neck join at the 15th fret, but then (a) it would have looked unbalanced and (b) there would be less soundboard, thus quieter. Joining at the 8th fret would give me a larger body, but again the balance would have been off. So I chose the 12th. These are just examples of the kind of choices you need to make. Different body shapes would give you different answers (maybe a triangular body joining at the 8th would look good?).

If you are planning to build a sub-soprano uke I'd suggest you work somewhere in the 9 to 11 inch scale. This will still look tiny, but be large enough that you can play most of the common chords. A nut width of at least 1 1/8 inch would be good - this makes an enormous difference to playability. 1 1/8 would look too fat on a 7 inch scale, but should be OK at 9 inches. For an 11 inch scale you could go up to 1 1/4!

One way to at least estimate how playable the result would be is to capo an existing uke at roughly your desired scale length (pencil + elastic band will do this). I just took a soprano and discovered that a capo at the 4th fret is roughly an 11 inch scale. For a little over 9 inches, capo at the 7th. Then try playing, but remember you will want to make the neck narrower to keep your proportions pleasing.

Your best bet is simply to put pencil to paper and draw it out. Use the stewmac fret calculator to work out where the frets go for a given scale length. It will even give you a rough guide as to the compensation.

Definitely!
 
Top Bottom