Hot Hide Glue Temp (Water or the Glue?)

Dominator · Dec 22, 2012

I've seen various documents on the web suggesting temps from 140 to 165 degrees. Some documents are specific and say heat the "water" to x degrees while others simply say to heat the glule to x degrees. I just use a cheap Rival hot pot and some small glass mason jars. When the water temp is 140 degrees the glue is nowhere close to that temp. To get the glue itself to 140 degrees would require the water to reach close to boiling. So is it the water or the glue itself that should be monitored?

resoman · Dec 23, 2012

I also use a Rival hot pot. On my setup, when the water in the pot is 160 the glue is about 140-145. I keep the thermometer in the glue because that's really what matters.

BR Ukuleles · Dec 23, 2012

It's the glue that you are wanting to get up to temperature, but the water jacket will not need to be near boiling for that to happen. Just let the glue warm up longer.

I keep my glue in a small squeeze bottle so that it's easy to dispense. A brush sitting in the water bath is also a good idea if you need to spread some of that glue around.

Rick Turner · Dec 23, 2012

What Allen said...

Liam Ryan · Dec 23, 2012

No need for a thermometer. Just make it runny like maple syrup.

mzuch · Dec 23, 2012

I also use the Rival crock pot and 8 oz mason jars. Keeping the temperature dial at its lowest setting (without turning the pot off) works for me. The water does not boil at that setting.

Rick Turner · Dec 23, 2012

First, why would the glue not be the same temperature as the water unless you're incredibly impatient?

And second, why not use a candy thermometer just to make sure of the temperature? The Rival hot pots are notoriously all over the map as far as temperature is concerned...I wouldn't trust one without using a thermometer.

We use a traditional hot hide glue pot, but use the 3 oz. plastic squeeze jar technique. Water in the glue pot, glue bottles in the water. We fire up the glue pot in the morning and just leave it going all day. No issues re. temperature, though I did have to rewire the thing at one point and recalibrate it.

And, yes, runny like maple syrup...but that does not tell you the temperature. You can adjust viscosity via temperature or by how much water you put in there. You could have very runny hot hide glue at 100 F. if it were thinned out too much. And is that hot maple syrup or cold? You should have one known constant...the temperature...and that will cost you all of about 8 bucks to check.

Iffy glue joints are not something to screw around with. Do it right, get it right, and then you won't have to worry.

thistle3585 · Dec 23, 2012

My reason for not using hot hide glue has simply been to being a part time builder. I steal away time as it comes available to go to my shop to work. It sounds like I'd really need to "schedule" time that would involve the use of hide glue, and that is hard to do. Anyway to accelerate that heat time? What about leaving the hot water bath on for days at a time? I really need to decide to do something as I'm starting to dislike the glue lines in spruce as I am starting to build more acoustics.

ukegirl13 · Dec 23, 2012

Rick Turner said:
First, why would the glue not be the same temperature as the water unless you're incredibly impatient?

And second, why not use a candy thermometer just to make sure of the temperature? The Rival hot pots are notoriously all over the map as far as temperature is concerned...I wouldn't trust one without using a thermometer.

We use a traditional hot hide glue pot, but use the 3 oz. plastic squeeze jar technique. Water in the glue pot, glue bottles in the water. We fire up the glue pot in the morning and just leave it going all day. No issues re. temperature, though I did have to rewire the thing at one point and recalibrate it.

And, yes, runny like maple syrup...but that does not tell you the temperature. You can adjust viscosity via temperature or by how much water you put in there. You could have very runny hot hide glue at 100 F. if it were thinned out too much. And is that hot maple syrup or cold? You should have one known constant...the temperature...and that will cost you all of about 8 bucks to check.

Iffy glue joints are not something to screw around with. Do it right, get it right, and then you won't have to worry.

I have not used hot hide glue yet either but would like to. Hey, maybe that should be my New Years Rez!

Okay Rick, so I get a glue pot (I'll just get the traditional) and put the glue crystals in squeeze bottles and let them melt. Sounds easy. Anything else I should know?

resoman · Dec 23, 2012

Rick Turner said:
First, why would the glue not be the same temperature as the water unless you're incredibly impatient?

And second, why not use a candy thermometer just to make sure of the temperature? The Rival hot pots are notoriously all over the map as far as temperature is concerned...I wouldn't trust one without using a thermometer.

I know it sounds crazy but even after 4 or 5 hours there is always a difference in the temp between the glue and the water. I couldn't believe it either so I used my digital in the water and the candy therm in the glue. I use a pretty decent meat/candy thermometer (like $5.00 at the hardware store) that can be calibrated and I checked it against my digital and the candy one is spot on. The Rival heater actually works pretty good and only varies a few degrees. I have the glue set on a trivet that fits in the Rival just perfect and keeps the glue off of the heat source.
All in all, pretty cheap and decent little setup. One of these days I'll get a real glue pot but they're kinda spendy and I'm a cheap ass

Dominator · Dec 23, 2012

Rick Turner said:
First, why would the glue not be the same temperature as the water unless you're incredibly impatient?

And second, why not use a candy thermometer just to make sure of the temperature? The Rival hot pots are notoriously all over the map as far as temperature is concerned...I wouldn't trust one without using a thermometer.

As for patience. I've been blessed with much of that but just wasn't exercising it in this case. I just wasn't letting the glue heat up long enough. I only build part time at best when I can find a few hours to be in the shop. I do use a thermometer which is how I discovered the difference between the water temp and the glue temp. But this was after only having the pot on for a short period of time.

Thanks for the input folks.

Rick Turner · Dec 23, 2012

You can freeze the glue and then bring it up close to temp in a micro-wave.

And you don't just melt the granules...you have to add water.

PLEASE, folks, go over to Frank Ford's www.frets.com site and read his treatise on hot hide glue. Then go over to Mario Proulx's site and read up on how he uses the squeeze bottles with stainless steel nuts and bolts in the bottles to act as weights and heat sinks. Between the two of these guys, you'll learn everything you need to know. Combine the methods, and you'll find HHG easy to prepare, easy to use, and you'll be home free. BTW, Frank no longer bothers measuring or weighing the glue to water mix, and neither do I. But that's like a cook no longer needing to weight ingredients...it comes after you've done it a lot.

And if you really don't want to go to the trouble, then use LMI's "Luthiers' White Glue". It's the best substitute I know of for when you want to use a convenient, though water based glue.

resoman · Dec 23, 2012

Rick, It's because of you I have been using the HHG and have not one regret about movin over to that glue. It's not as difficult as people think. I've even been using it for other woodworking stuff. It might seem daunting before you start using it, seems like a lot of hassle, lotta trouble but it is no big deal!

Liam Ryan · Dec 23, 2012

The water is hotter than the glue in my baby bottle warmer setup. I've measured it. That said, I set the warmer to medium and fifteen minutes later the glue's ready to go. being a part timer doesn't make it any harder. In fact, using it has been easier than any internet site or forum post makes it out to be. I don't use a thermometer, I mix by eye, I don't refridgerate if I'm coming back the next day etc, no dramas

hawaii 50 · Dec 23, 2012

ukegirl13 said:
I have not used hot hide glue yet either but would like to. Hey, maybe that should be my New Years Rez! Okay Rick, so I get a glue pot (I'll just get the traditional) and put the glue crystals in squeeze bottles and let them melt. Sounds easy. Anything else I should know?

Hey Toni..
i think HHG is the way to go..my CR sounds soo good..it's got to be all those little thing that make a difference..have you seen the list of glue that Rick uses for each part of the uke..

i wonder if some builders just use one type glue for every part? not having any clue..that is what i would of done.. Lol

Happy Holidays

Rick Turner · Dec 24, 2012

Until glues like resorcinol and the powder urea-formaldahide glues came along, circa WWII for gluing wood aircraft and boats together, it was nearly all HHG in industry. I don't think "modern" glues were used in guitar production much before 1958 or so; Harmonys from that era were HHG built. Many luthiers do use one kind of glue for all wood to wood joints, using superglue maybe for inlays & quick repairs and acetone based glues like Duco for plastic bindings. Some traditional luthiers like Jose Romanillos prefer fish glue to HHG for it's long open time and the fact that you can use it without heating; the down side is that it's hygroscopic and thus is liable to fail in high humidity environments. The best fish glue is "isinglass" made from the air bladders of Russian sturgeon...and I'm not kidding! Look it up or search Kramer Pigments...I have some...

BR Ukuleles · Dec 24, 2012

All my students doing scratch builds learn to use HHG. They don't have any preconceptions about it, and no trouble whatsoever using it. I will never understand why there seems to be so much angst and fear of it.

Hot Hide Glue Temp (Water or the Glue?)

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