Do Mahogany soundboards "open up" over time too?

On reads a lot about spruce sound boards "opening up" over time.
Will a Mahogany "open up" over time as well?
Thanks!

Oh boy. Lot of different opinions on this one. I'm not sure i believe that. And yet I prefer the sound of my vintage Martins. But that could be less to do with the wood opening, and more to do with the quality of those tone woods back then.

Great question. Looking forward to following this thread.

So this isn't about mahogany, my uke is all koa. Body neck and all. I've had it for a year and a half and had never noticed it "opening up". Until...I laid it down and didn't play it for over a month. I picked it up again and could tell a tremendous amount of difference in the tone from before. Just food for thought.

The most dramatic change will be in the first month. After that there will be a steady change though be it more subtle as the instrument ages. It doesn't go on forever though, and at a certain point there will actually be a slow decline. Most people will notice that first dramatic change if they can get their hands on an instrument just made and had a set of strings put on it. After the month though you most likely be so accustomed to the very small changes that you won't notice. Someone that hasn't heard that instrument for some time though may very well comment on it.

All of this though is really dependant on the skill of the builder. If it's overbuilt then it aint ever really going to be great. And if too light it will die a premature death.

And it doesn't matter what type of wood it is.

Allen said:

And if too light it will die a premature death.

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Hi Allen,

Why is that?

I don't doubt that wooden instruments "open up" with age and use. But I wonder if the "opening up effect" isn't to a large extent enhanced by the player learning -- largely unconsciously -- how to get the most from the particular instrument.

Just an early morning thought.

N

As the first few replies indicate, "opening up" has more opinions than Baskin Robbins has flavors of ice cream.

Just as Andrew did the blind sound test of the five big named expensive ukuleles a few months ago and rarely could anyone even tell difference ukes apart and tell which brand is which ( even those of us who own the same bands), one thinks they can tell when the exact same uke changes over time? Come on.

Glue drying, bindings easing...heard all the arguments. Don't believe any of them. Personal opinion only, of course.

Can't wait for someone to record two sound samples of the same instrument spaced a year apart on one instrument, and a day apart on a different instrument then ask "okay, tell me which one is aged and opened up, and which one is not".

Agreed - I think the concept of a uke improving as a result of opening up is incredibly subjective.

Yes - the wood will open up with time - it happens. Will it improve it? Hard to say

1. If in five years you listen to it, can you honestly remember how it sounded when you bought it (you could record it I suppose)
2. you may be a better player in five years, or at least have a different style
3. Who says the wood changing makes it sound better - may make it sound worse?

bazmaz said:

3. Who says the wood changing makes it sound better - may make it sound worse?

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Funnily enough I've been pondering posting a question about whether anyone had an instrument that got worse with age, things like loss of volume and thinning of sound particularly. Is this more liely to be string related?

Ben_H said:

Funnily enough I've been pondering posting a question about whether anyone had an instrument that got worse with age, things like loss of volume and thinning of sound particularly. Is this more liely to be string related?

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Out of dozens of solid-wood instruments (guitars and ukes) that I have owned exactly two very clearly opened up radically and unquestionably during the first several weeks to 6 months I had them. One was a Seagul S6 cedar-topped guitar and the other is my Mainland mahogany soprano. Both went from "good enough that I bought it after playing it" to "holy cow I can't believe this thing" in a relatively short period of time.

Note that in spite of personal experience with the two instruments cited above I am very skeptical of most "opening up" claims and I would never buy an instrument on the speculation that it might open up and get better. If it's not good enough to buy right now my money will stay in my pocket, thank you very much!

I've had other instruments that may have opened up more slowly, but I wouldn't swear to it and wouldn't swear that it wasn't just the factor of my becoming more familiar with that particular instrument and how to get the best from it. I know that I have played brand-spanking-new Taylor guitars that sound every bit as good as my well-used 13-year old Taylor - as near as I can tell it hasn't changed a bit since the day I bought it new.

I have had exactly one instrument that I suspect has gotten a little worse with time in spite of new strings, though if so it's subtle enough that I couldn't swear to it. Also, that instrument started out amazingly good and now seems only very good, so it could be simply a matter of comparing it to a different stable of instruments than were around when I first got it. It would be difficult to say with any certainty either way.

Finally, regarding vintage instruments and the supposed fact that they sound so good because the wood has opened up (or the alternate claim, that the wood was better than that currently available). In some cases there may be some truth to those statements, and also a certain amount of truth to the idea that they were probably more carefully crafted by skilled workers than the "average" modern instrument. However, I think it's important to consider that we're looking at a fairly small sample of surviving instruments and it's quite likely that the reason they survived was that they were the "pick of the litter" to begin with. Their brothers and sisters that were only average have long since ended up in landfills.


John

The cell structure in wood changes with time. Even though the wood is dry before it's built with (or at least it should be). It's a very slow change at the molecular level. And the way and speed that the wood transmits sound energy changes. As well, finishes and glue continue to harden and dry or become brittle. It's all small things, but it's the accumulation of the subtitles that make a difference.

You are not likely to hear that sort of improvement even month to month. As I said earlier, the initial week to month is where the parts we put together realise that it's going to make music. Glues and finish are really starting to harden up. Everything is moving around subtlety to the new tensions placed on them. There will be a dramatic change.

As builders we strive to make an instrument that has the right amount of wood for the instrument to respond at it's best under the expected string tension that it's to be subjected to. You would never put a set of high tension strings onto a vintage instrument that was built for gut strings. And the same holds the other way around. Not enough tension to drive the top on a modern built instrument designed for high tension and low action.

This argument of opening up is misused by a lot of people selling instruments that will never be great. Reassuring the purchaser that something miraculous is going to happen down the road. Just give it time.

Don't think for a moment that an instrument that has been built and strung up for more than a month is going to somehow miraculously change. By far the most dramatic part has already happened.

Here's my take on the subject: Wood changes year from year because of the climate. Let's say we have a spruce grove, and every year, we cut down some of the spruce and make ukuleles out of it. There is going to be a tangible difference between one year and another; this is because in colder years, the rings grow closer together than in warmer years. If you use a ukulele built during a cold snap, it's going to have a different tone than one made 40 years later, during a warm snap. An interesting look at the Stradivarius violins shows that the wood used to make those violins was made during a long period of cold, so that the wood was a lot more dense.

Here, in fact, is an article about a Swiss researcher who puts fungus on trees to simulate the cold climate of the Stradivarius era. Good reading.

It's easy to be sceptical if you've never heard it.

I have zero doubt that in the first week after string up any well made, responsive instrument will change in sound. I've seen (heard) in on multiple instruments that I've made as well as ones that other luthiers have made. I've heard it on all types of top woods. There are measurable changes that go along with this opening up. The bridge rotates slightly under the force of the strings, the top can flex subtly as well. Just because you cant see these things after you take home your store bought uke doesn't make them myth. The rate of change seems to diminish rapidly and almost flatten out after several months.

99.9% of store bought instruments have been strung up for some time when they are sold. They've already opened up. That is if they aren't built like a weapon you'd take to a bar fight.

The people whose opinions matter on this subject are not the uke owners who by ukes from the local big box store. They are not the salesmen who don't get their instruments in until they've spent months in transit. They are not even the factory uke builders who build lots of ukes quickly under a production schedule then string them up, give them a quick strum, then throw them in a box and ship them out. The people who have a qualified opinion are the luthiers who spend the time and give their instrument care and attention after stringing to make sure their instruments a responding well to the pressures of being held under the considerable tension of four nylon strings.

liam_fnq said:

The people whose opinions matter on this subject are not the uke owners ... They are not the salesmen ... They are not even the factory uke builders ... The people who have a qualified opinion are the luthiers ...

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Yeah, but, as they say, "Opinions are like _______; everybody has one."

N

nbattaglia said:

Yeah, but, as they say, "Opinions are like _______; everybody has one."

N

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I suppose we need a new saying "Luthiers are like ___________, ............................." :smileybounce:

Bill1 said:

I have heard the phenomenon on several ukes I have, including a mahogany one, but there is no way to easily capture it on film, video, or sound recorder.
.

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So, opening up is like Bigfoot, a ghost, the Loch Ness monster or a Martian?

I'm just ribbing you, Bill. Lol.

Bill1 said:

The peoples who opinion matters are those who are going to pay for the uke. If they don't believe an ordinary sounding uke will ever get better, they will never buy it.
.

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I would never buy a uke expecting it to open up...It better sound good enough to buy and if it sounds better later, it's gravy.

nongdam said:

I would never buy a uke expecting it to open up...It better sound good enough to buy and if it sounds better later, it's gravy.

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Exactly! I was in a guitar store one day playing a decent little classical guitar. It wasn't super expensive, but neither was it a cheapy. I liked the way it felt, the intonation was very good, and it had decent tone especially for the price. I was within seconds of reaching for my wallet. Stupid salesman walked over and said, "That baby is all solid wood, it will really open up after you have it for a few months."

I didn't say a word, just hung it back on the wall and walked out of the store, and I've never been back. Did his remark suddenly make the guitar worse? Of course not. But I didn't need another guitar and his remark made that store a place where I didn't want to spend money.

John

I suspect the open up thing is one in a variety of factors that make a new instrument change over time. I had a rather dramatic (and somewhat traumatic) experience with a brand-new Pono that took some getting used to. It is a great instrument now, but I can't tell if the difference is my playing, the change in strings, or if it is opening up. I suspect that the biggest difference was me getting used to the instrument, the next was strings and finally maybe some small amount of the instrument getting "better" as I played it.