playing along with other instruments

KelseyW

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OK I am not entirely sure if this particular forum is the right place for this question but I don't know where else to put it so here goes.

My little sister plays guitar and we like to jam quite frequently; I usually write up arrangements for us to play and we have a lot of fun. HOWEVER. Today I was trying to figure out a good way for us to play a song called Hell on Heels (by the Pistol Annies) and I was trying to figure out the strumming pattern on my uke compared to a YouTube video of a guitar and it sounded completely different. The guitar chords say to put a capo on the fourth fret, and so I am thinking this is why it sounded so off? I did a bit of searching around on the internets and I've been reading up on keys and transposing and all that stuff and I am, I must tell you, completely, utterly confused.

I guess my main question is how are you 'supposed' to play along with other instruments that are not ukuleles? I know that a standard-tuned uke is in the key of C, and also that a standard-tuned guitar is in the key of D, so when you're playing together, how do you make that work? Do you just toss all of your cares to the wind and play in seperate keys?

What if I am trying to learn a song and am working off of guitar chords that are supposed to have a capo on the fourth fret? Do I try transposing all of the chords for me to play on my ukulele?

And when it comes right down to it, how do I know which key a song is in in the first place?

I'm sorry if this all sounds a little crazy, and thanks in advance for reading this!!

-Kelsey
 
The first thing you need to do is to find out what the actual chords are for the song. Not what chord SHAPE you use to play the song, but the actual chord. For instance, if you're playing guitar and are playing an open C (x32010) but have a capo on the 4th fret, than you're not playing a C chord anymore. You're playing an E.

You seem to be operating under a misconception about tunings for both ukulele and guitar. Either one can play any chord in any key. You are not restricted to playing only in certain keys on either instrument. This goes for all stringed instruments and most that aren't.

The reason they say that call the stand ukulele tuning "C tuning" is because when you tune a ukulele to standard C, the open notes make a C chord. A C6 to be exact. If you mute the open A string then you get a C.

The guitar isn't tuned to D. All of the open notes in standard tuning (EADGBe) for guitar do happen to land in the key of C (all natural notes), but the chord you get when you strum them together is an Em7add11, or a G6/9/E, A7sus2sus4/E, depending on what inversion you use. Guitarist don't call their standard tuning by any chord or key name for that reason. There are OTHER tunings that ARE called by their chord names, like Open-D and Open-G; these are simply tuned to have only the notes in that chord when rang open.


I'm not familiar with the song Hell on Wheels, nor do I know what video you are using to learn it, but after doing a brief search on ultimate-guitar.com, it looks like the song is played tuned down half a step. That means that when you play a chord shape, like an open-C chord, you're actually playing a D#. Tuning down like that is basically the opposite of a capo. A capo will automatically transpose chords UP a pitch. Tuning down transposes chords down a pitch.

So yes, when you are playing from a chord sheet for guitar that has a capo on it, you have to transpose the chords UP by however many frets the capo is played, in half steps. So if you have a song that uses the chords "G, C, Am, F" and it has a capo on the 2nd fret, you will have to transpose the chords UP by two half-steps. This makes the chords that are actually being played: A, D, Bm, G. Those are the chords that are being played sonically. If you play those on a ukulele it will sound just fine.


I've been trying to find a link to a very basic guide on music theory, specifically on chords and keys, but have not had any luck. I'm hoping that someone else here who has more time on their hands can either explain it to you or give you a link that will explain it.
 
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Brandon is correct. Never ever mix up chord shape (where to put your fingers) with chord sound (what you hear as a result). Ukuleles can play along with a multitude of instruments without any transposing or problems (challenges usually start when wind instruments like clarinets or all kinds of brass come in).

For that specific song the easiest "solution" would be to play the uke with capo in 4th fret as well. Thus both instruments are "tuned" four half steps up = they are on the same level again. The better solution is of course playing the correct chords on the un-capoed uke, i.e. the ones you hear (as explained above).

Just in case for a rough idea about the naming of the half steps:
keyboard_notes.gif

Bear in mind that C# and Db are the same note, i.e. C#=Db, D#=Eb, F#=Gb, G#=Ab, A#=Bb (and consequently E#=F, Fb=E, B#=C, Cb=B)
 
Thanks to Brandon7s, strumsilly, and Louis018. I am trying to learn more about music theory myself and the information you all gave is very helpful.

On a related question, is there any rule for when a note is referred to the flat or sharp version of itself? As Louis018 stated, C# and Db are the same note. Is there a rule of some sort that dicatates when a piece of music refers to it as one over the other?

Thanks again,

Flaky
 
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The basic rule is that you can only have either sharps OR flats in a scale. I'm pretty sure that the reason for this is to avoid having the same letter twice in a scale. I might be completely off base on that considering I haven't done any research on this, but it makes sense to me. :D
 
With regards to the key of a song, Brandon is correct: the key has either sharps or flats (up to 6), but never both. E.g. G major has F#, F major has Bb. Check the Circle of Fifths for a full overview of all allowed combinations.

But when it comes to individual notes within a song you can find everything, including double # and double b (e.g. F## = G, Bbb = A). Which one is used depends on composer's mood, ease of reading, the weather forecast, your postman's shoe size, .....
 
On a related question, is there any rule for when a note is referred to the flat or sharp version of itself? As Louis018 stated, C# and Db are the same note. Is there a rule of some sort that dicatates when a piece of music refers to it as one over the other?

How you right the note depends on the key signature. For example in the key of D (two sharps), the notes of the D scale would include F# and C#, so in the key of D, you would write a C#. In a key that included flats in the key signature, such as Ab (four flats) you would notate is as a Db since it is a part of the Ab scale. so the general rule of thumb would be to notate as a sharp when the key signature includes sharps (G, D, A, E, etc.) or as a flat when the key signature includes flats (f, Bb, Eb, Ab, etc.). The same holds true for accidentals in the key.
 
I'm going to stick my two sense in here as a guitar and ukulele player. If you put a capo on the fifth fret of the guitar and play only the bottom four strings you are playing a ukulele with a low G tuning. If you know what the chord shapes that they are using in the video are then you can simply tune down the ukulele by a half step. So instead of gCEA you would tune it to f#,B,D#,G#. Then just play the chord shapes that you see. From watching the video it looks like if you played A D A Em That's the entire song. Or if you don't want to tune down and you can play the actual chords. G# C# G# D#m. Personally I would play it in A if it where me.

Here's a basic start on music theory at least what I think is the important stuff to learn first.

To transpose notes you have to know what notes are in a key how notes work to make chords and how chords work with in keys. Our basic western scales are built the same. So look at your notes available. A A#/Bb B C C#/Db D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab. Each note is a half step. So from A to A# is a half step. Two half steps is a whole step so A to B is a whole step. To figure out what notes (and chords) are in a key simply Count 2 whole steps 1 half step 3 whole steps 1 half step. So in the key of A you would have A B C# D E F# G# A. You can also use this scale to figure out what notes belong in a chord. Every major chord uses three notes. The first the third and the fifth. So for the A chord you would use A(the first) C#(the third note of the scale) and E(the fifth note of the scale). Most songs especially blues and rock use a basic One, Four, Five chord progression with other chords added to it. So using our A scale again the first chord would be an A The fourth chord would be D and the fifth chord would be E. So in an 8 or 12 bar blues in the key of A you would play A D and E.

This is a good starting point. Your not going to get it all in one day. Practice making chords from notes and figuring out what the first fourth and fifth chords are in songs. If you can get this down in your head, then move onto minors, sevenths, and major sevenths. From there you can learn about suspended seconds and fourths then added notes, then sixths, fifths, ninths and thirteenths then onto diminished chords. As you learn each type of chord and what notes to add to it it will become easier and easier. There is actually a very common sense way to how chords are made and used with in keys.

I hope this helps.
 
thank you so much, everyone. I wrote that post at like one o'clock in the morning so I think I was a little out of my mind; now I definitely understand the difference between chord shapes and chord sounds haha.

I think I have another question, though, in re Louis0815's statement about playing with wind and brass instruments.
One of my other little sisters plays clarinet and I was hoping to get her in on our family jam sessions; but now I'm a little leery.
In the first place, why would/will it be harder for us to play together and second, what can I do about it?

(also does anyone have any tips for playing along with harmonica?)
 
I played on my church's worship team with keyboard, guitar, drums, bass, and the occasional saxophone.
When the capo came out, I just had to play in a different key or I used a capo (only did this on harder songs where the fingering would be easier if I used the capo). Main thing is is to know the chords actually being used. I know nothing of theory so I always had to ask so that I could print off the proper song/chords.
When the Saxophone played with us, he used his own music or he played by ear.
So a g chord will be a g chord on any stringed instrument. It just may look different. If a capo is used, either you need to learn theory or hopefully you play with someone that knows theory.
 
thank you so much, everyone. I wrote that post at like one o'clock in the morning so I think I was a little out of my mind; now I definitely understand the difference between chord shapes and chord sounds haha.

I think I have another question, though, in re Louis0815's statement about playing with wind and brass instruments.
One of my other little sisters plays clarinet and I was hoping to get her in on our family jam sessions; but now I'm a little leery.
In the first place, why would/will it be harder for us to play together and second, what can I do about it?

(also does anyone have any tips for playing along with harmonica?)

If I'mnot mistaken harmonicas come in keys. So if you are playing a song in the key of D (no idea what that would look like btw) then the harmonica player would pull out the key of d harmonica. Our guitar player will sometimes pull out one and he has a bag of them. One for each key.
 
I think I have another question, though, in re Louis0815's statement about playing with wind and brass instruments.
One of my other little sisters plays clarinet and I was hoping to get her in on our family jam sessions; but now I'm a little leery.
In the first place, why would/will it be harder for us to play together and second, what can I do about it?
The tricky thing about clarinet is that it is a "transposing" instrument: what you play is not what you hear (a bit similar to the capo story). E.g. a Bb clarinet sounds a full note (two half steps) lower than the played ("fingered") note: The fingers play B - and you hear an A.
When the uke plays a song in the key of C, the (Bb) clarinet must play the song in the key of D - two half steps up.
Already confused? I'll try to clarify with a small example...
ukulele plays:
C C G G A A G
(twink-le, twink-le, lit-tle star)

Bb clarinet plays:
D D A A B B A
(twink-le, twink-le, lit-tle star)

And you hear the same frequencies from both instruments.
 
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