On ear-tuning and "perfect" intonation...the light comes on...

Well...since I have to take a day off to take care of sick family members I guess I have a little time to kill...so it's time to be a chatty Kathy...

There was a discussion a while back about whether people trust their tuners...I thought about reviving that thread but decided it had run its course and this topic is a little different.

Anyway, when we were discussing that topic I thought about the performers, especially classical guitarists, who tune their instruments for each piece that they perform.

Any time you have a fretted instrument the intonation is never going to be perfect. Even when it's a custom or a well-set-up high end uke there are going to be some compromises. When we talk about "perfect" intonation we're really talking about "acceptable intonation" - i.e. intonation that is "good enough" that the performer and the audience are not going to be put off by the slight imperfections of certain notes. Obviously, we expect "acceptable intonation" from custom and high-end ukes and it can often be achieved with mid range ukes with careful setup and string selection.

Also, if one hasn't yet developed a discriminating ear one might consider the intonation on a given uke "perfect" while those around are cringing. (The only real way to develop a better ear seems to be to play and listen to instruments with good intonation almost exclusively.)

So, back to the teaser above, how about those top-notch performers who tune an instrument for each piece? What's going on there? I gave it some thought and experimented a little and it seems that certain intervals are much more noticeable than others when the tuning between two notes is not quite perfect.

For me, at least, the most critical interval seems to be the unison - i.e., two notes on different strings being at exactly the same pitch. Even the slightest deviation here is quite noticeable to me, while I'm far less likely to detect a minor pitch problem with the third, the perfect fifth, and even the octave. I suspect I'm not alone in this because mandolin players are infamous for insisting on ear-tuning the string pairs.

So, to put this in the practical realm, if I just tune with a Snark, for example, then even if the intonation of the first position on a uke is quite good the G major chord might sound wonky to me even if I tune the E string fretted at the 3rd fret to get a "perfect" G note. The problem is that even though the G string and the fretted E string are both showing a "perfect" G on the tuner there is a slight difference. On other intervals it's not such a big deal, but on unison notes is enough to drive me a little bit bonkers.

So, to tune for a key where the G major is used a lot, I would ear tune so the open G string and fretted E string are perfect. A similar situation is the G string fretted at the second fret and the open A string of an F major chord. In practice, I've found that if, after tuning with the tuner, if playing in the key of C doesn't sound quite right I can get "perfect" sound by ear tuning the open G to the fretted E, and then the open A to the fretted G. Now, the unison notes in my G and F (and Am) chords are spot on. The notes in other chords may still be a bit out - but as long as they aren't unison intervals it's not so noticeable, at least not to me.

So, do I do this every time? No, it's too much trouble. But, if after "Snarking" the uke something doesn't sound right I then touch up the tuning as described. Now I just need to get my hands on a uke that needs a setup at the nut and see how much of that poor intonation can actually be cleaned up by ear-tuning the unisons...

John

Thanks John! That is some good info. I have had some experiences where I was tuned to the tuner, but certain notes in certain situations didn't sound right. I always felt a little guilty fooling with the tuning "By Ear" to make it sound better. This happens especially in one song our family plays as an ensemble. No matter how well i tune to the tuner, I have to adjust the C string to get the D at the second fret to fit in with everyone else. This doesn't happen with other songs as often.

Agree 100%.

I do the same "ear tuning" you describe, except I also do it with the octave between the open 3rd string C and the third fret C on the first string. On my low-G tunings, I do the octave G where you are doing the unison. I agree, it's the nature of a fretted instrument, you cannot have every interval perfectly in tune. It's the same on a piano.

It took me some time to come to terms with this having come from a fretless instrument (the viola) where minor adjustments to pitch are constantly made depending on the key or where the note fits in the chord.

Too complicated for a dumbbell (Spellcheck's spelling) like me.

Back in the day, when I played electric Bass, my band was recording in a very well known studio in Richmond, Virginia. The sound tech simply would not let me tune my bass by ear. He instisted that I use a tuner. I explained that I didn't like how my bass sounded using a digital tuner. He told me that it didn't matter; numbers don't lie. If the tuner said it was out of tune then it was out of tune. Of course, I tuned it the way I wanted anyway and I got dirty looks from him the whole session.

OldePhart said:

So, do I do this every time? No, it's too much trouble. But, if after "Snarking" the uke something doesn't sound right I then touch up the tuning as described. Now I just need to get my hands on a uke that needs a setup at the nut and see how much of that poor intonation can actually be cleaned up by ear-tuning the unisons...

John

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Thanks John - I used to think everyone did this, but I grew up tuning my guitar to a tuning fork, then to itself.

Yes, I like my Snark tuners. Yes, I use them. But as with everything else, they are there as a guide, not a rule.

Except in a noisy atmosphere, where I can't hear the individual strings. Then, "Close Enough For Folk" wins.

I usually start with either the C or E strings for a starting point..because they are thicker and produce more volume to hear....and then I match string to string ....unison

mm stan said:

I usually start with either the C or E strings for a starting point..because they are thicker and produce more volume to hear....and then I match string to string ....unison

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This is really very interesting, and thank you for posting it. I have noticed little tuning anomalies, and your post explains them - I'm going to print out the thread and fiddle around with my uke(s) and my tuner, playing in different keys, and I know that at the end of it I will have profited by it..... great stuff, John and everyone else here, too..... actually I'll report back when I have something worthwhile to contribute to this! Thanks again....

Now that I do not play guitar nearly as often... One thing I really miss is tuning to harmonics. I have pretty poor pitch and when using harmonics you don't just hear it come into tune, put you can also feel the pulse of the note come into unison. Always loved that. Much harder on the uke. Not very practical, but I will sometimes play around with artificial harmonics to check tuning. For some reason me ear just hears it better.

Tuning is a very crazy universe. I usually spend a lesson with my Sixth Formers discussing the differences between equal temperament and just intonation. If it's not something you're familiar with, we knock our scale out of tune to make the distance between all the notes the same. By the natural laws of physics, the distances aren't equal. So, when people from other, Non-Westernised cultures listen to our music, it sounds out of tune, because... well, it is. And has been for about 300 years.

So, if you tune by ear any interval other than a unison, you will probably unconsciously tune to the just-intoned interval, which is different from the equal-tempered interval. So, when you hear that it's impossible to tune a stringed instrument, it's not a philosophical comment. It's a mathematical certainty.

The engineer who insists on the digital tuner wants everything equally out of tune. The player who knows the song is in G (and importantly, doesn't stray to too many different keys) can tune their instrument so that G is more in tune. The engineer is doing what makes neutral, mathematical sense. The player is breaking the rules of equal temperament in a specific context. In my limited experience, I strongly favour the player favouring keys. As long as they remember to adjust afterwards.

I imagine, given ukulele tuning, that players with good ears almost always cheat their ukuleles toward the key of C without even meaning to.

Sometimes I tune by a melody on the A string too... I play a familiar and favorite riff and go from there... as I use alternative tunings for different songs...

jwieties said:

Now that I do not play guitar nearly as often... One thing I really miss is tuning to harmonics. I have pretty poor pitch and when using harmonics you don't just hear it come into tune, put you can also feel the pulse of the note come into unison. Always loved that. Much harder on the uke. Not very practical, but I will sometimes play around with artificial harmonics to check tuning. For some reason me ear just hears it better.

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Yes, the "beat note" is a large part of making ear-tuning possible (and generally more accurate than a tuner) for me. And it's exactly why I tune the open G to the fretted E string G, and so on, as I described earlier. I guess the fact that the notes are unison makes it both necessary, and possible, to tune them to exactly match.

For those who might not know what you're talking about...what happens is that when you mix two frequencies (be they audio sound waves or radio waves, etc.) you get two additional frequencies, the sum and the difference. When you have two notes that are very close to exactly the same pitch the difference frequency is detectable as a "pulse" or "beat note." This "pulse" slows down as you get closer to the two pitches being in unison, at which point it disappears entirely. This is why when tuning by ear you always start with one string obviously low, all you have to do is gradually tune it up until you hear the beat note slow down and stop.

It's also why a quiet room is important, because if there is a lot of noise going on around it can greatly interfere with your ability to detect that beat note (because you've got a whole bunch of other frequencies from other sources that are also mixing with the tones you're attempting to tune).

Kind of a funny story...I was working on adjusting the nut on one of my guitars once and just could not get the strings in tune - finally I noticed that the ceiling fan over my head was on and set on "slow" and the doppler affect was mimicking the sound of a beat note...

John

grendel1972 said:

Agree 100%.... It took me some time to come to terms with this having come from a fretless instrument (the viola) where minor adjustments to pitch are constantly made depending on the key or where the note fits in the chord.

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Me 3. Having had to tune to the oboe A in orchestra, then tune the other strings to that, I've always thought fretted instrument players have it easy in tuning the strings to each other.
Whatever instrument we play it seems we are battling the standardised intervals. The note B needs to be that tiny bit sharper when it is the 7th in the key of C, but lower when in another key. Switch a minor key and it is all out.

As someone who cringes when someone plays or sings even a little bit out - especially if sharp, I am never satisfied with my tuner's judgement. I used to waste a lot of time tuning my cello. Somehow with uke, a little out of tune just adds to its charm though.

Katz-in-Boots said:

...
Somehow with uke, a little out of tune just adds to its charm though.

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I suspect this is to do with the fact that when a ukulele is out of tune, much of the harmonic interference is beyond 20kHz, so only dogs care.

I use the Peterson Strobo Clip, with its "sweetened" tuning. If I understand it correctly, it makes exactly the tradeoff described in the original post. It "fixes" the discrepancies in the more common combinations at the expense of worsening others. So, for the most part, the uke sounds more "perfectly tuned."

This is all well and good but, from a piano tuner's perspective, a waste of time. Sure you can adjust your tuning to sound "better" in the key of G major, or any other key, BUT it will only sound "better when you play a G major chord. Every other chord in the music you play will be further out than if you simply use the tempered scale. So, "better in G" is "worse" in musical context. (sincere apologies, but it's very simple physics)
All this looking for trouble where none exists is troubling. If you listened this carefully to the recordings of your most favorite professionals on the very best instruments, you'd hear the same discrepancies. You just don't notice because the focus is the MUSIC (and sound).

stevepetergal said:

This is all well and good but, from a piano tuner's perspective, a waste of time. Sure you can adjust your tuning to sound "better" in the key of G major, or any other key, BUT it will only sound "better when you play a G major chord. Every other chord in the music you play will be further out than if you simply use the tempered scale. So, "better in G" is "worse" in musical context. (sincere apologies, but it's very simple physics).

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Actually not true (or true only from a piano tuner's perspective ). With a stringed and fretted instrument the notes you use playing in a particular key are repeated through most of the chords in that key (for a given "position" on the uke) and there are unison intervals in those chords (especially on a reentrant uke).

This entire technique is completely moot on a piano where every note is tuned individually, there are never two notes played on a single string, and, most importantly, where there are no unisons.

But on a guitar or especially on a reentrant uke, yeah, the difference is sometimes downright obvious - and that's on ukes that intonate pretty well in the first position - I suspect that the difference might be even more obvious on a "factory" uke that hasn't been set up properly.

If you listened this carefully to the recordings of your most favorite professionals on the very best instruments, you'd hear the same discrepancies. You just don't notice because the focus is the MUSIC

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Depends greatly on the "professionals," honestly. There are some "professional" recordings out there that I can't tolerate listening to at all. The people I tend to listen to have been obsessing over exactly this kind of thing for a long time.

Actually, the more I play well-tuned instruments the more that I notice these discrepancies, even in popular recorded music. And, oh my word, don't even get me started on how bad auto-tuned stuff stinks - yet neither my wife nor daughter can even detect when an auto-tune is being used most of the time! LOL

Oh, and, BTW, I'm not claiming to have a bionic ear, by any means, but my pitch accuracy has developed remarkably since I've been playing instruments that intonate well (about 3 or 4 years now, I guess). Up until I bought nut files and started setting my guitars up, I could tolerate a guitar that was off by as much as ten cents at the first fret. Now a guitar that is a few cents out at the first fret is so distracting to me that I can barely play. Years ago I used to think my blind friend (who has perfect absolute pitch) was nuts when he'd say certain chords were bad on my guitars - now I can hear exactly what he suffered through all those years!

John

John has this one right. The adjustments being made are for a certain key, not a certain chord. When I tune my uke I'm sweetening it for the key of C (assuming I'm tuning my stings gcea) as that is going to fit the best for what I usually play. If I play something in B Major, though, you can bet I'm not going to make exactly the same adjustments). This is the way all keyboard instruments were tuned prior to tempered tuning becoming the standard. Tempered tuning has a lot of benefits, but it also involves trade-offs.

There are very few instruments that are limited by tempered tuning, and players of those instruments (or singers) naturally make slight adjustments. A c# in the key of c# minor is not the same note as a c# in the key of A Major. It's just not. The tempered tuning of a piano and fretted instruments loses this distinction.

Just listen to any Louis Armstrong's trumpet playing. He is almost never exactly on the exact pitch he'd be forced into if he were playing the piano. The slight adjustments, inflections, leans, it's part of what makes his playing great.

Years ago, when I tried to learn guitar, I used the beat method to tune up but it used to take me forever. I found I could tell when two strings were out of tune but I couldn't always tell whether the one I was adjusting was sharp or flat so I used to go to and fro.

Now with an electronic tuner I can quickly get very close. I then check by ear and find that much of the time I don't really need to make much more adjustment. I find my Snark is pretty accurate.

Tootler said:

Years ago, when I tried to learn guitar, I used the beat method to tune up but it used to take me forever. I found I could tell when two strings were out of tune but I couldn't always tell whether the one I was adjusting was sharp or flat so I used to go to and fro.

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The trick is to start obviously low and work up to the correct pitch (I suppose you could start intentionally high and work down, but the convention seems to be to start low and increase). When the beat note disappears or is so slow as to be unnoticeable in the current ambient noise conditions you're there. This is why you almost always see pros who tune in mid-song or mid-set drop the pitch and then bring it back up.

John