HVLP question

AlaskaTheo

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Hi guys,
Pardon my ignorance and lack of information but my dad recently offered me his HVLP setup. He has described it as a Graco with 10 to 15 foot of 1”id hose and accompanying compressor. He said it was several hundred dollars (if that may give a hint to the model) he hasn’t really been able to tell me much more than that.

I think that he never really used it and he has offered to get it to me, but If it’s not really what I can use I’d rather save him the money of sending it. I really don’t know much about this but the hose size just seems pretty big and makes me think that maybe this is for spraying much more than a uke.

I guess my question is, is this likely to be useful for spraying finishes for ukes? Are HVLP systems mostly interchangeable as far as use or are they more specialized between application types?

Again please pardon my ignorance and lack of info, and thanks for any advise.
 
My Fuji Q4 uses a 1" OD hose, 25' long. I've finished several hundred ukes with it and have grown to love the way it works. Check to see how many stages the outfit has. I had a three stage once and it didn't quite do the job for me.
 
I use SATA HVLP conversion guns that just work off of normal shop air supply. Expensive guns, but they last forever and can be easily refurbished. I've been using my main two guns for about 18 years now, and that's on well over 2,000 instruments...maybe 2,500.
 
Go for it. You'll never know if it works for you until you try it. I wouldn't worry about it being too powerful for ukes, as you have control over the amount of finish at the gun. Underpowered would be a bigger concern. However, I'm a bit confused about what you're getting -- is it an HVLP system driven by a turbine or a spray gun driven by an air compressor?

I use a turbine-powered Earlex 5500 that I'm happy with so far, although it took me a while to find a non-toxic finish that I liked.
 
Most likely, it is a turbine system so you don't need an air compressor. The turbine runs air through the hose and pressurizes the fluid in the cup gun. I have an older one and have used it to paint a wide range of stuff and sprayed a range of materials. The downside is that the turbine begins to heat up as it runs and it starts pushing hot air through the hose causing the finish to coagulate and spit.
 
I try to avoid chemicals as much as possible. Heck I even grow most of my own food organically, what I can’t buy I have shipped to me, organic and non GMO. My family stopped shopping at the Grocery store in fall of 2011 (we do go occasionally for some fruit mid winter through spring).

My grandfather was a professional painter, I can recall the shaking of his hands , and of degradation of his mind over the years, he was diagnosed with all sorts of brain issues, I’m not sure that they knew for sure. I always suspected a life of working with paint may have had something to do with it. I think that it has always made me a bit nervous, especially through my days as a research assistant in graduate school, lots of organic solvents among other things.

The other end of the chemical argument is not only exposure, but the production and waste streams associated with them.

Oh, no I’m almost talking myself out of it. ;) lol

I started out with French polish as a natural way to go, But I don’t think it will cut it for what I’m after, at least for some things. I recognize the need for a much more durable finish, especially after seeing one of my ukes scratched through the finish within hours of being strung up for the first time.
 
Most likely, it is a turbine system so you don't need an air compressor. The turbine runs air through the hose and pressurizes the fluid in the cup gun. I have an older one and have used it to paint a wide range of stuff and sprayed a range of materials. The downside is that the turbine begins to heat up as it runs and it starts pushing hot air through the hose causing the finish to coagulate and spit.

I suspect that it is a turbine system, but it was hard to get the information I got, for a while it was just HVLP. I've sent him an email to see if I can get a bit more info, given his lack of discription I wonder if it might be in storage.
 
I try to avoid chemicals as much as possible. Heck I even grow most of my own food organically, what I can’t buy I have shipped to me, organic and non GMO. My family stopped shopping at the Grocery store in fall of 2011

I'm pretty much doing the same thing. The most important piece of equipment I have is a fresh air respirator and a full body suit. I wouldn't think of spraying without it. I've had my share if disorders to to chemical exposure. When ventilating the stuff think about a waterfall type of filter.
Even with french polish you've got alcohol fumes. That's opens the gate to a lot of jokes but it can be a serious risk for some people.
At least with the HLVP system, the droplet size is bigger and more apt to fall on the floor than to become air borne. When I spray, my spray room air is clear.
 
I purchased one of these at the same time I started sraying lacquer professionally. It is slow, and cumbersome, but it works really well. For me, a respirator works ok, but not for daily work with solvents. I also have the full face mask for when things get really thick. Second in importance is a well thought out spray booth.

http://www.paint-booths.com/air-respirators/sas-survivair-one-man-half-mask-system-4733.html

Every bit as dangerous to the professional, is wood dust.
 
So I got a little more info, It’s a Graco Series 700 M73109. It’s a 3 stage turbine system.
Some #’s
Unrestricted 101cfm
Max working pressure 5psi (.34 bar)


My Fuji Q4 uses a 1" OD hose, 25' long. I've finished several hundred ukes with it and have grown to love the way it works. Check to see how many stages the outfit has. I had a three stage once and it didn't quite do the job for me.

By "didn't quite do the job for me', do you mean it didn't work or was a pain? might it be an ok place to start for an inexperienced sprayer, or should I just look to get somthing more effective?
 
So I got a little more info, It’s a Graco Series 700 M73109. It’s a 3 stage turbine system.
Some #’s
Unrestricted 101cfm
Max working pressure 5psi (.34 bar)




By "didn't quite do the job for me', do you mean it didn't work or was a pain? might it be an ok place to start for an inexperienced sprayer, or should I just look to get somthing more effective?

The 3 stage system I have didn't had enough power to atomize correctly. Even with drastic thinning and copious amounts of retarder the finish still had too much orange peel for me. Orange peel means time spent in sanding and lacquer lost. With the 4 stage I get a beautiful smooth finish. Time is money in the shop.
 
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If it is free try it.

Otherwise.. get a system like Chuck's , or the Graco 4900 system. You can find them on ebay that have little use, for a good price. My 4900 system (I bought it new) came with 2 guns, and 6 different needle/fluid tips, I have used them all, super pleased with this tool. ( I also have numerous other spray guns and pressure pot rigs)

If you have a big compressor, an Accuspray Model 10 will do you right for lacquer, my favorite lacquer gun yet!
IMO, as much or more so than any other tool, get good spray equipment. Poor equipment will make it difficut or near impossible to get a good finish.

I have sprayed with many different guns, they all feel a little different, there is a difference. With a turbine HVLP system, not only is enough volume of air important, but very effective filtration of the air that is supplied by the turbine. Even it the system atomizes properly, if it also delivers dust, you are not going to get the finish you want.

Personally, I would stick to equipment that is used by professional finishers, painters. Forget about the gear that is oriented towards woodworkers, that is a secondary market, IMO. You can walk into almost any paint store, automotive or otherwise, even Home Depot, and order parts for Graco equipment. Fuji is also excellent, and there are a few other brands in the turbine range of gear that I would consider. There are also some very good options, if you go into equipment that runs from air supplied by a compressor. This is mainly the equipment used by the auto finishers, which needs to be very high quality.
 
all that aside.. I do not use my turbine system for spraying lacquer very often, though it works well.

Compressed air is a really great tool in the shop, for so many reasons. You can get a great gun for spraying that runs from it, and it will power a DA sander like the Hutchins 3970, which is a vast, huge improvement over any electric model, except the big festool sanders which are inappropriate for uke work. Air will also run a pencil grinder which is a really cool tool. A good sized compressor is necessary for these applications, not a teeny pancake, or even almost any of the contractor sized compressors.
 
Thanks guys, that helps a lot.

It seems like I really need something else, I may take it anyway, I could probably find a use for it.
My compressor is more of a contractor grade version (5 gal?)) , maybe its time for an upgrade, until now I’ve just used it for nail guns mostly. I’ve had my eye on pencil grinders for a little while now.
From a budget standpoint it seems like a compressor driven gun might be a cheaper option.
I guess I’ve got some figuring to do, I defiantly want to upgrade my finishes.
 
HVLP turbine setups are fine. most woodworking shops don't use them and instead rely on compressed air. i'm a cabinetmaker. i don't know what luthiers use but would imagine the more inexpensive small touch up guns would have plenty of fan for a ukulele. even large shops have gone away from compressed air HVLP guns connected to 2 gallon paint pots and instead use the gravity cup HVLPs auto painters use. SATA is great, i use iwata. the new set ups use shockingly small amounts of air and can be powered by a hundred buck porter cable compressor, hopefully set up with a filtration unit.
as good as the SATA &c stuff is i'm sure with investigation you can find a knock off for forty bucks.
 
HVLP turbine setups are fine. most woodworking shops don't use them and instead rely on compressed air. i'm a cabinetmaker. i don't know what luthiers use but would imagine the more inexpensive small touch up guns would have plenty of fan for a ukulele. even large shops have gone away from compressed air HVLP guns connected to 2 gallon paint pots and instead use the gravity cup HVLPs auto painters use. SATA is great, i use iwata. the new set ups use shockingly small amounts of air and can be powered by a hundred buck porter cable compressor, hopefully set up with a filtration unit.
as good as the SATA &c stuff is i'm sure with investigation you can find a knock off for forty bucks.


The top level turbines are good. The smaller ones are a waste of time. I think the key concepts here are the difference between a finish, and an efficiently applied, high quality finish. It is not about fan size, per se, overall control of the volume of fluid, being able to deliver the volume you want, and proper atomization of this fluid is more where it is at, IMO. I do not want to be waiting around for the fan to put some finish on the surface. I want to move very quickly, and know that the surface is wet. A small touch up gun is totally inefficient for finishing ukes, though, arguably, it would work. If one wanted to, an airbrush could successfully be used to spray finish on an uke. The problem is in getting a nice sumptuous wet coat that flows well together all over the instrument. With a small gun, and an uke, say it takes 6 passes or maybe more to really wet one side of the instrument. ( I have seen exactly this scenario with a nice new Graco HVLP Gravity cup, fluid needle pulled well out, it was a smaller one) With a full sized, professional gun, with the fluid turned up, that same side could be sprayed (without control) in one pass, to sagging if you wanted. Turn down the fluid a little, or just don't squeeze the trigger quite as deep, and the side can be comfortably fully wetted in 3 easy passes, and maybe a couple blips on the triggger at the top or maybe the bottom of the instrument, depending on what your spray sequence is.

My introduction to Cardinal lacquer ( I have sprayed, literally, thousands of gallons of lacquer, and numerous different brands) was only recently, and on a small gravity cup HVLP, made by Graco. It was a smaller gun, that was purchased to be efficient on air, and run on a small compressor. This is a new gun, and nice. Even with the fluid needle turned way out, it just wouldnt let out enough lacquer to move as fast as I wanted to, as fast as I needed to to get a really nice wet flow. I was super pleased with the Cardinal lacquer, but it did not lay out like I wanted that time. ( it was the gun) For the situation, that gun works. The lacquer needs to be thinned when spraying through it. Next time was on my gun, 3 casual passes and the side was fully wet, continuing on it was easy to fully wet the surface, and by the time I made it back to the starting point, it was still wet and flowing well. ( Cardinal lacquer is possibly my favorite ever, I love how it feels) If it takes too long to make it around the instrument, by the time you meet your starting point, the lacquer does not flow all glassy back into itself, requiring more sanding where the little lacquer droplets sit on the surface of the already curing lacquer like the drips when you are at the beach building sand drip castles. Also likely, it does not put on enough finish overall, requiring more coats, more possibility of holidays, or thin spots. I want to see some finish going on when I make a pass. Touch up guns are meant for precise application, and feathering in to 'touch up'. They do work well for some small uses, or maybe dyes, other detail purposes, but for general spraying, they are inappropriate. That little Graco gun could be set up with a larger fluid tip, and needle, might need a larger air cap then, also, but then it would need more air from the compressor that powered it.

I have met many cabinet makers who do their own finishing. I have met very few who do not suffer their own finishing, and I have met none yet, who can come anywhere near the efficiency and quality of a professional finisher. Most can end up with a passable finish, IMO. Most cabinet makers I have seen only finish their own work. Spraying is a skill that will continue to deepen after many years. After you have sprayed 50,000 gallons, or lots more, of various finishes, that little gun probably won't seem so adequate anymore.

And again, sure, it is just a little uke, but... you will get a better finish if you can get the fluid on the thing more quickly, and correctly atomized. I like the fan set up to spray fast, and as much fluid as possible without being so fast as to make holidays more likely ( from being too cautious about runs, the gun set too fast)

For cabinet work, in homes, and anywhere where there are large surfaces to cover, I will choose the 2 gallon pot with an HVLP gun. It can be set to spray almost as fast as an airless, but with more fluid control. Having to stop and refill the cup all the time is slow, tedious, and inefficient. As well, the cup setup is more tiring, and cumbersome. Gravity cup HVLPs are efficient, and do a nice job. I cannot imagine any large shop ( someone who is spraying woodwork or cabinetry, all day, every day) using a cup. That is a waste of time on numerous levels. Spraying a car is a different story, a few cups filled will cover the whole car, and breaking the job into panels, clean breaks like doors, hoods, etc, this works fine. High quality gravity cups atomize well, and a re a little safer than a pot, as far as fine finishing goes ( not a problem with wood finishing) The main reason for the HVLP high efficiency guns is to comply with low VOC regulations, though the nice ones are excellent tools.

Sorry, but I have to pretty much totally disagree with what you just said, except that the new guns are nice. I would, however, be very surprised if I would be happy spraying lacquer on any air powered gun powered by a hundred dollar Porter Cable compressor. I have one of those compresssors, I use it for my pressure pot when connected to my HVLP turbine setup. Small and tidy. I have used a larger contractor ($500) Porter Cable compressor ( extensively) for running a spray gun, and it runs non-stop while spraying. For an uke, I guess this is no problem. That same compressor will not run a sander for more than a minute or so..

You do mention filtration, that is important, and not mentioned previously. My shop air is all clean, goes through a Sharpe air conditioner system. On the cheap, you can run straight off the compressor, into a vertical metal pipe of a large diameter, maybe 2". let the air come in about 2' from the bottom of the pipe, put a 1/4 turn drain valve at the bottom of the tube for draining the collected water and contaminants, and the clean air comes from the top of the pipe. The metal pipe is important, as it encourages condensation, and the larger diameter slows the air velocity, giving more chance for things to fall out of the air stream. Small inline air filters that screw to the base of the gun can be purchased from auto paint suppliers, and paint stores that cater to professionals, for about $10, and act as final insurance that air borne contaminents from the gun do not spoil the finish, unless you have untidy gun habits.

A good glassy finish right out of the gun relies on getting the fluid to the surface quickly and well atomized. Lots of it...

I have sprayed with some of those $40 knock offs, I wouldn't even take one for free.

In learning to spray, go learn from a professional finisher, like an autobody guy that has been doing it for their whole life, or a professional lacquer finisher. There are many ways to skin a cat, and some work much better than others....
 
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one aspect of the art of spraying lacquer is developing an eye for watching the fluid hit the surface being sprayed, and connecting your neuro-muscular system to keep the fluid flow laying out into glass ASAP, without running or sagging, feeling the correct speed and overlap, adjusting your movements to what is happening at the surface, exactly where the finish is landing.
 
one aspect of the art of spraying lacquer is developing an eye for watching the fluid hit the surface being sprayed, and connecting your neuro-muscular system to keep the fluid flow laying out into glass ASAP, without running or sagging, feeling the correct speed and overlap, adjusting your movements to what is happening at the surface, exactly where the finish is landing.

All good comments Chris and I especially agree with the above statement. I have a light set up in my spray booth set up at such an angle (rather low) that it reflects off the surface, allowing me to see exactly what's being applied. Without the light arranged this way I don't think I could spray effectively.
BTW, I also use reflected light when I'm buffing.
 
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