best paint to use to hand paint a neck?

banjolelebsi

Active member
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
28
Reaction score
0
Hi all

Have made a good neck from some old pine but i am finding it very hard to get a really nice smooth finish ready to accept danish oil and poly.

I was wondering if i hand painted it black would i be able to get a good finish ie smooth and blemish free?

Is it me or is pine a pain in thr ar%e to sand smooth?

All help as usual appreciated.

Simon
 
There are a lot of ways pine might give one a pain... Wherever that pain may strike ;). It's a resinous wood - makes it smell nice, and burn nice and hot in a campfire. On the other hand, since the wood is saturated with the resin it can be tricky to finish, and you wouldn't want to burn it in a fireplace since as the resin burns it releases nasty (flammable!) stuff that you don't want in your chimney.

As for painting it, that can be challenging due to the resin. I'm sure others can offer much better advice than I can. I remember there being a YouTube video by Charles Neil (he's not a luthier) about painting pine.
 
Pine should paint beautifully, unless it has a problem with too much resin, or knots, etc. I suspect you have a nice piece that should [paint well, given that you made an instrument neck from it.

What tdo you want to end up with? and What have you done so far?
 
Pine should paint beautifully, unless it has a problem with too much resin, or knots, etc. I suspect you have a nice piece that should [paint well, given that you made an instrument neck from it.

What tdo you want to end up with? and What have you done so far?

Hi Chris

Ideally i would like to paint it black. It is for a banjolele and i would like to try and copy the finish like that of an old 1920s instrument.

So far i have profiled the neck and sanded with 80 grit but there are lots of little pock marks and gouges that i need to get rid of. Could i use a little wood filler for these? As i am going to paint it i guess the filler won't show through.

Then i will finish the sanding with grades from 100 through to 400.

Would like a gloss finish too if possible.

Thanks

Simon
 
Start with using some sort of filler for the dings, and then go to shellac which will seal in and block resins from seeping up into whatever paint you use. Shellac remains one of the very best sealer/primer coatings of all.
 
Assuming that the pock marks and gouges are from the handling of the wood, and not the wood itself.... Are the pock marks little tears from coarse cutting tools? With a well selected piece of wood, you should not need a filler. You should be able to sand the wood smooth. I think I recall Pine sometimes liking to load the abrasive paper, not necessarily gumming it up, but the dust not wanting to leave, like balling up, and making it more difficult to get a smooth surface. Kauri is especially bad like this, very soft, but yet, very slow to sand to a nice finish.

There are many ways to get a black gloss finish. Personally, for black, I use the Chemcraft lacquer system, I use industrial tints in their wash coat ( which is actually intended for metal, but works really well for this) Industrial tints can be mixed for whatever color you want, black ( you could put in a teeny drip of red to make the black more 'black') Then the wash coat is sprayed until you get the black, then top coat in whatever sheen of lacquer finish you want. Some of the high gloss, black pigmented lacquers are nice too, but may be a little trickier to get an excellent finish with. This technique can also be used in say, the Pratt& Lambert Clear 38, which is a decent, hard drying interior varnish. I would stay away from water based finishes, and stay away from 'spar' finishes. The clear 38 will tint with standard tints.

A regualar, interior, gloss enamel will also work well. Oil paint should ALWAYS be thinned, unless you have a specific reason why not to thin it, and IMO, you will know that reason when you are ready for it. ALWAYS thinned. Work out of a paint pot, not the can. It is impossible to load a brush correctly from a can. That is a whole different story, but the gist of it is that the brush is lightly dipped, the very tip only, the specific amount of finish you want to 'carry' with that 'stroke', and the brush lightly pressed against the sides of the pot. Scraping the brush against the lip of a can is a self defeating technique, fro applying paint, it is useful for removing paint from ther brush, not in loading the brush. This will take some time to learn, but is absolutely worth learning if you work with a brush.

Always thin oil paints. Naptha is a faster solvent than regular paint thinner, Turpentine is known to flow a little better, but I cannot use it as I have become sensitive to it. Regular paint thinner would be the most common choice. Japan drier is very useful for oil paints, just a few drops in your half cup or so mixed finish for a coat or 2. The pot life with Japan drier is up to 24 hours, and at 24 hours, you will feel a slight difference in handling. Do not put mixed paint back in the can.

A thin coat of thinned paint, quite thin for the first coat for better penetration, Japan drier for better, faster, more complete drying, will sand well. It may sand better than raw wood, depending on what wood. Another slightly less thin coat, and more coats, sanding betwenn coats. Keep it thin, use Japan drier. Again, do not return any finish with J. drier in it, to the can, it will ruin it, dead. Sand, and recoat with thin coats. Thinned maybe 30%, maybe more for the first coat. Very thin coats with J. drier, can sometimes be wetsanded in a few hours.

If you are inexperienced with a brush, foam brushes may be easier.
Hopefully the piece of pine you chose is less resinous than pine can be. Sometimes there is to much resin, but you should be abe to see this. If it starts looking like resin pockets, that is no good. If it looks like nice, straight grained wood, you are in good shape.

With wetsanding, and thin coats, you can get a brushed finish that will polish out , and be as glosssy as the most glossy of sprayed finishes. When you get the technique, even the brushed coats towards the end, will look like sprayed coats. No problem with getting a full blast gloss with a brush. Thin coats and wetsanding, even coats, and be careful about runs.

As you progress, wetsanding with 600 grit is good. Let the finish dry enough between coats.

forget water based finishes for a really nice gloss.

If water based finish is necessary for some reason, you might think about black transtint dye, in shellac, over the bare wood, then adding (not too much) standard tint (black) into a waterborne poly finish. Test your technique first. Latex paint is a very poor choice. The water polys, like 'Stays Clear' or, ' Enduro', for a more industrial oriented water poly, ( that was my favorite one, sprays nice) would be what I would choose for a water based black gloss finish that was meant to be handled, like a guitar neck.

Hope this helps
 
Last edited:
It is always valuable to do a test application of new finishes (that you have not worked with previously) to feel how they handle, to see how they dry, and how they feel when they are dry, to make sure they cure correctly, and to test adhesion.
 
I absolutely agree with what Rick said about shellac. It is an excellent sealer. It sands well, sticks to anything, anything sticks to it, and it can carry color, such as Transtint dyes. It makes a good undercoater for lacquer, oil paint, and water based finishes.
\
\
For an oil paint finish, I would still go with thinned oil paint for the first coat, maybe thinned 50% by volume. If I was going with shellac as a first seal coat, I might add a little black dye, that way, if you get a chip in the paint, there is more likleyhood of some black remaining.
 
I absolutely agree with what Rick said about shellac. It is an excellent sealer. It sands well, sticks to anything, anything sticks to it, and it can carry color, such as Transtint dyes. It makes a good undercoater for lacquer, oil paint, and water based finishes.
\
\
For an oil paint finish, I would still go with thinned oil paint for the first coat, maybe thinned 50% by volume. If I was going with shellac as a first seal coat, I might add a little black dye, that way, if you get a chip in the paint, there is more likleyhood of some black remaining.

I have a neck i'm finishing- i sprayed some bulls eye nonwax aerosol shellac on it to seal it, then grain filled with CA glue 2 coats, cut it back and sanded through which gave the shellac a white ragged edge to it, then when I rubbed and 'pulled' everything back into line with acetone, the white edges remained as well as discolourization. So I scrapped back this morning to wood and shall start again.

Apart from not sanding through, What should I have done to deal with the white edges?? Are the white ragged edges a sign of too thick a coat of shellac or poor quality shellac???
 
The Bullseye shellac is decent stuff. I keep the aresol cans around, for quick and dirty, it works great. I keep the cans of liquid shellac around for coating rough milled boards as thay come into my shop, to control drying, and I have flakes, for mixing my own when I want color, or am feeling particular about a finish. The last uke I finished, I admit, I sued the rattle can, cuz it works, and I was feeling lazy.


I think the white line may have to do with CA at the perimeter of the finish, not just the shellac. I would fill with CA first, and then shellac. The CA has no problem bonding to bare wood (one of the uses for Shellac. I like shellac as a bonding layer over CA, though it may not be necessary. Shellac will stick well to most anything, (why I choose it over CA) and lacquer sticks great to shellac. I cannot think of any reasons why to use shellac under CA, except maybe in theory to prevent bleed through of A through tin wood, and then I think it is better to control this with technique. I would not shellac under CA as it does not make sense to me, no reason for it. ( in my thinking)

Try CA first, sand it back, then shellac. Should be no problems there. Be sure to clean ALL the shellac dust off before lacquering. (most of the small shellac dust will go clear in lacquer. If a 'clump' of shellac dust does not fully wet with the lacquer coat, it will show as a white spot in the finished lacquer, which will require careful removal.

I do not know how the masters do it, but, in finishing a neck with CA filling, personally, I do not feel need to mask the neck until after the CA. A mistake here might be very troublesome, but I am confident. If I did mask for the fill, and ran the CA all the way to the tape, I would probably pull the masking for final sanding back of the CA, and remask for the shellac/ finish, that way, there is a cleaner (in my mind) edge where the lacquer finish meets the fret board surface.
 
I know nothing of the aerosol product and how it might be different from Bull'' Eye straight from the can but I think I would've used the CA first THEN applied your shellac.

Arrrrrrgggghhhhhh...... I do that today then. I might buy some of the bulls eye in the can too.

CA-Shellac-Nitro (that would make a good T-shirt)
 
I sanded the CA fill very smooth, then 'enough' shellac, don't go hog wild with it, then lacquer. The shellac is a bonding coat. Others here know how lacquer sticks direct to CA, I did not even try it, I like shellac, and trust it.


Oh, for refinishing, shellac helps to seal over contaminants, like silicone, wax, oil, smoke damage, tannin stains, resins.
 
oh, and careful if you are sharing spray gear between shellac and lacquer. A little lacquer leftovers in shellac doesn't hurt too much, but a tiny amount of shellac leftovers in lacquer will cause fisheyes, almost even 'theoretical' leftovers. Be clean...
 
The Bullseye shellac is decent stuff. I keep the aresol cans around, for quick and dirty, it works great. I keep the cans of liquid shellac around for coating rough milled boards as thay come into my shop, to control drying, and I have flakes, for mixing my own when I want color, or am feeling particular about a finish. The last uke I finished, I admit, I sued the rattle can, cuz it works, and I was feeling lazy.

Try CA first, sand it back, then shellac. Should be no problems there. Be sure to clean ALL the shellac dust off before lacquering. (most of the small shellac dust will go clear in lacquer. If a 'clump' of shellac dust does not fully wet with the lacquer coat, it will show as a white spot in the finished lacquer, which will require careful removal. .

Thanks- Looks like I got mixed up the order- im actually new to using shellac at all, even after about 300 guitars I somehow NEVER used it apart from sealing a few Brazilian rosewood pyramid bridges.

I will probably not bother masking the FB as I finish the FB and body separate, bolt & glue the neck to body, true the FB then fret. Alot here seem to fret first which i've never done.

I used the rattle can on a redwood top and it looks nice(see pic)- it flowed out and settled nice and evenly and the can nozzle seemed to spray neatly- i soaked it after each use though.
As an experiment I sanded back to 320 then spirited off with just de nurtured alcohol to see what would happen and it looks decent, not shiny polished but nice n flat. Ill still be spraying some nitro over it.

Also- Thanks for the shellac dust tip- i didn't know that.

scoop 064.jpg
 
oh, and careful if you are sharing spray gear between shellac and lacquer. A little lacquer leftovers in shellac doesn't hurt too much, but a tiny amount of shellac leftovers in lacquer will cause fisheyes, almost even 'theoretical' leftovers. Be clean...

I've only read about spraying Shellac-
1- Do you use the same cut or does it have to be thinned more???

2- And can you use the same nozzle / needle size as nitro spraying????
 
Also- Thanks for the shellac dust tip- i didn't know that.

View attachment 48927



The thoughts about shellac dust and lacquer are just my experience. Others may have different experience. It is not a super big issue. I have finished A LOT of wood with shellac as an undercoater, in places where there is not time to be ultra finicky about dust. On really fine finishes I have noticed this problem occasionally. (where I am looking closely) A little care and you will be fine
 
Contaminants in lacquer can be a night mare to deal with. MY HVLP is for lacquer only. My compressed air system is for "everything else". Since as Chris points out, so little shellac is used as a "sticky" coat it probably makes more sense to shoot the shellac from a rattle can. You could probably spray half a dozen ukes from a single can and keep your lacquer equipment clean.
FWIW, I would shoot your lacquer right on top of the shellac coat without sanding it.
 
One of the cool things about shellac as an undercoater for lacquer, is 'holdout', that lacquer does not melt shellac, like it does previous coats of lacquer. IMO, the shellac coat, if sanded carefully, is one more place to gain a slightly better end result in the gloss. Lacquer shrinks for a long time, months. The CA may shrink a little too, I do not have a sense for it yet, but still it is only sanded, maybe to 600 at most. 600 grit sanding scratches, in the sense of a polished finish, 600 grit is like ruts at a mud bog. The unmolested sprayed shellac coat will have a slight amount of texture to it. Lacquer will stick well to the shellac, unsanded, or cut to 1000 grit, certainly 600. A slight amount of sanding of the shellac coat, careful not to sand through, will mean that the surface that the lacquer shrinks to in time, is slightly flatter, theoretically, which means a smoother finish after time. This is a subtle difference, either, and probably other techniques will work, this is just my process. (the shellac will shrink too, which is a reason not to spray it too thick, as an undercoater. If it is way too thick, it can cause 'alligatoring' after a couple years. Don't ask me how I discovered this!)

I like to sand the shellac coat. Shellac sands beautifully. Careful at the corners...
 
Top Bottom