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chuck in ny
03-19-2013, 01:45 PM
is there a successful way to string a soprano low G or are they always best in reentrant tuning?

connor013
03-19-2013, 02:22 PM
Sure thing.

Aquila's red low G works pretty well, and Worth makes linear sets for sopranos as well (they sell them sop/con if I remember right).

If it's any help, I tried low G on a few sopranos, but it never sounded good; the tension was slack, and the bass notes were boomy.

Let us know how it works out.

hmgberg
03-19-2013, 02:33 PM
Ohta-San plays his Martin soprano in low G. I'm not sure what strings he uses (they may be Kamaka strings), but it sounds good to me.

ukemunga
03-19-2013, 02:33 PM
is there a successful way to string a soprano low G or are they always best in reentrant tuning?

No.

But not from any empirical testing I've done. Never even put a low g on a soprano though I've still got a brand new 2-year old set in a drawer. Everything I've ever read regarding the technicalities of why it is not a good thing made sense.

From string tension, to boomy bass notes, to the volume of air contained by the body for proper response... I believe it. That doesn't mean you can't try it. You might like it!

Now, everyone who has done it - please tell us why I'm wrong. And I may well be.

coolkayaker1
03-19-2013, 02:34 PM
is there a successful way to string a soprano low G or are they always best in reentrant tuning?

As Connor mentions, yes, it can be done on a soprano.

Is it successful, and are they (and any uke) best in reentrant tuning? No and yes, respectively.

connor013
03-19-2013, 02:37 PM
Ohta-San plays his Martin soprano in low G. I'm not sure what strings he uses (they may be Kamaka strings), but it sounds good to me.

That's cool -- I didn't realize.

southcoastukes
03-19-2013, 02:38 PM
We have a new linear set for Sopranos. It's in the (one line) key of G: d' g' b' e", or an octave above traditional tuning for a Baritone.

It's our XLL set; it gives a light, lively tone & excellent tension. It's a great fit for a Soprano, as it's only one note off the original Machete tuning which was d' g' b' d" (open G). If you want to take a fling at the Machete style, you can slack your first string, we have an option to add an additional "Machete" 1st with a bit more tension to the 4 linear strings and we have a dedicated Machete set.

Playing it up in the one line G changes everything. The Soprano efectively becomes a lead instrument to the rhythm of a standard C tuned Concert or Tenor Ukulele. The bright sound cuts over the C tuning perfectly. This is how the Machete and Rajao (the two Portugese instruments that ammalgamated to form the Ukulele) worked together. Here's traditional Machete tuning together with the d' g' c' e' a' of the Rajao. Take a look & listen:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7fvMuSBvfA&feature=player_embedded

southcoastukes
03-19-2013, 02:39 PM
Ohta-San plays his Martin soprano in low G. I'm not sure what strings he uses (they may be Kamaka strings), but it sounds good to me.

It's amped. It can sound fine if you do it like that.

TheOnlyUkeThatMatters
03-19-2013, 03:33 PM
My Paulele (bamboo soprano uke) sounds much better strung with low G (the Ko'olau Gold low G soprano set) than it did strung with high G.

itsme
03-19-2013, 04:09 PM
No.

But not from any empirical testing I've done. Never even put a low g on a soprano though I've still got a brand new 2-year old set in a drawer. Everything I've ever read regarding the technicalities of why it is not a good thing made sense.

From string tension, to boomy bass notes, to the volume of air contained by the body for proper response... I believe it. That doesn't mean you can't try it. You might like it!

Now, everyone who has done it - please tell us why I'm wrong. And I may well be.
I see absolutely no reason why you couldn't put low g on a soprano, although I have to tend to agree with why would you want to?

To me, soprano is all about high g. That's what it was made for.

And tenor is ideal for low g, it will sound a lot fuller, which is presumably what most people want out of low g. Low g on my Mainland red cedar tenor just sounds amazing. :)

stevepetergal
03-19-2013, 04:38 PM
There are lots of opinions out there. Some people say you can't play low G on a concert. You'll hear it's "technically" out of the question, but others have no qualms about it. Ask David Hurd, Gordon Meyer... Nothing technical about it. It's all determined by what you like.

Low G on a soprano? Hey, they make the strings, don't they! If you don't try it because of someone else's opinion, you're the one who'll never know. You might have hated it, but....

I say let's use the forum to expand our experiences. Please, try it out and give us your opinion. Then, I'll try it and give you mine.

southcoastukes
03-19-2013, 05:11 PM
... Ask David Hurd...

Kawika? Who thought a g note was too low for a Tenor? Don't think he'd give you the answer you're looking for:

http://www.ukuleles.com/SetupnCare/TenorTune.html (scroll down)

Gordon? Can't understand how he'd say that. Post something?

Bill Mc
03-19-2013, 05:59 PM
[QUOTE=chuck in ny;1218056]is there a successful way to string a soprano low G or are they always best in reentrant tuning?[/QUOTEE]

I've not tried low G on any soprano, Chuck, but if you try and don't like it you could always tune up a step to low A, D, F#, B and see how that sounds.

hmgberg
03-19-2013, 06:27 PM
It's amped. It can sound fine if you do it like that.

Yes, but I've heard it acoustically. I think a lot of why it sounds fine is attributable to his playing style, both type of music and technique. I've tried low G on a few sopranos. Strumming sounds kind of bad. Picking is okay.

hmgberg
03-19-2013, 06:39 PM
There is also this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISj9LVIZbEY&list=UUrCxkb7WxQXmOS0ay2YE_Mw&index=21

who plays a lot like Ohta-san:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WgwaS7wzig&list=UUrCxkb7WxQXmOS0ay2YE_Mw&index=12

hmgberg
03-19-2013, 06:45 PM
Here is Ohta-san unplugged (as far as I can tell):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5IIoJLAvGU

Manalishi
03-19-2013, 11:37 PM
I have used Low G on a couple of Tenors and
once,for laughs ,on a Concert scale.Tried it once
on a Soprano and it was terrible! For all the
reasons already discussed above!

stevepetergal
03-20-2013, 02:51 AM
Wrong again Dirk about David and Gordon.

southcoastukes
03-20-2013, 04:08 AM
Wrong again Dirk about David and Gordon.

Steve, did you look at the link I posted? Don't think I'm wrong about Kawika. That is unless you somehow want to make the argument that while he finds tuning "at the resonance" problematic, tuning waaaay below it is somehow O.K.

As for Gordon, please reread my post. I simply said that an opinion by him to that effect would surprise me and asked you to post something about it. I can't be wrong about my own surprise either.

Could you post something about either of those references?

OldePhart
03-20-2013, 01:04 PM
I tried a wound low G on my Kiwaya longneck (concert scale) soprano. It's different. Not particularly good, not particularly bad. It's still on there because I've been waiting to change strings until I am ready to install a pickup - but I pretty much never play it.

John

southcoastukes
03-20-2013, 07:24 PM
Steve, did you look at the link I posted? Don't think I'm wrong about Kawika. That is unless you somehow want to make the argument that while he finds tuning "at the resonance" problematic, tuning waaaay below it is somehow O.K.

As for Gordon, please reread my post. I simply said that an opinion by him to that effect would surprise me and asked you to post something about it. I can't be wrong about my own surprise either.

Could you post something about either of those references?

Hello, Steve? Hello?

southcoastukes
03-21-2013, 02:05 PM
It's kind of upsetting to realize we have someone on this forum who would deliberately post bad information - for what reason I'd rather not speculate.

Nonetheless, first for the sake of Kawika (and likely Gordon), just let me say that Steve has deliberately tried to misuse their good reputations for the sake of trying to make some point on the internet.

Kawika would not say anything like "it's all OK" to a tuning so out of range of the instruments they would be placed on. He was rather specific when it came to acoustics.

It's also a disservice to the forum in general to try to mislead people in this fashion - we're supposed to share information here, not fabricate it. So for those who may read this post in the future, looking for information on Soprano tuning, disregard anything Steve has said here.

mketom
03-21-2013, 02:28 PM
Fremont Blackline low-G's on a soprano sound pretty nice to me.

OldePhart
03-21-2013, 02:39 PM
We're getting way into the wierd zone, now - strings are cheap - my recommendation to the OP would be to try a set and see if he likes them. I wasn't particularly crazy about low G on a soprano when I tried it, but it wasn't horrible and I'm not a big fan of linear tuning anyway on anything but baritone (and then I think of it as a small guitar).

Sometimes people are too concerned with spouting theory than simply letting people decide for themselves what they do and don't like. It t'ain't rocket science and it's not the end of the world if somebody spends ten bucks for a set of strings and decides they don't like the result.

I think it was an expert that told me I couldn't find flat-wound strings for a bari and that they wouldn't sound good in standard linear G tuning if I did - along with lots of real good sounding theory - the expert was wrong. I found them and they are wonderful.

Again, try it ... if you don't like it you're out a handful of dollars. If you do like it don't let any expert convince you that you're "wrong" for liking something that "can't work."

John

southcoastukes
03-21-2013, 03:26 PM
Of course strings are cheap, John, and I don't see any "expert" telling anyone what to do. In your case, you solicted my advice, I gave you my opinion and now you say it was wrong - based on how it sounds to you? What if it sounds bad to someone else? Then are you wrong?

You miss the point, however, of what I've just said. On any forum in addition to sharing opinions, there should be an honest exchange of information. When people start fabricating statements and attributing them to respected luthiers, they've breached a basic trust that we all assume exists.

I thought more than a bit about that post, but there's a lot of misinformation on the internet, and I think if you simply allow that sort of practice to go unchallenged then you do a disservice to the other folks who participate in the dialogue.

coolkayaker1
03-21-2013, 03:53 PM
Dirk...I truly enjoy your ULA ultralight strings in D tuning (as advocated on your website for these strings) on my Martin O soprano. They're gentle and unique.

I think you make a ULA soft, too. How would those be different? If I use ULAs on a concert scale, should that be D tuning, too...or C? Thanks.

southcoastukes
03-21-2013, 04:16 PM
Dirk...I truly enjoy your ULA ultralight strings in D tuning (as advocated on your website for these strings) on my Martin O soprano. They're gentle and unique.

I think you make a ULA soft, too. How would those be different? If I use ULAs on a concert scale, should that be D tuning, too...or C? Thanks.

Hey Coolboy,

Thanks for the kind words. I think you've got the letters wrong, though. We make an XLL (Extra Light Linear), XLU (Extra Light Ukulele) and SXLU (Soft Extra Light Ukulele).

At any rate, given your proclivity for reentrant tunings, I'm guessing you mean one of those. I've already gone off topic (though "It ain't my fault!"), so drop me an e-mail on this one.

OldePhart
03-21-2013, 05:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_ENLpF3FS0&feature=youtu.be

Low-G string on a soprano. Not great. Not terrible. CERTAINLY not worth fighting about either way. :)

BTW, even though I'm not especially crazy about linear tuning on any uke, and I don't think that a low-G sounds particularly great on soprano, I can see one case where it might be a real boon. If you have an inexpensive ukulele with a high nut that sounds absolutely dreadful because the unisons are so far out, putting a low G string on it will make it less noticeable that the intonation is terrible. The intonation will still be out - but poor intonation is a little less noticable when there are no unisons in the chord. Of course, the better solution would be to have the dreadful uke set up or replace it with one that is a proper musical instrument.

If you take anything away from this video, make it this: Don't let other people decide what sounds good to you. If you are curious about something, try it, and make up your own mind! There is probably nothing in the world more subjective than music and timbre (tone, to the non-music majors). The bottom line is, if YOU like it then it's good. There are entire cultures that do not even use our western 12-tone scale but their music that sounds like noise to us is heavenly to them.

I think the string-string match would probably be a little better using Aquila tenor strings for the three treble strings. The Low-G was from a tenor set and the other strings are more what you would expect on a soprano or concert. With the small body cavity you're never going to get a perfect match with a low G but as can be seen from this video it's not as bad as the experts and their calculators might have you believe.

John

OldePhart
03-21-2013, 05:51 PM
Of course strings are cheap, John, and I don't see any "expert" telling anyone what to do. In your case, you solicted my advice, I gave you my opinion and now you say it was wrong - based on how it sounds to you? What if it sounds bad to someone else? Then are you wrong?

You miss the point, however, of what I've just said. On any forum in addition to sharing opinions, there should be an honest exchange of information. When people start fabricating statements and attributing them to respected luthiers, they've breached a basic trust that we all assume exists.

I thought more than a bit about that post, but there's a lot of misinformation on the internet, and I think if you simply allow that sort of practice to go unchallenged then you do a disservice to the other folks who participate in the dialogue.

Ahhh, Dirk, I was trying to avoid making this about you, man, really!

But, since we're going there... :)

I didn't exactly solicit your advice - I sent you a PM asking if you sold a flat wound D string for a "standard" linear baritone tuning. I knew exactly what I wanted and was very specifically asking if you could supply it.

Your response was very lengthy and I do appreciate the passion that you put into it - but it was obvious from your wording that it was based on a lot of theory and that always raises a red flag for me. I'm an engineer - albeit a software engineer - and I always get a kick out of kids with fresh engineering degrees - they're convinced they learned everything they'll ever need to know from their textbooks and professors. Give them a few years in the field and one of two things tends to happen - they become much less "certain" in their pronouncements of what can and can't be done or they abandon the engineering track and move into management, where, of course, they're absolutely certain about what can and can't be done. LOL

Anyway, you went into great detail about why you didn't sell the strings and how inappropriate the linear DGBE tuning is on a baritone uke sized instrument, etc. One thing I noticed in that treatise was how specific you were that baritones are totally unsuitable below A because of the size of the body cavity - but not all baritones are equal - some are going to be fine down to Ab, others not below Bb, if we go with the body cavity as the sole measure - not all baritones have the same physical volume, bracing really does matter, etc. The relative difference in volume between various baritones exceeds the relative difference in pitch! And we haven't even gotten into playing styles and what a given player might actually be looking for. Are the lowest notes of a linear D string on a baritone uke a little different in timbre than the other notes - yes, often - that doesn't make them defective! The problem is - there are way too many variables to make those absolute pronouncements about what "works" and what doesn't - not to mention the huge variability in the way people hear music. Your prediction was half-right - the strings don't work well on my Mainland - it definitely prefers reentrant tuning. However, the Pono sounds fine in linear G.

The other area where you were half right was the unsuitability of mixing a single wound D string with three fluorocarbon treble strings - it works very well for picking and pattern picking - not quite as well for strumming. Is it theoretically perfect? No, but the advantages can outweigh the disadvantages depending on playing style. When pattern picking one can minimize the difference in string balance while achieving the advantage of very quiet "up picking" on the G string. Even the flat wound strings have some noise so if one is exclusively pattern picking the "ideal" set is actually a flat-wound D with three fluorocarbon trebles. Again...it's those variables - and the desired end result.

Someone made a statement on one of these forums the other day that I got a real kick out of because of it's truth and it's a fundamental so easily missed. I don't remember the exact quote or even the topic of the thread, but it was basically to the effect that a consumer need speak only his own language...while a successful salesman must speak the languages of all consumers. (That's a very rough paraphrase.)

If I am the one buying strings for my ukulele, it is extremely counterproductive for all concerned for someone to explain at great length why what I want to do is impossible or inappropriate...when one doesn't have my ears and obviously hasn't even tried what I'm proposing. (And, BTW, everybody who has played my Pono with the Thomastik-Infeld chromium-steel flat wound strings loves it and I've yet to hear anyting but praise for the uke in the one or two vids I've posted using that string set.)

BTW...exactly when did you add chromium steel bari strings to your inventory? Just curious... :biglaugh:

John

southcoastukes
03-21-2013, 05:54 PM
John,

I saw your video, it was very illustrative. hmgberg also posted some videos of Sopranos with a linear C tuning. He even found a rare one of Ohtasan unamped. These all will help people make up their own minds.

While some other folks posted about acoustics (and I would happen to agree) I didn't actually broach that topic myself. Maybe I should have, however, as it seems there is among some poeple a very real "anti-tech" bias. If you think there is no technical aspect to music or instrument design, "you are wrong".

Once again, however, it seems you can't seem to understand where the "heat" comes from. Maybe this is somewhat personal in my case, because I talk and correspond with Kawika from time to time. He was helping me try to locate the Original Ukulele Method (Machete Tuning), as we are always trying to "expand horizons" as they say.

Anyone familiar with Kawika's work would know that Steve's statement was a bald faced lie (let's be honest). However, not a lot of people have read "Left-brain Lutherie", so how would they know?

It just so happened that our most recent correspondence coincided with this thread, so even though I already knew the answer, I asked him specifically if he had ever advocated this sort of thing. Here's his reply:

"That's totally incorrect. I like low G for tenors but no way for instruments smaller than that. Geez, the brainless crap that gets spread around.."

If someone straight out lied about someone you knew, John, would you find it comical? That's the heat - that's the point, not how someone wants to tune their ukulele.

Hippie Dribble
03-21-2013, 05:59 PM
um, anyone like a cupcake?

50657

southcoastukes
03-21-2013, 06:07 PM
um, anyone like a cupcake?

50657

Yes, please!

OldePhart
03-21-2013, 06:09 PM
um, anyone like a cupcake?

50657

Heh, heh, can you spare two? :)

Hippie Dribble
03-21-2013, 06:11 PM
got a whole tray full fellas...take your pick of vanilla or passionfruit icing, and sprinkles or cherries...he he..I'm not joking...my daughter has friends coming over tonight so I've gone the extra mile :)

OldePhart
03-21-2013, 06:17 PM
got a whole tray full fellas...take your pick of vanilla or passionfruit icing, and sprinkles or cherries...he he..I'm not joking...my daughter has friends coming over tonight so I've gone the extra mile :)

Woah...so you're one of those "cool dads" - far out!

southcoastukes
03-21-2013, 06:19 PM
The wife brought home a delicious looking slab of birthday cake from the office this evening w/almonds and fruit from the Vietnamese bakery. Think I'll go have a piece.

Thanks, Jon -

Hippie Dribble
03-21-2013, 06:24 PM
mmm, sounds lovely Dirk. Not cool John, just too much time on his hands and looking to be occupied. There's also the added bonus of sharing in the tasting later on.:drool:

OldePhart
03-21-2013, 06:26 PM
mmm, sounds lovely Dirk. Not cool John, just too much time on his hands and looking to be occupied. There's also the added bonus of sharing in the tasting later on.:drool:

Heh, heh. I was about to lament how I'd love to have the problem of too much time on my hands but thought better of it once I realized the only way I'm likely to reach that state... ;)

Well...don't spy too closely on your daughter but scare the guys real good... :)

John

Hippie Dribble
03-21-2013, 06:36 PM
Heh, heh. I was about to lament how I'd love to have the problem of too much time on my hands but thought better of it once I realized the only way I'm likely to reach that state... ;)

Well...don't spy too closely on your daughter but scare the guys real good... :)

John
ha ha mate...no spying here...once the trio of em get together the volume goes up to the point where it's too loud for me and I've got some dodgy hearing loss already. Na, good chance for me and Fi to grab an early night :love:

mm stan
03-21-2013, 07:44 PM
Looks like everyone is gonna get some desert tonight...woo hoo save a cupcake for me....

hmgberg
03-21-2013, 08:22 PM
um, anyone like a cupcake?

50657

Brilliant! Yes, I would love a cupcake. I don't care how it's tuned.

stevepetergal
03-23-2013, 07:57 AM
My apologies to the UU comunity for any misinterpretation of my opinions regarding this thread's original question. Please indulge me some clarification

I never said anyone advocated Low G tuning. I don't feel the need lie. I've read David Hurd's words that low G tuning is better on tenor. Sure. In the same paragraph he had mentioned concert low G tuning and said nothing bad about it, only that it was preferable on a tenor. I don't know if he makes concerts, but if he does, I'm sure he'd make one for you and string it low G if that's what you wanted.

I buy low G strings for my concert from Gordon Meyer. Does he advocate them? I have no idea. Would he say it would be better with a tenor? I don't know. Probably. I probably would, too. The size of the soundboard, and that of the sound chamber must make the tenor better capable of amplifying those (let's face it) 5 half steps and projecting that amplified sound. Please, understand that when Dirk at Southecoast Ukuleles misquotes me and misrepresents what I write, it doesn't make me a liar. When he calls me a "bald-faced" liar here on the forum, he is not being truthful. He sees I have an opinion that agrees with a large part of the ukulele community but not with him and assumes I'm dangerous or something.

A bit of evidence:

"Concert ukuleles may have the C course as an octave pair, with the second C string being higher; they may also be strung with the G note an octave lower..."
David Hurd (in context, here http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/strings.html )

Ko'olau builds highly regarded ukuleles. I've only played one, but it was wonderful (only my opinion). Ko'olau makes strings as well. They have at least three different types of low G string sets for concert. They make at least three different sets for soprano low G. Do the fine craftsmen at Ko'olau advocate low G tuning on anything besides a tenor. Can't know. They clearly don't rail against it.

After researching on just one website, I find that Aquila sells at least five different types of low G string sets for concerts, and at least three for sopranos. Do they advocate them? Don't know. Don't care. (From this evidence alone, one might think ukulele and string technology has surpassed the understanding of Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles. But I won't say that. It couldn't be proven either way, and might be only half true.)

James Hill writes in Ukulele Yes e-zine that: "...my recent experience has convinced me that Low-4th tuning doesn't work on soprano-sized instruments unless a wound 4th string is used (recommended gauge is between 0.026" and 0.030")."

Is he advocating? No. But, he clearly implies it at least works with a wound string. And he is writing about a soprano.

I have heard that Ohta San has recorded on a low G soprano. If this is true, recording seems like advocacy.

As far as "'anti-tech' bias" is concerned, I have almost twenty seven years of background in acoustic instrument technology, but believe that the tech side not only should, but must serve the musical. The modern piano is the result of technologies Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles can't even begin to comprehend, which make it an immeasurable advancement over its predecessors in sound and range of auditory capabilities (not to mention playability). Would I, therefore, say that no one should play a harpsichord or virginal again? Never! These instruments are still being built, and being played by some of the greatest musicians in the world. I'm just a technician.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me, the way Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles clearly does. I take his word that low G will sound better on a tenor than a concert, and that David Hurd agrees with him. I'll even bet that most luthiers would agree. It doesn't matter at all. What I say, in response to the original question of this thread, remains (check it out). I say give it a try. And I say it most emphatically. They make the strings, expert builders will string them this way for you (not Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles). Some of the best ukulele players accept it at least as an option, Ohta San and James Hill included. The musician and the listener, not the technical expert, must determine what they enjoy. It's almost heartbreaking to read on this thread that a player has the strings on hand for a long time and has determined to never use them because of what he has read.

Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles feels very differently. We in the technical field, have determined that the tenor scale and body size is optimum for low G tuning. Therefore, all people reading this thread must abandon the thought of anything else. To agree with Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles, you must buy into this.

We have a different kind of philosophy, he and I. I think the UU forum is not only an avenue for the exchange of ideas, but also a vehicle for expanding the experiences of the ukulele player. Even when, as I've shown, there's a place for all opinions, Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles makes it clear, with religious (almost nazi-ist) fervor and zeal, that the UU is a place where we must come to find out how we are to limit ourselves. And, he gets to determine those limits.

I have not called Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles a liar on the forum. He has incorrectly called me one. If he does not apologize for this, here on the forum, I call him a coward.

ukemunga
03-23-2013, 09:08 AM
Hi stevepetergal,

Great post. All have been interesting reading to say the least. I have no strong feelings about the initial question one way or the other and I think the nature of my post was obviously good-naturedly provocative.

And please don't be heartbroken because I have chosen not to try my low g strings on a soprano. I just figured I probably wasn't going to like it very much because I've got a low g set on a concert and don't play it much for the type of music and sound that I like. It's not for technical reasons. Like I said... give it a try, you might like it!

AND - to all, I have 2 sets of new low g strings for concert or soprano. 1 set is Worth Clear with unwound g and the other is Aquila with a wound low g. I'm not going to be using them so if you'd like a set to try it yourself just PM. Send me a (very) few buck by Paypal just so I know you're really gonna use them and I'l mail them out.

southcoastukes
03-23-2013, 01:20 PM
... I've read David Hurd's words (apologies that I cannot find them) that low G tuning is better on tenor. Sure. In the same paragraph he had mentioned concert low G tuning and said nothing bad about it, only that it was preferable on a tenor. I don't know if he makes concerts, but if he does, I'm sure he'd make one for you and string it low G if that's what you wanted....

I have not called Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles a liar on the forum. He has incorrectly called me one. If he does not apologize for this, here on the forum, I call him a coward.

No apology neccessary. You continue, even with this post to try to imply what simply isn't true. Do Kawika's own words not make it clear where he stands, both on the acoustics and his feelings toward someone who would try to twist them 180%?

When someone spends the better part of his career making a reputation based in no small part on the study of acoustics, then writes a landmark tome including those studies, anyone could understand why he categorizes what you have said and continue to say, as "brainless crap".

There is a pathology at work when someone thinks that if they continue to repeat the same lie, someone will believe it. An apology is what would be the cowardly thing to do, and I am not one of those.

coolkayaker1
03-23-2013, 01:45 PM
I think low G sucks on everything. There...I said it.:rolleyes:

ukemunga
03-23-2013, 01:51 PM
I think low G sucks on everything. There...I said it.:rolleyes:

The sky is falling!

Hippie Dribble
03-23-2013, 01:57 PM
I think low G sucks on everything. There...I said it.:rolleyes:

I agree. oh, except on eugenie's undies...oops, shucks :stop:

mketom
03-23-2013, 01:57 PM
um, anyone like a cupcake?

50657
Let get back to talking about those cupcakes. May be that some of us need some more fiber in our diets... Got a high fiber cupcake recipe Jon? ;)

Hippie Dribble
03-23-2013, 02:01 PM
Let get back to talking about those cupcakes. May be that some of us need some more fiber in our diets... Got a high fiber cupcake recipe Jon? ;)

ah, never thought you'd ask brother. Here's a little beaut I have for Dark Chocolate Cupcakes w/ Black Valentine Beans (http://beckyandthebeanstock.com/?tag=high-fiber-cupcakes). Guaranteed to keep things moving :old:

southcoastukes
03-23-2013, 08:36 PM
At this point I hope the readers will indulge me in a clarification of my own. I had thought of doing this in a thread all its own, and the topic of free and honest expression on this forum likely deserves a separate discussion. Since there were rather specific statements made on this thread, however, I think it will be easier to reference them here. My apologies to Chuck, but it wasn’t my intention to hijack a thread on Soprano Tuning.

First, there is the use of the term “expert”. It is used in a derogatory manner. I don’t know for sure if it is meant to refer to me in particular. It seems from the remarks of both Steve and John that it may be. That would be better, in my view, than if it was meant to apply to anyone who broached the subject of acoustics at all.

Expert is not a term I have ever claimed. I do have a business that sells strings, so I just might have a contribution to make. However, if you read through this thread, you will also notice that not once did I criticize anyone who might like to try the tuning in question. I simply presented another option for a linear tuning – with a video – with no associated value judgment - to let people make up their own minds. Late in the thread, I said parenthetically that I in fact, I did agree with the acoustic opinions that were offered by Munga & Bill.

Just like the two “non-experts” seemed to know everyone else’s opinions and business, they put words into my mouth as well Kawika’s. Here is what is posted on our website for anyone to see about set-ups outside the realm of resonant tuning:

At this point, we’d just like to say again that we’re not trying to tell anyone how they have to tune or play their instrument. If you are enjoying some sort of arrangement outside the parameters we’ve just outlined, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Music is about enjoyment, after all. However these pages, this whole “Guide to Tuning & Strings”, for that matter, are about achieving the best in sound quality for your instrument. We worked hard to put together an assortment of strings that constitutes the widest selection, in terms of tone and tension, that you’ll encounter anywhere. If we were then to ignore acoustics, in our eyes, it would make the whole effort useless. You can have the best quality strings, with a wonderful tone and balance, but if your tuning doesn’t mesh with the acoustics of your instrument, none of that matters. We’ve wasted our time. So while optimal sound may not be a prerequisite for having fun with the Ukulele, remember that for many players, bringing out the best in their instrument gives an immense satisfaction. Obviously, these are the people we’re providing strings for. We’ve tried first to show how it really isn’t that difficult a proposition to tune well to begin with, and then, put together a “Guide” on how to take advantage of what are actually a staggering amount of possibilities for fully resonant tunings.…

If someone asks a question like Chuck did, why would anyone want to exclude acoustics from the answer? The only reason I can see is that there are some who simply don’t want to see any opinion that may cast even an imaginary slight on their own particular preference. As we have said above on our site, slighting anyone’s preference is not our intent, but “censoring” all acoustic data to prevent an imagined slight is a disservice to those seeking information here.

Presenting acoustic data might be likened to telling someone that there is a law of gravity. I suppose you could just step back and not say anything while someone jumped off a 20 story building, but would you really? I know the comparison is an extreme exaggeration, but the principle is the same. Why refrain from offering advice that could guide people in their search for good sound? They can take it or leave it. Are those opinions worth less than those who simply say “I like this or that”? If you want to make these sorts of questions a popularity contest, then it would be better to look at what well-known tunings are popular across the board, not what people post about them on a forum. Most folks prefer to post their positive experiences.

In the end, “Try it and see if you like it” is a cop-out. If someone wanted that answer, they wouldn’t have asked for advice in the first place. And what if there were a militant fringe on the forum who continually posted something on the lines of “Don’t listen to the people who tell you what sounds good to them. There are too many people with a tin ear – no concept of good sound whatsoever. Go strictly by the acoustics!” You don’t see that, so I think it’s obvious where the true tolerance and intolerance lie.

The reaction here to my simply presenting an alternative linear set-up (that’s all I did – no value judgment!) was completely hysterical. This is a thread on Soprano tuning, but since I had nothing negative to say about any of the options presented, John went off on a PM (that’s Personal Message - not a post!) I sent him on Baritone tuning and Steve proceeded to invent Luthiers’ support to back up his side in an argument I never made. I made a couple of requests for him to clarify those statements, and waited over a couple of day’s time. I was hoping he would just admit to an error. His only response was to say in no uncertain terms that I was wrong, so I called him on it. I have since received an insulting and irrational e-mail.

Actually this was not the first. I received another before and at that time, I felt so bad about unintentionally hurting someone’s feelings, that I “self-censored” myself from making any comments at all on string questions. After a time, I did go back to offering my advice, hoping that Steve would “buck up”. However, with the constant drumbeat of “don’t let the experts tell you what to do” and a posting of an unequivocal “You are wrong” about Kawika, I have realized that I am dealing with a different animal. I would be glad to post copies of Steve’s messages or forward them to the moderators. They arrived both through the forum and to my own e-mail.

The most truly ridiculous implication is that somehow we are against anyone “expanding their horizons”. That, if anything, should be our middle name. Let’s see how many firsts we have at this point. Flat wound strings for the Ukulele, reentrant G tuning string sets for the big Ukes, G tuning sets in both Linear and reentrant for small Ukes, Machete tuning sets, a full range of sets in Cuatro tuning, and a Piccolo Bass set. Soon to be released are Plectrum tuning sets, Eddie Freeman sets and more. If there’s a tuning we don’t advocate, it’s obviously not because we’re closed to the option of new possibilities.

There are various kinds of business models. Kawika, for example, had a truly relentless drive to make the best acoustic instruments he could possibly fashion. When it comes to the Ukulele, I consider him to be the genius of our generation, and his work has influenced those outside the 4-string world as well. Steve, he would not make a “low G” concert for you! First, because he has retired. But second, because the painstaking multi-multi step process he used to build his instruments for the best acoustic response possible meant he likely didn’t make a fortune doing it. If his work did not place profit at the pinnacle, how could someone like you presume to say he would take all that time and effort to build an instrument that he knew would never live up to his own standards. Steve, please, please refrain from wild speculation about people you know little or nothing about, and presenting it as fact!

And John, I had thought you were someone who one could at least respectfully disagree with, but you also rail at the “experts”. It seems, however, you have enough expertise to “know” for a certainty what good sound is and is not, based solely on how you hear it. You also are enough of an expert to tell me how to run my string business. Everyone has their own model. Mine is probably pretty close to Kawika’s. We turn a profit, but our philosophy is to present only strings we feel are acoustically appropriate. Our website has a “Philosophy” page, and if you’re that interested, I suggest you read it. I won’t retire on the income from the string business, but it makes a profit, and I’m happy with it. So I hope you’ll take this with good humor:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSeuDDzjIB8


In the end, I hope that all can post their opinions on this forum without the insults, either direct or implied, that we have seen in this thread. And I also hope that we can be honest with the information we give to others.

Hippie Dribble
03-23-2013, 09:00 PM
Thankyou for that summary Dirk.

I would just like to say, as a friend of all three parties involved in this discussion, that I have respect for all of you. That said, I think we are inevitably on shaky ground when an opinion is presented and clung to in a dogmatic way. There is room at the table for most all of us, and what is favourable to one set of ears may not be so to anothers.

Finally, I have tried many string sets over the years and I believe the strings produced by southcoast to be the best I have ever used. The range of thicknesses, tensions and tunings that can be achieved from the southcoast catalogue is the widest on the planet. I will continue to use them. I trust Dirk's knowledge and advice implicitly, he hasn't bum steered me yet.

stevepetergal
03-24-2013, 05:43 AM
I'm not going to criticize the last post by Dirk of Southcoast Ukuleles. Not even reading it.

"There are four courses of strings on an ukulele; each course may have as few as 1 or as many as 3 strings in it. Typically soprano and baritone ukuleles have a total of four strings. Concert ukuleles may have the C course as an octave pair, with the second C string being higher; they may also be strung with the G note an octave lower..."

I believe this is written by David Hurd.(?) If not, he should do something about it, because he is being credited with it on the Kawika web page below.

http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/strings.html

Again, I say try it, you may hate it.

Your's truly,
the bald faced liar (until proven otherwise)

OldePhart
03-24-2013, 10:05 AM
First, there is the use of the term “expert”. It is used in a derogatory manner. I don’t know for sure if it is meant to refer to me in particular. It seems from the remarks of both Steve and John that it may be. That would be better, in my view, than if it was meant to apply to anyone who broached the subject of acoustics at all.

I can't speak for Steve, but I can say that I quite specifically tried to keep your name out of the context of my post - you were the one who decided to insert it - and proceed to do so by mischaracterizing the PM I sent you. You opened that post saying I'd asked your advice and that was either a deliberate lie or illustrates a remarkably egotistical view of your own importance. As I've pointed out - I specifically asked you if you carried a flat-wound D string. I did mention why I wanted it, and in fact told you that I was quite thrilled with the mix of strings that I had come up with but felt that a flat wound D would be even better than the round wound D I was already using. You then proceeded to tell me that you didn't have it (that would have been sufficient) but then you went on to explain for several long paragraphs why the tuning I'd already said I was quite happy with was unsuitable.

So, yes, since you insist, I do use the term "expert" as derogatory when applied to you - but you are the one who wanted that made public; I was quite specifically keeping your name out of it. It was obvious from that post that you consider yourself the expert. Doesn't answering a simple question about the availability of something that I've already indicated suits my needs with long paragraphs explaining why it can't suit my needs pretty much define someone who regards themselves as an expert?


Expert is not a term I have ever claimed. See last sentence above...



Just like the two “non-experts” seemed to know everyone else’s opinions and business, they put words into my mouth as well Kawika’s.
Again, I can't speak for Steve, but I never put words in your mouth at all. Nor did I claim to know anyone else's opinions. I do claim pretty extensive knowledge of my own opinions and that's all I've ever claimed! I did report accurately the content of PM's that I'd exchanged with an anonymous "expert". Again, you were the one that identified yourself as the "expert" I was talking about - and you completely misrepresented the nature of the PM exchange as well.



Here is what is posted on our website for anyone to see about set-ups outside the realm of resonant tuning:
...
Right...might be interesting to visit the "way back machine" to see exactly how long that's been there...but I really haven't the time to waste.


If someone asks a question like Chuck did, why would anyone want to exclude acoustics from the answer? The only reason I can see is that there are some who simply don’t want to see any opinion that may cast even an imaginary slight on their own particular preference.

Thank you for making my point for me (with the last sentence above). Of course, my question is, why would anyone want to exclude everything but acoustics from the answer?


As we have said above on our site, slighting anyone’s preference is not our intent, but “censoring” all acoustic data to prevent an imagined slight is a disservice to those seeking information here.
And again, I wouldn't speak for Steve (this is getting tiresome, BTW) but I never did any such thing. All I did was mention a case where an anonymous expert, without being asked, presumed to know more than I did about what I wanted. Apparently, you couldn't abide the idea that a mere musician might actually think for him or herself.


...
Actually this was not the first. I received another before and at that time, I felt so bad about unintentionally hurting someone’s feelings, that I “self-censored” myself from making any comments at all on string questions. After a time, I did go back to offering my advice, hoping that Steve would “buck up”. However, with the constant drumbeat of “don’t let the experts tell you what to do” and a posting of an unequivocal “You are wrong” about Kawika, I have realized that I am dealing with a different animal. I would be glad to post copies of Steve’s messages or forward them to the moderators. They arrived both through the forum and to my own e-mail.

And I'm not Steve, so why do you try to paint me with his actions? I guess anyone who doesn't agree that a calculator is the most important tool a musician needs is "the enemy" in your eyes.



The most truly ridiculous implication is that somehow we are against anyone “expanding their horizons”. That, if anything, should be our middle name. Let’s see how many firsts we have at this point. Flat wound strings for the Ukulele,

Yeah, that's an interesting point, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question a couple of posts back... Just exactly when did you add that "innovation?" Was it before or after I made several posts about Thomastik-Infeld chromium steel flatwound strings on my bari after you'd told me you couldn't supply a flatwound bari string because the tuning was inappropriate? :biglaugh:



reentrant G tuning string sets for the big Ukes,

Yeah, another of those "I wonder when" cases. I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure it was long after several people began raving about the various successes they'd had with such tunings using fishing leader and various mixes of classical guitar strings...



And John, I had thought you were someone who one could at least respectfully disagree with, but you also rail at the “experts”. It seems, however, you have enough expertise to “know” for a certainty what good sound is and is not, based solely on how you hear it.

Again...I only mentioned our exchange to make a point that at the end of the day musician's have to be in control of their music and they have to use what makes them happy, not what makes someone else happy. I also tried to keep your name out of it. You're the one who's ego is so badly bruised by any challenge to your edicts, it seems. And yes, I "know" for an absolute certainty what sounds good to me. Guess what - every musician has not only that right, but that responsibility. Are you really that threatened by the thought that somebody might like a different sound, or might value a quiet string for a specific application, or...shoot, I could go on forever.

I don't "rail at experts" as a general rule. I do "rail at experts" when their "expertise" seems to be restricted to recommending their own products to the exclusion of all else, using "acoustics" as an excuse, until it becomes obvious that a significant number of people aren't going to follow their lead, then changing their tune and pretending to have "innovated" the products they formerly recommended against. Yeah, that kind of "expert" I can do without.


You also are enough of an expert to tell me how to run my string business.

Actually, I just quoted a pretty well-accepted business tenant. I'd never to presume to tell you how to run your business. It's amazing how you love to mischaracterize everything someone else says, then whine that Steve is doing that to you. LOL Though...now that I think about it...I'm quite confident in telling you the only way any business is going to win my patronage and nothing I've seen you do comes close to that mark.

Think for a moment - I was very obviously not pointing any fingers at you when I posted about my experience...I can't imagine a businessman intentionally inserting himself into that, proceeding to lie about, or at least very strongly mischaracterize, the previously anonymous communications mentioned. What possible "win" is there for the businessman? None whatsoever - he is absolutely going to alienate many people doing that. The only way it possibly makes sense is if his business model is wrapped around the idea that he is the be-all and end-all of expertise on the product being discussed and, honestly, after reading dozens and dozens of your posts inserted into every thread dealing with strings...I think maybe that is your business model.


So I hope you’ll take this with good humor:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSeuDDzjIB8


Okay, it's a funny bit. I'll accept it in good humor as long as you keep in mind that there are four fingers pointing back at you... :biglaugh:



In the end, I hope that all can post their opinions on this forum without the insults, either direct or implied, that we have seen in this thread.
It would be a nice ideal...wouldn't it. Kind of ironic though considering that most of your post was just one long insult... (Heck, just being lumped with Steve is an insult - just kidding, man.)

John

d-mace
03-24-2013, 11:00 AM
Reminds me of coolkayaker's video. Especially the last line!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37JWkDOtzY4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

OldePhart
03-24-2013, 11:27 AM
Reminds me of coolkayaker's video. Especially the last line!


BWAAA-HAAAA. I hadn't seen that before! Pretty funny. "As welcome as an undertaker at a 50th class reunion" - I'm going to have to remember that one!

John

Nicko
03-24-2013, 11:34 AM
Reminds me of coolkayaker's video.

Priceless!

SamUke
03-24-2013, 11:51 AM
That was awesome!


QUOTE=d-mace;1222769]Reminds me of coolkayaker's video. Especially the last line!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37JWkDOtzY4&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/QUOTE]

stevepetergal
03-24-2013, 01:43 PM
[QUOTE=southcoastukes;1220355]

Anyone familiar with Kawika's work would know that Steve's statement was a bald faced lie (let's be honest). However, not a lot of people have read "Left-brain Lutherie", so how would they know?


Post from Kawika's web page:http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/strings.html


"There are four courses of strings on an ukulele; each course may have as few as 1 or as many as 3 strings in it. Typically soprano and baritone ukuleles have a total of four strings. Concert ukuleles may have the C course as an octave pair, with the second C string being higher; they may also be strung with the G note an octave lower."


Dirk doesn't claim to be an expert. He shouldn't. C'mon Dirk, I know you're reading. You had the courage to call me a "bald faced" liar, here on the forum. Buck up.

Someone, send Dirk a dozen cupcakes. Not Chocolate. CROW. Send the bill to Southcoast Ukuleles.

southcoastukes
03-24-2013, 04:23 PM
Steve,

I can see how you may have looked at that page and drawn the wrong conclusion. It is meant to show the "typical" stringing for ukuleles.

If you were unaquainted with Kawika or his work, it might be possible to misunderstand his intent, and so you have my apology.

grendel1972
03-25-2013, 03:32 AM
I thought better of my original post here (no need to pour fire on flames), but I will re-post that I respect you taking the high road Dirk (and I would hope I'm not alone in that sentiment).

southcoastukes
03-25-2013, 08:14 AM
I thought better of my original post here (no need to pour fire on flames), but I will re-post that I respect you taking the high road Dirk (and I would hope I'm not alone in that sentiment).

Thanks for the kind words G - I appreciate them a lot.

John,

I had to wait awhile before replying to your thread because surprisingly, I realized I couldn’t actually be too specific about some of the dates you were so curious about. I’m glad you brought it up, however, as we have a history that we’re very proud of, and one we should probably make people more aware of. If you’ll indulge me for a while, I’d like to take the opportunity to tell a little about it here.

The paragraph I quoted from our website was easy – that’s only been there since the beginning of this year. That along with the Philosophy page I mentioned try to make clear that we do not offer strings for every tuning, and why we are not inclined to go that route.

The timetable for the string offerings was where I was not as clear. I suppose you could stretch things and say it started in the early ‘90s when I moved down to Central America. Playing the Baritone sized Cuatro Venezolano was a revelation, and so experimenting with more resonant tunings on instruments of that size began then. I also met my current partner, Omar Corrales, one of the few classically apprenticed luthiers you can find anywhere in the world today. He had studied lutherie in Cremona and apprenticed with Contreras (2) in Madrid.

He had some knowledge of Ukuleles, had even built a few of the small sizes, but his experience when it came to 4-stringed instruments was primarily with the Cuatros. As we discussed custom instruments based on design elements of both the Cuatro and Ukulele, however, he expressed surprise at some of the typical tunings I told him of. He outlined to me in basic form the principles of instrument design, including stringing / tuning, that he had learned in Cremona. At that point, I decided I needed to do some experimenting on my own before going any farther.

Time went on; toward the end of the decade I left Central America for work in both the U.S. and Mexico. While I still hadn’t gotten to the custom order yet, I had done quite a bit of experimenting with strings, especially on Baritones. In the U.S., I was restoring and selling vintage Ukuleles and Tenor Guitars on a regular basis, so that gave me a continually rotating stable of instruments to work with.

Then, shortly after moving back to Louisiana in 2005 we went through the Katrina disaster. Events like that always change your life, and nothing was certain then, not even if we would ever be able to go home. Sitting in the motel room during the exile days, I first thought of simply visiting my old friends down south to pass a little time in a place with a sense of normalcy. Then it occurred to me that maybe something productive could come of the visit, and so when I went, Omar and I decided to take the concepts we had been kicking around and bring them to life.

I remember very vividly at that point the work on the string development. It was motivated primarily by some of the unique design features of our “instruments to be”, and the fact that I just didn’t like the commercial string options available. I would work all day at the kinds of things you would imagine in a disaster zone, splitting time between estimating furniture losses in moldy, abandoned houses for the insurance companies in my Hazmat gear and working on my own house. I would work late into the night, night after night, on the strings. It was a great stress reliever! By that time we had been able to return, and had found a small apartment in “the sliver by the river”, the one unflooded zone in New Orleans. We had taken my instruments with us when we had fled, so I still had a nice platform for testing the formulations, and before long Omar’s instruments began arriving. All the basic string offerings were formulated by the end of 2006.

First things first, however, and with no infrastructure, limited access to building materials, and no housing for the construction workers themselves, it wasn’t until the spring of 2007 that we were finally able to move into our partially finished house. Then it was onto the instrument offerings. We hadn’t actually thought too much about selling the strings themselves.

We started selling instruments locally and occasionally on eBay in 2007-2008. We didn’t actually put up our first website until 2009! That’s the part that surprised me. I hadn’t stopped to think how recent all this really is. That first website had sound samples of the instruments, including some (called out specifically) with the flat wound strings. As the site also specifically referred to our recommended string options for these instruments, we were routinely supplying Longneck Tenors with Ukulele reentrant B flat & A tunings & Baritones with the reentrant G, linear B flat (including sometimes w/ flat wound strings) as well as Linear C set-ups. How could I have omitted that latter set-up on from the list of our firsts? We were the first there as well, and it’s been a huge success!

By the end of the year, we had also decided to sell strings, so our first string site went up in late 2009. It remained basically unchanged until recently. If you want a key, simply look at the listings. Those with a “New” symbol next to them were listed in our recent update. The others have been listed on our site since 2009. We have almost 40 different sets available at the moment – we almost doubled our offerings when we put up the new site.

So since I actually left out a number of our other firsts as well, let me try to list them again. We were the first to offer true mixed material treble sets for better balance in tension, feel and tone. With Ukulele reentrant sets, we were first to offer a full range of options. These consist of sets that are not only recommended for the conventional D & C tunings, but also (depending on your scale) are recommended for E flat, B flat A & G tunings. We were first to offer Linear C sets for Baritone (and this set is also used for a first offering on one of Kawika’s favorites as well, the Linear D tuning on a Tenor). We also promote some of these sets for Linear E flat tunings - another first. We were first to offer flat wound sets for the Ukulele and a set for Piccolo Bass. All that was online in 2009.

This year we have Plectrum & Eddie Freeman Special sets on the way. Already listed is another new batch of premiers: the first full range of Cuatro tuning sets (6 in total, including the first sets for C tuning on a Baritone) the first G tuning sets in reentrant for Sopranino and Linear for Soprano, and the first Machete tuning set in the last 100 years. This last offering brings me full circle in this thread.

As I mentioned, we don’t offer set-ups for everything. In spite of the huge range of offerings we do present, and the fact we cover most of the conventional uses, there are some common formulations we have left out. It has nothing to do with us being able to get material. Our practice since the beginning has been that if someone asks us about one of these, we try to do more than just say no. We’ll give the reasons why we don’t offer it and present the other options we offer. In the years we’ve been doing this, I can count on one hand with a couple of fingers left over when this practice has upset someone.

We did basically the same thing on this thread. We presumed that another linear set-up for Soprano might be of interest. Often when we make these suggestions it is something that the questioner hasn’t really thought about. Whether they accept the recommendation or not, they are almost universally pleased that we would offer the information.

So in case you’ve forgotten the beginning of this thread, let me just re-post the same video we posted there. This tuning has the range of notes that a classically trained luthier would apply to an instrument of the size and scale of a Soprano. If it sounds as good to you as it does to us - jump back to the 1st page - you can read a little bit about it there. It should be of special interest to guitar players and fans of the Linear G tuning on the Baritone.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7fvMuSBvfA&feature=player_embedded

It’s not specifically what Chuck asked about, but offering other options, new and ancient, is one of the things we do.

stevepetergal
03-25-2013, 11:39 AM
Kawika would never build you a concert and string it low G? I've misinterpreted them again. Quote Kawika website below:

Concert Ukuleles:
We normally make concert ukuleles with four strings, but by request we also make some with five strings. In such a case, the third course becomes an octave pair with the second C string an octave higher than the normal middle C. The five string concert is an interesting instrument because of the extra sweetness that the high C gives it; further, the fourth course G may also be replaced with a 0.029" wire-wrapped nylon-core string and tuned an octave lower to give it a wider picking range and richer sound.

found in context here:
http://www.ukuleles.com/Sales/gallery.html

Wait! Did they say a wider picking range and richer sound?

stevepetergal
03-25-2013, 12:22 PM
"Concert ukuleles generally are tuned the same as sopranos but may have the third course strung as an octave pair, with the second C string an octave higher as described above. They may also be tuned with the fourth course note (G) below C. In this tuning, the notes are identical to the first four strings of the classical guitar when it is fretted on the first fret.

In Hawaii, tenor ukuleles are also tuned GCEA like the soprano or concert, but many other tunings are possible depending on the total number of strings."
- David Hurd -
Left-Brain Lutherie 2004
(Chapter 1, pg. 4)

Hmm... almost sounds like an advocation when misinterpreted correctly.

Dirk, I accept your apology completely. I hope everyone here on the forum understands one must be quite certain before calling someone else a bald faced liar.
I will write the truth whenever I can. And, when I give my opinion, I will call it such. I sincerely try to be truthful, but will admit that I am rather stupid, as Dirk's apology suggests I am.

grendel1972
03-25-2013, 01:24 PM
"Concert ukuleles generally are tuned the same as sopranos but may have the third course strung as an octave pair, with the second C string an octave higher as described above. They may also be tuned with the fourth course note (G) below C. In this tuning, the notes are identical to the first four strings of the classical guitar when it is fretted on the first fret.

In Hawaii, tenor ukuleles are also tuned GCEA like the soprano or concert, but many other tunings are possible depending on the total number of strings."
- David Hurd -
Left-Brain Lutherie 2004
(Chapter 1, pg. 4)

Hmm... almost sounds like an advocation when misinterpreted correctly.

Dirk, I accept your apology completely. I hope everyone here on the forum understands one must be quite certain before calling someone else a bald faced liar.
I will write the truth whenever I can. And, when I give my opinion, I will call it such. I sincerely try to be truthful, but will admit that I am rather stupid, as Dirk's apology suggests I am.

I would think it goes without saying, but there is a difference between saying what something generally is and advocating for that thing. You can be as selective with your quotations are you like, but David Hurd saying that concerts can be (or have historically been, or are usually, etc, etc) tuned a certain way doesn't mean that David Hurd advocates that people use that tuning.

stevepetergal
03-25-2013, 03:06 PM
I would think it goes without saying, but there is a difference between saying what something generally is and advocating for that thing. You can be as selective with your quotations are you like, but David Hurd saying that concerts can be (or have historically been, or are usually, etc, etc) tuned a certain way doesn't mean that David Hurd advocates that people use that tuning.

I'm not being selective at all. I'm searching out everything Mr. Hurd has written on the subject. It is all very consistent. He doesn't advocate any tunings that I can find (so far). He simply lists tunings that are used. If I find anything he's written saying it shouldn't be done, or even suggesting such, I give you my word, I will post it. What you say is exactly what I've said. Mr. Hurd doesn't advocate low G tuning on a concert. He includes it in the same list of tunings we all use. But, my honesty was publicly tarred and feathered because this information doesn't exist. But, clearly it does.

I have even said, on this thread, I have no reason to disagree and plenty of reason to agree with the theory that the tenor is a better instrument for this tuning. But, to everyone out there, if you want to try it, it's okay to try it. And, I'm using as illustration of my belief, the words of a reviered person in the field. That's all.

Here's my belief: I think any ukulele player has the right to try any tuning they want. If you want to try a low F, a low E,... try it out. Eventually, you will become unhappy with the sound. Then it's time to head back up the scale. I only think we should urge the members of the UU to avoid trying things that will damage their instruments. i.e. Don't tune your C strings up to the key of G. You may send your bridge on an unscheduled flight!

There exists a video of an ukulele made out of an Altoids tin. If we limit ourselves to the accepted practices and technical rules of ukulele building, we have to make a list of all the things wrong with this. But, (even though I didn't like the sound of it) I think the builder should be proud, be commended. It probably gives him real joy!

Let's promote that kind of joy, rather than playing schoolyard bullies.

coolkayaker1
03-25-2013, 03:13 PM
is there a successful way to string a soprano low G or are they always best in reentrant tuning?
:rolleyes:Chuck in ny...you sure know how to stir the pot. :)

chuck in ny
03-25-2013, 06:39 PM
you can say that again. i'm sorry i asked in the first place.
the low G tuning sounds right to my ears, picking up the instrument and doing finger drills and learning to play the chords. i think however that i am avoiding the complexity and proper playing technique inherent to the ukulele. C becomes the low string. i can live with that. i am going with reentrant tuning.

coolkayaker1
03-25-2013, 06:46 PM
i am going with reentrant tuning.

Thank God. :D

stevepetergal
03-26-2013, 02:14 AM
Good for you, Chuck.

grendel1972
03-26-2013, 02:18 AM
you can say that again. i'm sorry i asked in the first place.
the low G tuning sounds right to my ears, picking up the instrument and doing finger drills and learning to play the chords. i think however that i am avoiding the complexity and proper playing technique inherent to the ukulele. C becomes the low string. i can live with that. i am going with reentrant tuning.

David Hurd would approve. ;-)

stevepetergal
03-26-2013, 02:20 AM
David Hurd would approve. ;-)

Or would he?