Thoughts on HH glue

Pete Howlett

Pete Howlett

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I have to do some veneering on a curved surface and the only way is hand or hammer veneering so I put together a glue pot and have been playing around with HH glue. The only real benefit I have experienced is very neat clean-up. Everything else is a chore - heating the double boiler, maintaining a constant 150 degrees, making sure components are preheated. I've been doing mainly veneer work but attached a couple of fingerboards - repositioning is easy using a steam iron to loosen the glue because the fingebroard misaligned. I will do a build with this stuff just to say I've done it but I was back on the Titebond today.... You are on a very shallow learning curve with this stuff thanks to the enormous amount of technical data on the internet. Thanks to all who have posted because I am pretty sure i must have read it! However, I remain unconvinced about it's overall superiority to other glues.
 
It's not that HHG is superior to other glues, it's that HHG is the right glue for certain applications. For me, a key benefit is the lack of a visible glue line, which is why I use it to join plates, stack heels, fix cracks and perform other operations where the joint shows. I also use it to attach necks and bridges to bodies to make any repairs easier to do. Otherwise I use LMI instrument glue for most operations, and CA and epoxy when they make sense.
 
If I pop some corn does anybody want to join me to watch the fun here?
 
The biggest problem I have with the HHG is in winter when my shop is cold. I have to heat the materials and work fast. I'm not using a double boiler but just a Revel brand water heating kind of a deal, kind of like a mini crock pot, I got from the thrift store for a couple bucks. It holds a very steady 150 deg. Ive really gotten to like building with the HHG.
 
bbycrts said:
If I pop some corn does anybody want to join me to watch the fun here?
Click to expand...

Absolutely... I love that Pete likes to live dangerously. :D
 
Koa Soprano said:
If you use it a lot you'll get used to it. I made a few violins with nothing but HHG and heating up the glue, etc, became second nature.
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Violins need to have a glue that is reversible , HHG is that glue. The merits of all glues have been discussed on this board and I don't believe much is going to change.
 
I don't really understand the 'issues' with it. I pop some dry beads in a pot, cover with water and an hour or so later I switch the heater on. I can run it all day and not check the temperature. Actually I haven't checked the temperature of the water for near on 2 years! I must do it sometime. My batch of glue is nearly 7 years old. In the dry state it never goes off. I glue bridges on using it just using finger pressure for a few minutes. No clamps. Not even a rubbed joint. Wonderful stuff. As someone stated, it dries to a very thin glue line. You can also reglue parts without having to clean off the old glue. It dries hard like glass. PVA is rubber in comparison.
 
Michael N. said:
I don't really understand the 'issues' with it. I pop some dry beads in a pot, cover with water and an hour or so later I switch the heater on. I can run it all day and not check the temperature. Actually I haven't checked the temperature of the water for near on 2 years! I must do it sometime. My batch of glue is nearly 7 years old. In the dry state it never goes off. I glue bridges on using it just using finger pressure for a few minutes. No clamps. Not even a rubbed joint. Wonderful stuff. As someone stated, it dries to a very thin glue line. You can also reglue parts without having to clean off the old glue. It dries hard like glass. PVA is rubber in comparison.
Click to expand...

I have often heard some people say that PVA glue dries like rubber. To test this out, I put a large drop of PVA and the same for the HHG on a hard plastic surface and let both cure for 2 days. They both seemed very hard and neither had any give to them. I then proceeded to smash both glue spots with a 16 oz. steel hammer. Both of them where shattered to small crystal like bits. I saw no evidence of any rubberized portions.
 
Now repeat the experiment with the drops of glue heated to 120 F (the temperature outside on many days in Phoenix, for instance) or 130 F (a temperature often exceeded in the trunk of a car on a hot day almost anywhere in the US).

LMI PVA does dry closer to the hardness of HHG. Titebond not so close. And do this with a Brinell hardness tester if you want real numbers.
 
BlackBearUkes said:
I have often heard some people say that PVA glue dries like rubber. To test this out, I put a large drop of PVA and the same for the HHG on a hard plastic surface and let both cure for 2 days. They both seemed very hard and neither had any give to them. I then proceeded to smash both glue spots with a 16 oz. steel hammer. Both of them where shattered to small crystal like bits. I saw no evidence of any rubberized portions.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your experiment. That is very interesting. At times I feel like a hack for not exploring HH glue because of its traditional nature and the many many (many) comments here on the forum. I probably still will give it a shot because it never hurts to expand one's arsenal and since I want to learn as much as I can along my journey it might be silly to skip over the experience.

Pete, I was surprised to see you start a glue thread - and I was tempted to sit back, pop some corn, crack a beer, and watch the fireworks. But it has been a pleasant and informative surprise to see that the responses have been more well-tempered and less heated than I had expected. Nice.
 
HHG has good commercial buzz, too...

And if you're going to use it, then just get a real glue pot and stop worrying about temperatures and all that.

http://thebestthings.com/newtools/hide_glue.htm

I've had one of the one quart Hold-Heet models for about thirty years or so. I'd probably have gone through a dozen crappy crock pots in that time. I'm going to get the smaller Hold-Heet for my traveling lutherie setup for doing festivals.
 
Rick Turner said:
Now repeat the experiment with the drops of glue heated to 120 F (the temperature outside on many days in Phoenix, for instance) or 130 F (a temperature often exceeded in the trunk of a car on a hot day almost anywhere in the US).

LMI PVA does dry closer to the hardness of HHG. Titebond not so close. And do this with a Brinell hardness tester if you want real numbers.
Click to expand...

Anybody who leaves their guitar or uke in a hot car trunk deserves what they get regardless of the glue. I've had expensive violins with this very problem come into my shop to be put back together because ALL the hide glue failed. Even the case was coming apart. Does that mean hot hide glue is back, no. It can only take so much, just like any glue. Numbers? I don't need any stupid numbers, just experience and a light common sense.
 
Can you builders recognize most types of glues used on instruments that come in for repair work? I only assume you do based on your comments and can see the benefit of that knowledge when approaching a project on your benches.
 
BlackBearUkes said:
Anybody who leaves their guitar or uke in a hot car trunk deserves what they get regardless of the glue. I've had expensive violins with this very problem come into my shop to be put back together because ALL the hide glue failed. Even the case was coming apart. Does that mean hot hide glue is back, no. It can only take so much, just like any glue. Numbers? I don't need any stupid numbers, just experience and a light common sense.
Click to expand...

But Hide Glue can take a LOT more heat than any PVA. In fact it can take serious heat without failure.
 
I am goong to persevere and get a proper glue pot. They are hard to source here in the UK tho.
 
No need for a 'proper' glue pot. They tend to be very large for musical instrument makers needs anyway. I've used a baby bottle warmer for around 10 years:



I'm on my second one. A few quid off the bay. That model is a good one because it has a wider heat range than some of them. The setting on the picture is about right for the glue. You can dispense with the food warming insert and just use a jar with lid. The insert just stops the water from evaporating so that you don't have to keep topping it up.
It's as good as you will ever need. I haven't had any glue failures reported apart from one Bridge that started to come off. Not bad for numerous instruments. . . and the bridge was made of Ebony.
 
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Found one in UK about 40% more expensive than US but will give it a go. Maintaining the water level in my current set-up and the moisture it is putting into the atmosphere is a pain. I like this instant tack and hand held 'pressure', clkean up etc. I guess it's like anything - just get the technology right and you are OK. Plus I am moving towards a slower build process. I am sure I will convert as long as I persevere :) My hammer veneering project is the driver for this. It's going to be fun making .85mm veneer to lay up :)
 
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