Amplified Ukes?

camperman

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I'm a little confused when someone reviews an electro acoustic ukulele and says "It's awesome when it's plugged in" Do they mean it sounds just like it does unplugged only louder or do they mean it sounds very good but totaly different to when it's unplugged?

I've been trying out various uke and amp combinations as well as various pickups and I'm struggling to find a combination which when it's plugged in and amplified sounds just like the unplugged uke only louder.

Am I expecting too much?
 
I have a Les Paul. Unamplified, it sounds like a mahogany Uke. Not as broad a sound as one without the thick vanish, but it sounds like a Uke. Amplified, it sounds like a Les Paul. I went to a friend's house and we ran it through an old Crate with all kinds of effects and it sounded like a high pitch electric guitar. :)

I imagine my kala travel or Koaloha wouldn't be so dramatic.
 
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You need to make sure you use an acoustic amp or possibly a keyboard amp. These will give you a much more natural sound. An amp made for an electric guitar will definitely color the sound. Also, if your uke has a passive pickup, you will need to use an external preamp.
 
Under saddle piezo transducers naturally have quite a bit of compression - and then the preamp often adds additional compression. Properly EQ'd the MiSi pickup, for example, seems like it sounds "acoustic but louder"...right up until you A/B it with a simultaneous recording from a good condenser microphone or even an under soundboard transducer. Then, you realize just how much compression there is.

That's not always a bad thing - it increases apparent sustain and the reduced dynamic range probably helps reduce handling noise - but, if you're looking for "acoustic but louder" the best choice is a good condenser microphone and the second is, IMHO, an under soundboard transducer.

John
 
Thanks everyone. My question came about as I've been struggling to make my Kala KA STGE-C sound the same plugged in. I hear many musicians using electro acoustic instruments amplified that have sounded good to me and was puzzled why I couldn't achieve the same results. I'd already realised about the need to use an acoustic amp and was a little disappointed that things still didn't sound natural. The explanation about compression has enlightened me.
 
As a designer of pickups I do not understand nor agree with the statement:

"Under saddle piezo transducers naturally have quite a bit of compression - and then the preamp often adds additional compression."

It's simply not true as a broad statement and it's even less true in specifics. I'd like to know where that information comes from; it reads like an observation of less than optimized systems and no experience with better pickups. It's certainly not based in an understanding of how pickups actually work or the issues in interfacing them to amps and speakers.

In fact, a properly installed undersaddle pickup has more dynamic range than the acoustic instrument itself...for better or worse. You can certainly get some dynamic limiting and clipping in the first stage of electronics if you don't have enough headroom, but that can be dealt with using higher voltage preamplification. It's all about headroom...

And I'd argue that the installations I do of a customized D-TAR Timberline pickup in my own Compass Rose ukes would meet most people's requirements that the amplified sound equal the acoustic sound if played through a decent PA or "acoustic amplifier".

But it isn't inexpensive...
 
I'd like to know where that information comes from;

From personal experience over several years doing simultaneous A/B tests using dry recordings with a UST pickup in one channel and a decent condenser microphone in the other. This includes two tenor ukuleles with factory installed MiSi pickups (one of which has received several complements for how natural the pickup sounds), a not very expensive Lanikai 8-string tenor with factory pickup and preamp, and a number of guitars with factory systems over the years, including Taylors (though none with the newer "expression" system) and several higher-end Yamaha guitars.

The early tests (all guitars) used an old small diaphragm "pencil" condenser microphone that failed to return from lending a good while back (except for a couple of times when we did this at a friend's house and used his large-diaphragm condenser) and were recorded to a 4-track recorder using a variety of mixers eq'd flat.

The tests over the last year or so have used a Rode M3 condenser microphone and were recorded direct to digital using a Presonus USB audio interface.

In every case I've tested the UST has been compressed though often it isn't noticeable unless listening to the test recordings through headphones.

My mango tenor with MiSi received several compliments for how natural it sounded when I used it on stage at UWC 2011. Two or three people commented specifically that it sounded "like it does off stage, but louder." And these comments came unprompted, I wasn't going around asking how the uke sounded on stage. But, when I later recorded A/B against the Rode M3 when I got it about a year ago I was actually surprised by how much compression it exhibited.

I've never had the opportunity to test a D-Tar system. I'd like to as I've heard good things about them. But don't most of your D-Tar pickups actually use a soundboard transducer or microphone with the UST? That would certainly be a game changer. I find that under-soundboard pickups, even some inexpensive ones, provide much more natural sound than I've so far heard from any UST. On the other hand, they are more subject to handling noise.

John
 
Turn the master volume all the way up on the PA and bring the channel gain up until you've achieve your cleanest sounding maximum volume. You have reached your maximum headroom at this point. Next, use the master volume to lower the level. If I get the time, I'll dig up my oscilloscope out of the garage to illustrate the signal of a piezo pickup. Ric
 
I understand that many, if not most currently available pickup systems (systems includes the on-board preamp) exhibit compression...it's called clipping. It's not the pickup that's doing it, it's the underpowered buffer preamp stage. You are hearing the compression of a buffer clipping, not of the pickup. It's very important to know how to isolate these issues in order to be able to solve them.

Also, I'd be very careful about calling the effect "compression"; it's really more like peak limiting...with distortion.

In a test done by dropping a 1/2" ball bearing 12 inches directly onto a piezo film UST on a table, we have measured in excess of 100 Volts as the initial transient peak. That's with a 100 meg Ohm probe directly into an oscilloscope. No compression. I invite you to duplicate that experiment.

So OK, you're not going to get peaks like that with a pickup installed under a saddle, but you may very well get peaks well in excess of 9 Volts. That spike may only happen on the very first half cycle of string motion, but what happens to a 3 or 9 volt buffer preamp when that happens? It clips, and it then takes a little bit of time to recover. That phenomenon is a major portion of what's often referred to as "piezo quack"...it's the very first stage of preamplification clipping the peak and then recovering...politely or not so politely.

We are used to longer clipping events than this 1/2 cycle phenomenon because it's usually interstage in a chain of electronics, and it's usually sort of symmetrical. It's not with UST pickups because of how incredibly strong the first half wave of string motion is.

I have been an advocate of higher voltage on-board electronics since my Alembic days in the early 1970s. You can't go wrong with giving the pickup a good interface, and you can always pad down a signal that is clean and not clipped, but once the signal is clipped, you can never get it back.

When we (D-TAR) came out with our Timberline and Wavelength pickups, the universal comment was that we'd tamed piezo quack. There is a component of "piezo sound" which is not the technology, it's the location. Note that the B-Band pickups...which use an electret foam element...still sound like under-saddle pickups. It's because they're under-saddle pickups! You're hearing location. It's a very phase coherent sound...unlike the true acoustic output of an instrument which takes the string vibration signal and imposes all kinds of phase delays at different frequencies.

Some of the Wavelength systems...the MultiSource models...do have a mic with the lows rolled off below 200 Hz, but that's not what I put in ukes...it's just not necessary. I use the Timberline with an 18 Volt power supply, and it sounds like a nice uke.

I have put decades into learning the "secrets" of this stuff...the theory, the practice, and the limitations of many kinds of transducer designs. Oddly enough, some of my understanding of how acoustic instruments really work (as in change the vibration signature of a string into acoustic output) came from helping to design a digital acoustic instrument modeling preamp. I suffered through many epiphanies in that project which have ultimately helped me with the design of true acoustic instruments as well as in understanding transducers better.

BTW, the term "transducer" is too often limited in our world to contact pickups...soundboard transducers. Technically, a transducer is anything that transforms physical vibration into an electrical signal...or vice versa. Magnetic pickups, microphones, USTs, SBTs, loudspeakers, headphones...they're all transducers.
 
@Rick Turner - Darn you, now I'm probably going to have to spring for one of your D-TAR pickups, you enabler, you! :) If I can get the natural "open" sound of an under-soundboard rig without the handling noise I'll probably have to try it on the "last tenor I'll ever buy" that I started shopping for after returning from UWC.

The ironic thing is that I design and build tube guitar amps where I'm looking for just the opposite - lot's of smoothed overdrive accompanied by tons of compression. Well...I guess it would be more accurate to say I used to do that. Once my near vision got bad enough that I started having to work build wearing magnifiers and still ended up often taking digital macro photos of my work so I could view it at about 20 or 30x on screen to check my solder joints building became a lot less fun. I guess it's been probably four years since I built my last amp.

But, when it comes to pickup systems I want maximum clean - compression is easy to add when it's desired, pretty difficult if not impossible to remove when it's not (years ago I actually hacked an old dbx noise reduction circuit to inject a signal at the playback (expander) portion - it worked but wasn't anything to write home about).


John
 
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